Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[D-Queued]

Daily Mail coming through with the fresh new revelations that Servais Knaven was doping at TVM

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/sport...ilsford-s-zero-tolerance-policy-pressure.html

That would make this particular picture (from the article) quite an indictment:

Dave Brailsford, former director Sean Yates and Servais Knaven advise Bradley Wiggins during the 2012 Tour

Dave.

 

[The Hitch]

I didn't say you accused Cav, I said there was a thread about Cav's teeth, countering your claim that the clinic had never really gone for Cav.

After which you said "perhaps Hitch included", suggesting that I may have been a part of it which I was not.

But more importantly, im interested to hear you explain how mentioning one mock thread from 2010 with a grand total of 40 posts in 3 years, many by posters who no longer post here, counters my claim that the clinic has never gone after Cav
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=164300


Read it and see how stupid you look.

PS the Contador head thread had 10x more posts.

 

[TShame]

When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometers per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago

It is easy to make a vague accusation. What are they using that can't be uncovered with modern testing? What teams specifically are using it?

For example, look at how quickly the US track team leaped into the top in 1984 Olympics. Or look at the American riders at the Tour in 1993 versus 1994 or 95 with several riders all in the top 20. There's a serious reason for suspicion. If there is doping, who is on it? Just the top riders? It can't be cheap. Or is it teams from certain countries.

Which climbers are doing 50 kph time trials?

 

[Digger]

lol. world's biggest hypocrite dimspace jumping first onto a comment spot to complain that this has been reported before.

That didn't seem to stop dim from plagarizing a Dutch article on doping doctors by putting it through google translate and then pass it off as his own investigation.

You are one hundred percent correct about Dim and what's even worse is that there was a time when, if you spoke to him privately, he'd have spoke in another tone about Sky - as it is he's just as bad as the rest....


Will the sky lunatic defenders accept that brailsford is a liar now?

He pleaded ignorance on leinders, yet it was all on google - and now this - yet knaven stuff was all on google with years...

Finally David Walsh, tweeted this about Astana last year:

'It is very difficult to trust unrepentant former dopers.' Yates, Knaven...

 

[Robert21]

It is easy to make a vague accusation. What are they using that can't be uncovered with modern testing?

The full quote from Basson's book addresses some of the points you make.

When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

But what strikes me more than anything is the morphology of the riders. To win the Tour, it now seems you have to be very slender and have little muscle. These riders don?t look like they could do anything on a bike, but they produce the same power as those in previous generations. All notions about the power to- weight ratio seem to have been overturned.

As I mentioned above, my current position as regional anti-doping representative, with responsibility for implementing anti-doping controls on behalf of the AFLD, enables me to keep abreast of the latest news about substances that can be used by athletes for doping purposes.

Currently, questions are being asked about the extent to which products such as AICAR, GW501516, TP500 and GAS6 are being used. Some of them have already been found during searches of vehicles and have been used by some athletes, doctors and soigneurs. These substances provide an equivalent effect to EPO, because they improve the performance of the athlete by boosting the transport and utilisation of oxygen by the body. Their effect is very well known. The combination of AICAR and TP500, for example, increases the number of mitochondria in the muscles. These cells are in a way little energy plants, which transform substrates (carbohydrates, lipids, proteins) into energy through the use of oxygen. These two products also bring about an increase in lipolysis (the breakdown of ?fat? to provide energy). They maintain lipolysis during intense efforts.

To be more specific, when an athlete is riding at 80 per cent of his maximum, in principle he stops burning fat and only burns carbohydrate. By using these products, he can continue to burn fat as well as carbohydrate, even at 95 per cent of his maximum. This additional power, which stems from the use of fat reserves, offers a huge advantage. It is absolutely impossible to achieve naturally.

Meanwhile the public can see another effect of the products in the physical transformation of competitors into athletes who don?t seem very muscular and are very lean. They have a very low fat percentage because they are able to burn all their fats, including those in muscle fibres, and benefit from an increase in energy.

With regard to growth factor GAS6, this allows the secretion of endogenous EPO. It is completely undetectable.

Meanwhile, directeurs sportifs attempt to put forward rational explanations for the performances of their riders as if chanting a mantra. They talk about intense training, reconnaissance of mountain passes in the rain and the fog, about improvements in equipment ? These arguments have been heard a thousand times before. The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago with Lance Armstrong and his US Postal team, just as it did with the Festina team.

 

[Digger]

I have been saying all along, with Bobbins, that 2010 winter is key to Sky - they were off the pace that year - Brailsford was read the riot act

?I remember in 2010 thinking we were a million miles away from where we needed to be,? Brailsford said of Team Sky?s debut at Paris-Nice, an event that is one of the cornerstones of the French racing calendar and part of a stable of top events owned and run by ASO, the company behind the Tour de France. ?We didn?t even have anyone in the top ten and it felt like we had a big, big challenge ahead.

?But the following year, he [Wiggins] ran third in that really, really rainy Paris-Nice that Tony Martin [the German] won

Leinders was hired that winter


But apparently nobody can see this. It's all 'coincidence'.

 

[sniper]

I have been saying all along, with Bobbins, that 2010 winter is key to Sky - they were off the pace that year - Brailsford was read the riot act



Leinders was hired that winter


But apparently nobody can see this. It's all 'coincidence'.

Yates also joined in 2010.

Veinders may have been brought in for a variety of overlapping reasons
- arrange TUEs
- ties with Zorzoli
- mask PEDs
- microdose EPO / supervise BP-related issues
- saddle sore

Sky experimenting with PEDs seems to have started before Leinders (2010 Vuelta springs to mind)
As that turned into a fiasco, it was only logical for them to bring in an experienced doping doc.


The evidence suggests Sky was a doping project from the get-go.
Hell, BC was a doping project from the moment Brailsford took over in 2003.
From the start he has surrounded himself with dopers and skilled facilitators.
The Millar story is incredibly enlightening.

 

[JRanton]

I told you the Daily Mail were sniffing around Team Sky. They're a major news corporation rival and their readers hate cycling. They'd love nothing more than to expose Sky as a doping team.

If Knaven is the best they can do then it paints Sky in a very good light. Would anyone really argue with that logic?

 

[TailWindHome]

http://www.teamsky.com/teamsky/home/article/27420#zFkx55ITb51yUR1F.97

 

[sniper]

I told you the Daily Mail were sniffing around Team Sky. They're a major news corporation rival and their readers hate cycling. They'd love nothing more than to expose Sky as a doping team.

interesting, but I'd argue Sky have a firm grip on the media, UK libel laws do the rest.

If Knaven is the best they can do then it paints Sky in a very good light.

no it doesn't. At best it suggests even the Daily Mail's hands are firmly tied, bound by libel laws, etc.
And although the Knaven fact is small fries compared to facts such as Leinders/Zorzoli/Cookson/Yates/DeJongh/JTL/Walsh/Hayles/Millar/Henao/Armstrong/Wiggins/Froome, etc., it's still a very damning fact in its own right.
Knaven's case is incredibly telling of what Sky stand for.

 

[the sceptic]

I told you the Daily Mail were sniffing around Team Sky. They're a major news corporation rival and their readers hate cycling. They'd love nothing more than to expose Sky as a doping team.

If Knaven is the best they can do then it paints Sky in a very good light. Would anyone really argue with that logic?

Why would Knaven be the best they could do? A 5 year old could put 2 and 2 together and find out that marginal gains is nothing but a bunch of lies. And once you get to that point, the sky myth starts falling apart very quickly.

Lucky for sky, british journalists are almost as dumb as all the fanboys who frequent this forum.

 

[JimmyFingers]

After which you said "perhaps Hitch included", suggesting that I may have been a part of it which I was not.

But more importantly, im interested to hear you explain how mentioning one mock thread from 2010 with a grand total of 40 posts in 3 years, many by posters who no longer post here, counters my claim that the clinic has never gone after Cav
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=164300


Read it and see how stupid you look.

PS the Contador head thread had 10x more posts.

Yes I'm the one who looks stupid unlike you who complained about 'trolls' lumping members of the clinic together and then lumped members of the clinic together. Yeah, thick as a post me.

And yet again, the 'perhaps Hitch included' meant you laid claim to impartiality rather than were part of that thread. You need to slow down, read what is posted, think really hard about what it means, then respond. Just saying.

 

[Bronstein]

If Knaven is the best they can do then it paints Sky in a very good light. Would anyone really argue with that logic?

Knaven is the best they can do because people usually act in accordance with their self interest:

As the MoS found, a culture of silence remains in place in cycling. We spoke to former riders and coaches across several teams, including some still serving long bans and, as one of them told the MoS: ?Why would I now inform on my former colleagues and friends who doped? There?s no incentive.?

 

[ebandit]

firy ****

A 5 year old could put 2 and 2 together and find out that marginal gains is nothing but a bunch of lies. And once you get to that point, the sky myth starts falling apart very quickly.

not lies at all................at worst............a smokescreen

Mark L

 

[ebandit]

light

Yates also joined in 2010.


The evidence suggests Sky was a doping project from the get-go.
Hell, BC was a doping project from the moment Brailsford took over in 2003.
From the start he has surrounded himself with dopers and skilled facilitators.
The Millar story is incredibly enlightening.

BC a doping project from 2003?.............I wait to hear the truth............

as to surrounding themselves with dopers how could an experienced management/coaching team not include those with doping links?

Mark L

 

[neineinei]

not lies at all................at worst............a smokescreen

Mark L

Smokescreen is the new transparant.

 

[veganrob]

BC a doping project from 2003?.............I wait to hear the truth............

as to surrounding themselves with dopers how could an experienced management/coaching team not include those with doping links?

Mark L

Ask Brailsford. He has all the answers.

 

[ebandit]

singlet

Ask Brailsford. He has all the answers.

............and vested interests so hardly likely that DB would share any

'dark secrets'..............so who's next?

Mark L

 

[Benotti69]

Daily Mail coming through with the fresh new revelations that Servais Knaven was doping at TVM

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/sport...ilsford-s-zero-tolerance-policy-pressure.html

If Knaven does not get kicked off Sky for his doping it will give more lies to Sky's so called ZTP.

So Sky has a liar working for them, par for the course at Sky and the rest of the sport.

 

[bobbins]

I told you the Daily Mail were sniffing around Team Sky. They're a major news corporation rival and their readers hate cycling. They'd love nothing more than to expose Sky as a doping team.

If Knaven is the best they can do then it paints Sky in a very good light. Would anyone really argue with that logic?

It's just going to take a bit of digging. Any journalist with half a brain could read this forum then go away and find people to corroborate things and bingo - down it comes.

The problem is, Sky have the cycling press in its pocket and the mainstream media want it spoon fed to them rather than go and find it.

 

[HIF I A]

After signing the zero-tolerance-bull****-thing:

 

[arvc40]

After signing the zero-tolerance-bull****-thing:

Shhh !.Dont mention those guys !. Rod Ellingworth is the top man who conducts all victories. ****ing joke.

 

[TheSpud]

That would make this particular picture (from the article) quite an indictment:

Dave Brailsford, former director Sean Yates and Servais Knaven advise Bradley Wiggins during the 2012 Tour

Dave.

I'm interested to know why you think this is such an indictment? After all, the Knaven issues have been well known for ages and the fact he was on the 2012 Tour team is presumably well known. I remember seeing TV coverage from inside the car on the Champs Elysee with Yates, can't remember if Knavens was with him though. A photo now showing it doesn't really add anything in my view.

I guess DB can claim that they are adhering with ZTP since Knaven was never sanctioned and has presumably denied the lot (and these new allegations have been reviewed, albeit very quickly), although in my view that is pushing it somewhat. I note he has said "I have never knowingly doped" - interesting choice of words.

Also interesting about some of the other substances that weren't illegal at the time - again this is where I believe Sky firmly operate, the "grey areas" (e.g. Tramadol in the past, etc.).

As a slight OT, is there any credence in the possibility that in the mid/late 90s riders may have been doped by the teams without really knowing it (or at least being stupidly / purposely na?ve)? Along the lines of "these are vitamins / acids to help you recover"?

 

[sniper]

............and vested interests so hardly likely that DB would share any

'dark secrets'..............so who's next?

Mark L

cycling, doping, 'dark secrets'?

dark the cave you've been living in.

 

[Digger]

I'm interested to know why you think this is such an indictment? After all, the Knaven issues have been well known for ages and the fact he was on the 2012 Tour team is presumably well known. I remember seeing TV coverage from inside the car on the Champs Elysee with Yates, can't remember if Knavens was with him though. A photo now showing it doesn't really add anything in my view.

I guess DB can claim that they are adhering with ZTP since Knaven was never sanctioned and has presumably denied the lot (and these new allegations have been reviewed, albeit very quickly), although in my view that is pushing it somewhat. I note he has said "I have never knowingly doped" - interesting choice of words.

Also interesting about some of the other substances that weren't illegal at the time - again this is where I believe Sky firmly operate, the "grey areas" (e.g. Tramadol in the past, etc.).

As a slight OT, is there any credence in the possibility that in the mid/late 90s riders may have been doped by the teams without really knowing it (or at least being stupidly / purposely na?ve)? Along the lines of "these are vitamins / acids to help you recover"?

Jesus Christ......