Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[pastronef]

Re: Sky

look at Mo's earmuffs ‏@twitter
www.twitter.com/140CharTerror

he went and dug up and re-tweeted some 2011 tweets by Team Sky about Appollonio race results

strange he did not re-tweet any Ag2r tweets from 2013-2014.

so strange


that's the Sky obsession I was wondering about

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Sky

look at Mo's earmuffs ‏@twitter
http://www.twitter.com/140CharTerror

he went and dug up and re-tweeted some 2011 tweets by Team Sky about Appollonio race results

strange he did not re-tweet any Ag2r tweets from 2013-2014.

so strange


that's the Sky obsession I was wondering about

Perhaps you could dig up the countless Ag2r claims that clean riders will beat doped riders?

Should be simples, right?

 

[pastronef]

Re: Sky

look at Mo's earmuffs ‏@twitter
http://www.twitter.com/140CharTerror

he went and dug up and re-tweeted some 2011 tweets by Team Sky about Appollonio race results

strange he did not re-tweet any Ag2r tweets from 2013-2014.

so strange


that's the Sky obsession I was wondering about

Perhaps you could dig up the countless Ag2r claims that clean riders will beat doped riders?

Should be simples, right?

my post could look naive, I am aware of all the stuff Sky says

but I don't see any connection of Appollonio getting suspended in 2015 and him riding for Sky in 2011.

ok, anything to blast Sky, they deserve what they get for talking out of their a$$es, but sometimes it's a Sky obsession I see on the web.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Sky

look at Mo's earmuffs ‏@twitter
http://www.twitter.com/140CharTerror

he went and dug up and re-tweeted some 2011 tweets by Team Sky about Appollonio race results

strange he did not re-tweet any Ag2r tweets from 2013-2014.

so strange


that's the Sky obsession I was wondering about

Perhaps you could dig up the countless Ag2r claims that clean riders will beat doped riders?

Should be simples, right?

my post could look naive, I am aware of all the stuff Sky says

but I don't see any connection of Appollonio getting suspended in 2015 and him riding for Sky in 2011.

ok, anything to blast Sky, they deserve what they get for talking out of their a$$es, but sometimes it's a Sky obsession I see on the web.

People generally see what they look for, and hear what they listen for.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Sky

look at Mo's earmuffs ‏@twitter
http://www.twitter.com/140CharTerror

he went and dug up and re-tweeted some 2011 tweets by Team Sky about Appollonio race results

strange he did not re-tweet any Ag2r tweets from 2013-2014.

so strange


that's the Sky obsession I was wondering about

Perhaps you could dig up the countless Ag2r claims that clean riders will beat doped riders?

Should be simples, right?

my post could look naive, I am aware of all the stuff Sky says

but I don't see any connection of Appollonio getting suspended in 2015 and him riding for Sky in 2011.

ok, anything to blast Sky, they deserve what they get for talking out of their a$$es, but sometimes it's a Sky obsession I see on the web.

People generally see what they look for, and hear what they listen for.

can't deny that
I'll try not to clic on the Clinic for these next 3 weeks, and enjoy the race

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Firstly I was talking most of last week about Nicki -

Secondly, I don't see Contador fans or Astana fans going to the extremes that Sky fans do when I say they are doping - Sky fans are a disgrace and I have seen it first hand what some are capable of.

Tbf, not all of them are that bad. The Vickers, dels, moores of this world are a vocal minority

 

[ebandit]

all

Secondly, I don't see Contador fans or Astana fans going to the extremes that Sky fans do when I say they are doping - Sky fans are a disgrace and I have seen it first hand what some are capable of.

why judge all team sky fans for the action of a few............................?

if there is a 'disgrace' it is team sky doping under a ztp.................perhaps you

could consider your own stance ..........stating doping as a fact........when it

remains a belief...................

Mark L

 

[Benotti69]

Re: all

Secondly, I don't see Contador fans or Astana fans going to the extremes that Sky fans do when I say they are doping - Sky fans are a disgrace and I have seen it first hand what some are capable of.

why judge all team sky fans for the action of a few............................?

if there is a 'disgrace' it is team sky doping under a ztp.................perhaps you

could consider your own stance ..........stating doping as a fact........when it

remains a belief...................

Mark L

posted like a true skyfan................. Armstrong's fans sited the same denials due to no facts...... C'mon Mark, say it "Froome and Wiggins never tested positive".............you know you want too............

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

I don't think "I fired at the guy", just said Froome had a better GT debut thats all

Sastre crashed twice in the first week and rode through the injuries. He had a couple of nice rides in the mountains though IIRC

He did?

He had?

I think 50 something was his best place on a mountain stage in that Giro.

It's been 16 years, but I don't recall him doing anything that would class as a nice ride.

 

[Metabolol]

What does ztp mean?

 

[ebandit]

cheap

Secondly, I don't see Contador fans or Astana fans going to the extremes that Sky fans do when I say they are doping - Sky fans are a disgrace and I have seen it first hand what some are capable of.

why judge all team sky fans for the action of a few............................?

if there is a 'disgrace' it is team sky doping under a ztp.................perhaps you

could consider your own stance ..........stating doping as a fact........when it

remains a belief...................

Mark L

posted like a true skyfan................. Armstrong's fans sited the same denials due to no facts...... C'mon Mark, say it "Froome and Wiggins never tested positive".............you know you want too............

benny...........that's a cheap shot ...........i hope for better.......

i know the relationship between tests / positives as well as yourself..............it is my

belief that team sky are doing something dodgy along the way but still................

i'm not absolutely sure

Mark L

 

[ebandit]

zero

What does ztp mean?

zero tolerance procedure................... no former dopers/enablers on the staff no ifs ...

no buts

hence after USADA reasoned decision etc many team sky staff were forced to 'fess up' and

depart

Mark L

 

[mrhender]

Re:

What does ztp mean?

zero turnover -err tolerance policy....

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You can compare winning Subida a Gorla with Anatomic Jock Race though...

uhhhh

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

I don't think "I fired at the guy", just said Froome had a better GT debut thats all

Sastre crashed twice in the first week and rode through the injuries. He had a couple of nice rides in the mountains though IIRC

He did?

He had?

I think 50 something was his best place on a mountain stage in that Giro.

It's been 16 years, but I don't recall him doing anything that would class as a nice ride.

I don't recall either, wasn't watching back then, but then with Jalabert up in 4th on the GC, he could have done a good job for JaJa on some climbs then sat up I guess? Remember that the Alpe d'Huez stage in 2008, the one day people liked to point to to say that Froome showed GC potential back in his debut Tour, he finished 31st (including Kohl) and nearly 12 minutes down and was detached from the heads of state just after Johan van Summeren.

Either way, the crashes give context. Looking at Sastre, even despite the rather inauspicious debut, he followed that with top 10s in Spanish short stage races and mountainous one-day races, building up to breaking out at the 2000 Vuelta. We aren't dealing with a Melcior Mauri here. If Froome had managed to show something along the lines of his Tour 2008-Giro 2009 development continuing, people would be much more willing to accept him. As I've said before, looking at those results had me thinking he could be a decent mountain domestique. I had a guy like Chris Anker Sørensen or Egoi Martínez in mind as the kind of rider he could become if things went well. He wasn't Wiggins in respect of total climbing schmuck turned goat, but he was a Bernhard Kohl in respect of sudden ability turned on like a lightswitch (and Kohl was doping long before the 2008 Tour as well of course). We just can't un-see his results going backwards for two and a half years then suddenly enabling God mode, bilharzia or no bilharzia.

 

[Knutsen]

Re: Re:

as bolded, I'd be curious to see which results were as protected team leader going for the GC win vs any domestique duties or other race targets...

let's face it, who finished higher as a GT debut is pretty meaningless if the rider wasn't going for the win, but just part of the team crew...

This. Witch make these "trends" about useless.

 

[armchairclimber]

Valverde has a pretty near perfect trajectory for a clean rider.

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

Valverde has a pretty near perfect trajectory for a clean rider.

Well.., it might sound silly, but he could be one of the cleaner guys out of that group

 

[ciranda]

Re: Re:

I don't think "I fired at the guy", just said Froome had a better GT debut thats all

Sastre crashed twice in the first week and rode through the injuries. He had a couple of nice rides in the mountains though IIRC

He did?

He had?

I think 50 something was his best place on a mountain stage in that Giro.

It's been 16 years, but I don't recall him doing anything that would class as a nice ride.

I don't recall either, wasn't watching back then, but then with Jalabert up in 4th on the GC, he could have done a good job for JaJa on some climbs then sat up I guess? Remember that the Alpe d'Huez stage in 2008, the one day people liked to point to to say that Froome showed GC potential back in his debut Tour, he finished 31st (including Kohl) and nearly 12 minutes down and was detached from the heads of state just after Johan van Summeren.

Either way, the crashes give context. Looking at Sastre, even despite the rather inauspicious debut, he followed that with top 10s in Spanish short stage races and mountainous one-day races, building up to breaking out at the 2000 Vuelta. We aren't dealing with a Melcior Mauri here. If Froome had managed to show something along the lines of his Tour 2008-Giro 2009 development continuing, people would be much more willing to accept him. As I've said before, looking at those results had me thinking he could be a decent mountain domestique. I had a guy like Chris Anker Sørensen or Egoi Martínez in mind as the kind of rider he could become if things went well. He wasn't Wiggins in respect of total climbing schmuck turned goat, but he was a Bernhard Kohl in respect of sudden ability turned on like a lightswitch (and Kohl was doping long before the 2008 Tour as well of course). We just can't un-see his results going backwards for two and a half years then suddenly enabling God mode, bilharzia or no bilharzia.

CAS is so underrated still. He’s had some rough years and on Sunday even said he had lost faith, so lately it's been with some reason I guess. I hope the title will be a turning point for him, he needs to change teams. In his best victories, Giro stage and Dauphine stage, he beat the peloton as the only survivor from huge breakaways. In these situations he is very very strong in top condition. Like TDF 2012 where he was super unlucky on three occasions. The stage to Bagnères-de-Luchon as second to an unbelievable Voeckler never seen again from 38 riders in the break. The day after CAS destroyed his hand when he was in the break and would probably have won the stage easily. On the Planche des Belles Filles stage he was also in the break that was only caught because of a crazy decision by Garmin to chase for Daniel Martin.

I think the mention of him in this context is very unfair to Chris, the real one. I never noticed Froome until Tour de Suisse 2011 where he was sometimes visible in the pictures from the mountain stages getting dropped with thirty riders left. That was his some of his best performances until that point so you could argue he was still getting better but the improvement from there to the Vuelta was unreal and unbelievable.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

I don't think "I fired at the guy", just said Froome had a better GT debut thats all

Sastre crashed twice in the first week and rode through the injuries. He had a couple of nice rides in the mountains though IIRC

He did?

He had?

I think 50 something was his best place on a mountain stage in that Giro.

It's been 16 years, but I don't recall him doing anything that would class as a nice ride.

I don't recall either, wasn't watching back then, but then with Jalabert up in 4th on the GC, he could have done a good job for JaJa on some climbs then sat up I guess? Remember that the Alpe d'Huez stage in 2008, the one day people liked to point to to say that Froome showed GC potential back in his debut Tour, he finished 31st (including Kohl) and nearly 12 minutes down and was detached from the heads of state just after Johan van Summeren.

Either way, the crashes give context. Looking at Sastre, even despite the rather inauspicious debut, he followed that with top 10s in Spanish short stage races and mountainous one-day races, building up to breaking out at the 2000 Vuelta. We aren't dealing with a Melcior Mauri here. If Froome had managed to show something along the lines of his Tour 2008-Giro 2009 development continuing, people would be much more willing to accept him. As I've said before, looking at those results had me thinking he could be a decent mountain domestique. I had a guy like Chris Anker Sørensen or Egoi Martínez in mind as the kind of rider he could become if things went well. He wasn't Wiggins in respect of total climbing schmuck turned goat, but he was a Bernhard Kohl in respect of sudden ability turned on like a lightswitch (and Kohl was doping long before the 2008 Tour as well of course). We just can't un-see his results going backwards for two and a half years then suddenly enabling God mode, bilharzia or no bilharzia.

CAS is so underrated still. He’s had some rough years and on Sunday even said he had lost faith, so lately it's been with some reason I guess. I hope the title will be a turning point for him, he needs to change teams. In his best victories, Giro stage and Dauphine stage, he beat the peloton as the only survivor from huge breakaways. In these situations he is very very strong in top condition. Like TDF 2012 where he was super unlucky on three occasions. The stage to Bagnères-de-Luchon as second to an unbelievable Voeckler never seen again from 38 riders in the break. The day after CAS destroyed his hand when he was in the break and would probably have won the stage easily. On the Planche des Belles Filles stage he was also in the break that was only caught because of a crazy decision by Garmin to chase for Daniel Martin.

I think the mention of him in this context is very unfair to Chris, the real one. I never noticed Froome until Tour de Suisse 2011 where he was sometimes visible in the pictures from the mountain stages getting dropped with thirty riders left. That was his some of his best performances until that point so you could argue he was still getting better but the improvement from there to the Vuelta was unreal and unbelievable.

I'm not disagreeing that the improvement at the 2011 Vuelta was unreal and unbelievable, because it really was something.

I was meaning that the Froome of the vintage that had some decent stages from the break comparatively late in GTs (eg the San Luca stage of the 2009 Giro) could have developed into somebody like CAS - a good strong but not élite climbing domestique, who can be quite effective getting into breaks and/or stagehunting in tough stages. And that was the "if he continues to develop well" scenario, not the "this is probably what will happen" scenario. Augustyn was the best African climber on that Barloworld team!!!

 

[Benotti69]

Re: cheap

Secondly, I don't see Contador fans or Astana fans going to the extremes that Sky fans do when I say they are doping - Sky fans are a disgrace and I have seen it first hand what some are capable of.

why judge all team sky fans for the action of a few............................?

if there is a 'disgrace' it is team sky doping under a ztp.................perhaps you

could consider your own stance ..........stating doping as a fact........when it

remains a belief...................

Mark L

posted like a true skyfan................. Armstrong's fans sited the same denials due to no facts...... C'mon Mark, say it "Froome and Wiggins never tested positive".............you know you want too............

benny...........that's a cheap shot ...........i hope for better.......

i know the relationship between tests / positives as well as yourself..............it is my

belief that team sky are doing something dodgy along the way but still................

i'm not absolutely sure

Mark L

We are talking professional cycling. We are talking a team that lied and lied some more and you are "not absolutely sure", yet they can beat the dopers and you're "not absolutely sure"..............jeez, what do you want to see the syringe in the arm? FFS!!!

 

[BYOP88]

Re: cheap

Secondly, I don't see Contador fans or Astana fans going to the extremes that Sky fans do when I say they are doping - Sky fans are a disgrace and I have seen it first hand what some are capable of.

why judge all team sky fans for the action of a few............................?

if there is a 'disgrace' it is team sky doping under a ztp.................perhaps you

could consider your own stance ..........stating doping as a fact........when it

remains a belief...................

Mark L

posted like a true skyfan................. Armstrong's fans sited the same denials due to no facts...... C'mon Mark, say it "Froome and Wiggins never tested positive".............you know you want too............

benny...........that's a cheap shot ...........i hope for better.......

i know the relationship between tests / positives as well as yourself..............it is my

belief that team sky are doing something dodgy along the way but still................

i'm not absolutely sure

Mark L

We are talking professional cycling. We are talking a team that lied and lied some more and you are "not absolutely sure", yet they can beat the dopers and you're "not absolutely sure"..............jeez, what do you want to see the syringe in the arm? FFS!!!

They do say, 'seeing is believing', but I'm sure some still wouldn't believe.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

I don't think "I fired at the guy", just said Froome had a better GT debut thats all

Sastre crashed twice in the first week and rode through the injuries. He had a couple of nice rides in the mountains though IIRC

He did?

He had?

I think 50 something was his best place on a mountain stage in that Giro.

It's been 16 years, but I don't recall him doing anything that would class as a nice ride.

You're right, I was thinking of Sastre's first Vuelta.

 

[ebandit]

honestly? if team sky say we're clean.........and detractors are unable to prove otherwise there must

be doubt

the pompous self righteous attitude of some is another factor which causes problems

Mark L

 

[pastronef]

Re:

honestly? if team sky say we're clean.........and detractors are unable to prove otherwise there must

be doubt

the pompous self righteous attitude of some is another factor which causes problems

Mark L

Ebandit, as much as I don't like detractors who bark at anything Sky do, I think you are believing a bit too much in Sky.
they are not clean, they are on the juice like the other team.