Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[TheGame]

That didn't seem to stop dim from plagarizing a Dutch article on doping doctors by putting it through google translate and then pass it off as his own investigation.

Hitch, deary, as you well know, that peice was borne out of a discussion thread on VR that went on for some time and used multiple sources, mostly dopeology, and if you did your research you would have discovered that some of "zaaks" edits were done AFTER they were discussed on VR.

You are one hundred percent correct about Dim and what's even worse is that there was a time when, if you spoke to him privately, he'd have spoke in another tone about Sky - as it is he's just as bad as the rest....

Digger, yes, we had discussions at great length, who was the first one to tell you about CO doping at Sky? Who was the first one to tell you about exactly how they abused cortisone with dates, races and details? but who also told you he was digging quietly, looking for hard evidence?

And who blew that by totally betraying my trust and stating certain things I had explicity told you not to say in public because it would blow my sources. Who just couldnt keep his big mouth shut until I had more information.

Im still digging, just as I always was, but its made harder because of someone who instead of respecting the fact I was digging, and keeping quiet about "certain info" until it could be dug into further, managed to betray that trust and blab.

Why do you think I dont share ANYTHING with you any more.

As for Knaven, of course he doped at TVM, either knowingly or unknowingly, we have known this for years. And of course Brailsford has ignored it, we have known that for years as well.

Dim

 

[the sceptic]

Jesus Christ......

sky fans really are a special kind of dumb.

 

[TheSpud]

as to surrounding themselves with dopers how could an experienced management/coaching team not include those with doping links?

Mark L

And that's the problem with the ZTP thing. Possible I think to argue about Jullich being unknown, but Knavens had already been embroiled in a doping scandal. Yates had a 'dodgy' A sample early in his career.

Its strange that DB didn't actually come out and just admit that they needed to relax ZTP (yes I know a lot of you don't believe it ever existed) to be able to recruit experienced DS / coaches / etc. I think that would have made their position a lot easier / more believable.

 

[Benotti69]

And that's the problem with the ZTP thing. Possible I think to argue about Jullich being unknown, but Knavens had already been embroiled in a doping scandal. Yates had a 'dodgy' A sample early in his career.

Its strange that DB didn't actually come out and just admit that they needed to relax ZTP (yes I know a lot of you don't believe it ever existed) to be able to recruit experienced DS / coaches / etc. I think that would have made their position a lot easier / more believable.

Knavens has been caught lying FFS!

And Sky have no problem with the fact that he doped. Domo Farm Frites, 1st 2nd and 3rd of a 2001 Paris Roubaix podium and Knaven's the winner! Do you really think he thought oh this is not doping, a clean sweep, we were just lucky!!!

Yet again Sky twist and spin and they expect people with half a braint o believe they are clean. HAHAHAHAHA!

 

[TheSpud]

sky fans really are a special kind of dumb.

So you're saying its completely impossible for someone to be injected with something and not know whats in it? And I did say it was OT.

 

[TheSpud]

Knavens has been caught lying FFS!

And Sky have no problem with the fact that he doped. Domo Farm Frites, 1st 2nd and 3rd of a 2001 Paris Roubaix podium and Knaven's the winner! Do you really think he thought oh this is not doping, a clean sweep, we were just lucky!!!

Yet again Sky twist and spin and they expect people with half a braint o believe they are clean. HAHAHAHAHA!

No, I agree that this is what makes the ZTP thing a fallacy - I didn't say I agreed with DB's position that he may take, in fact the opposite.

 

[Chaddy]

So you're saying its completely impossible for someone to be injected with something and not know whats in it? And I did say it was OT.

Ex Ireland football Tony Cascarino has an interesting story about such a thing when he was playing for Marseille in the mid 90's.

 

[TheSpud]

Ex Ireland football Tony Cascarino has an interesting story about such a thing when he was playing for Marseille in the mid 90's.

Thank you - a sensible reply. Now for some googling ...

 

[sniper]

So you're saying its completely impossible for someone to be injected with something and not know whats in it? And I did say it was OT.

I think there might be isolated cases where people didn't know whether or not a certain oral product was illegal, and perhaps isolated cases where oral doping products were added to bidons without riders knowing.
but no rider, no matter how stupid, can seriously believe you get vitamins injected intravenously.
Imo, as a trend, most riders tend to know what they get into their bodies. And they have a great incentive to know. After all, you wouldn't want to get caught, now would ya.

 

[TheSpud]

If Knaven does not get kicked off Sky for his doping it will give more lies to Sky's so called ZTP.

So Sky has a liar working for them, par for the course at Sky and the rest of the sport.

How do you interpret the statement of theirs about checking out the allegations with external anti doping doctors? Do you think they are referring to the latest ones (only published this morning) or previous stuff?

I guess they could have been given a heads up earlier. Typically in the UK if that happens its usually only a few days before - there have been numerous stories that could have been published about sportsmen / politicians in the Sunday rag that have been 'gagged' by a judge at the last minute, usually on a Friday.

If this new stuff is over and above what has been available before then I would be unhappy if Knavens didn't leave.

 

[Benotti69]

Ex Ireland football Tony Cascarino has an interesting story about such a thing when he was playing for Marseille in the mid 90's.

Cascarino knew he was being injected with Cortisone for his knees. Otherwise he couldn't play a match.

Kimmage wrote Cascarino's autobiography.

 

[Chaddy]

Cascarino knew he was being injected with Cortisone for his knees. Otherwise he couldn't play a match.

Kimmage wrote Cascarino's autobiography.

That may be a different story because he said the doctor told him it would give him an adrenalin boost
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/cascarino-claims-i-took-suspect-drugs-in-marseille-25918750.html

 

[TheSpud]

I think there might be isolated cases where people didn't know whether or not a certain oral product was illegal, and perhaps isolated cases where oral doping products were added to bidons without riders knowing.
but no rider, no matter how stupid, can seriously believe you get vitamins injected intravenously.
Imo, as a trend, most riders tend to know what they get into their bodies. And they have a great incentive to know. After all, you wouldn't want to get caught, now would ya.

Yep, fair comment - I can imagine the oral 'additions' were quiet widespread, drop some testosterone or whatever in to a drink.

However, I thought there were vitamin (or Iron) injections that were used in the past? It wouldn't surprise me if some of the riders didn't ask too many questions - they're (often) not the sharpest knives in the block, and also if the team were in charge then they may have just been happy that all was above board (again naively).

 

[sniper]

Yep, fair comment - I can imagine the oral 'additions' were quiet widespread, drop some testosterone or whatever in to a drink.

However, I thought there were vitamin (or Iron) injections that were used in the past? It wouldn't surprise me if some of the riders didn't ask too many questions - they're (often) not the sharpest knives in the block, and also if the team were in charge then they may have just been happy that all was above board (again naively).

but was there ever a rider who got caught and then blamed his team doctor?
i've heared this in other sports (i think recently in swimming there was a case) but in cycling i've never heard that.

 

[Benotti69]

That may be a different story because he said the doctor told him it would give him an adrenalin boost
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/cascarino-claims-i-took-suspect-drugs-in-marseille-25918750.html

I actually remember Cas telling the story it on the radio, how he did little training and every morning he could barely get out of bed. He regrets the amount of cortisone he got injected into his knees.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2000/nov/05/newsstory.sport13

.... I've had two cortisone injections already this season. For the past eight years I've taken anti-inflammatory pills before and after every game. ......

 

[TheSpud]

Cascarino knew he was being injected with Cortisone for his knees. Otherwise he couldn't play a match.

Kimmage wrote Cascarino's autobiography.

Presumably as an 'accepted use' or TUE type of thing. Andrew Flintoff was getting the same some years back (nightly from memory) - during the Ashes I think. I remember thinking that was odd - I think in the UK the guidance is no more than 2 intra-joint (same joint) injections per year.

We are going a bit OT - happy for Mods to move this to 'doping in other sports' if deemed appropriate.

 

[ebandit]

twisty

Knavens has been caught lying FFS!

Yet again Sky twist and spin and they expect people with half a brain to believe they are clean. HAHAHAHAHA!

allegations suggest that knavens is not being truthful..............he states 'i
never knowingly doped'

i have enough of a brain to spot your twisting of facts / insults

Mark L

 

[Benotti69]

'Accepted use', 'TUE', it is all doping in he real world, but in sporting terms part of the fabric of sport............

 

[Benotti69]

allegations suggest that knavens is not being truthful..............he states 'i
never knowingly doped'

i have enough of a brain to spot your twisting of facts / insults

Mark L

Have you read Knaven's 1998 statement to French Police?

Have you compared that to the statement yesterday?

Use that 'enough of a brain' of yours to spot the lies......

 

[TheSpud]

but was there ever a rider who got caught and then blamed his team doctor?
i've heared this in other sports (i think recently in swimming there was a case) but in cycling i've never heard that.

No - they normally deny, deny, deny.

The Omerta causes that, don't bite the hand that feeds. Or in England (esp in the North) - "you don't *** on your own doorstep"!

 

[TShame]

The full quote from Basson's book addresses some of the points you make.

Thanks for that full quote.

 

[sniper]

Have you read Knaven's 1998 statement to French Police?

Have you compared that to the statement yesterday?

Use that 'enough of a brain' of yours to spot the lies......

exactly.
back then he didn't contest the findings, said he didn't know, iow, he admitted that he may have been doped.

now he somehow knows he never doped.

i feel pretty dumb having to spell it out to the likes of ebandit.

 

[sniper]

No - they normally deny, deny, deny.

The Omerta causes that, don't bite the hand that feeds. Or in England (esp in the North) - "you don't *** on your own doorstep"!

knaven didn't deny.
said he didn't know.
now, 16, 17 years later he denies.

 

[TheSpud]

'Accepted use', 'TUE', it is all doping in he real world, but in sporting terms part of the fabric of sport............

Indeed, but remember that the vast majority who follow sport (be it generally, a team, a club, a player / rider) don't see that. They see what are the rules and what is 'allowed' (TUE or otherwise) - and there in lies a huge debate. One that is outside this thread.

 

[TheSpud]

knaven didn't deny.
said he didn't know.
now, 16, 17 years later he denies.

TBH, I don't know the Knavens story fully - I need to google more. In general though it is "deny deny" - look at Landis.