Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

"Of course a company can avoid making a profit by paying the money out to its staff but in the case of Team Sky it seems they operate instead by drawing down on cash from Sky UK and others as and when it’s needed rather than the alternative model used by some teams which rent out naming rights and jersey space in return for a settled sum per year. Now onto the money that flows into the team’s coffers."

Gives the impression its bottomless ...

I have no beef with you - we disagree, we are debating, we haven't (quite) descended to a p1ssing match, so maybe lets leave it there ?

So the sky fan site inrring is wrong and spud is right.

Gotcha.

Yes, let's leave it there.

Stupid comment.

They said "it seems they are" - so they don't know.

Regardless, to say Sky have a big budget and it allows them to ride faster uphill than Tinkov or BMC just doesn't gel with me at all.

So it doesnt allow them to get the best people : coaches, chefs, nutrionalists? Ok - thats your view.

But I thought (according to you and others) that Sky were the Aicar/GW1516 team? The drug that costs mega mega bucks (€0.5m per rider has been quoted) - so surely thats where budget would come in to it? So if you have the money you can buy it, if you dont you cant buy it.

So what is it then? Budget doesn't affect performance (as above) or its does because that's the only way you can afford Aicar/GW1516?

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

What Spud says is in line with what Tinkov is trying to claim and explain in the link wendy posted.

A Murdoch Empire backed cycling entity would have a distinct financial advantage over BMC and Tinkov or any other team.

But it is irrelevant when it comes to performance.

Tinkov is saying the Sky financial model gives it a huge advantage. He cites innovative technology and investing in younger riders with potential.

In the broadest terms this is precisely about performance, if it isn't then what is it about?

At the same time, i'll accept anybody's opinion who views individual performances of individual Sky riders with suspicion.

Hallelujah!

 

[samhocking]

Maybe British Cycling had £0.5m per rider for their Aicar/GW1516 Olympic Success too lol.
You can't pick the finances of Sky apart without including British Cycling's of the last 20 years. Team Sky is merely the Pro Tour arm of British Cycling, but the sports science and knowledge Team Sky have access to dates back to 1992 and what Boardman & Keen started. The relationship is less now of course because the team gets more multinational each year, but Brailsford said Team Sky only happened because Team GB couldn't compete in Tour de France.
Whatever the reason you believe for British Cyclings progress and success over 20 years on the Track, to simply gloss over it is to remove much of where and how and why Team Sky started and it's more significant that it's given credit for in my understanding anyway.

 

[jalep]

One has the time for what is required and the financial security to afford what it takes to turn a lot of donkey's into racehorses if they need to and keep them performing well over time or replace them with other prospects - rotate them in or out as necessary.

Rotating the super doms in and out on the road, whether it requires climbers, all rounders, tt'ers whatever is needed so there is no weaknesses in the Sky machine.....that's the plan, an expensive one, but they can afford such a deep bench. Costs a lot to develop and sustain these guys. Some are going work out, some are not, but they can afford the risks. That's what money allows. Oh plus the media machine to keep them heroes in the public eye....if at all possible.

The recruiting for rotating in and out to supplant the Sky train machine is described by Brailsford himself.
As described in the Guardian yesterday from the Sir DB:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jul/27/dave-brailsford-team-sky-chris-froome-tour-de-france-2015-win?CMP=twt_gu

In Tinkov's opinion it does not bode well for the sport of cycling - see link wendy posted.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

What Spud says is in line with what Tinkov is trying to claim and explain in the link wendy posted.

A Murdoch Empire backed cycling entity would have a distinct financial advantage over BMC and Tinkov or any other team.

But it is irrelevant when it comes to performance.

oleg-tinkov-chapeau-to-team-sky-but-theyre-going-to-kill-the-business ...the cycling news article = link wendy posted earlier.

You don't think there is an advantage when it comes to performance having a 5- 10 yr. budget and ability to be secure planning into the future? That's the very point Tinkov is making.

The key point there is "having time to develop riders".

They did not develop Froome. He went from zero to hero.

They did not develop Wiggo. He went from 4th to nothing.

Their budget is not what is winning them grand tours.

 

[Lyon]

The money is best put to use in acquiring, transporting and administering drugs, keeping riders so and so values under certain limits etc. Safety and predictability - that's the real marginal gain.

When other teams are desperately hiding their loot by the roadside, Sky is just cruising by in their motorhomes, waiving sheepishly.

 

[jalep]

Re:

The money is best put to use in acquiring, transporting and administering drugs, keeping riders so and so values under certain limits etc. Safety and predictability - that's the real marginal gain.

When other teams are desperately hiding their loot by the roadside, Sky is just cruising by in their motorhomes, waiving sheepishly.

Yes, having the money secured, a longer time to plan, and being able to offer doping, nutrition, training on an individual basis to each cyclist would be the optimal situation as opposed to a team-wide project or hiring someone and advising them to "do what they do" in regards to doping. The designer plan would be safer, more discreet, easier to monitor and control individual behaviors and progress.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

The money is best put to use in acquiring, transporting and administering drugs, keeping riders so and so values under certain limits etc. Safety and predictability - that's the real marginal gain.

When other teams are desperately hiding their loot by the roadside, Sky is just cruising by in their motorhomes, waiving sheepishly.

Yes, having the money secured, a longer time to plan, and being able to offer doping, nutrition, training on an individual basis to each cyclist would be the optimal situation as opposed to a team-wide project or hiring someone and advising them to "do what they do" in regards to doping. The designer plan would be safer, more discreet, easier to monitor and control individual behaviors and progress.

You've basically described British Cycling's Olympic Development Programme. Other than any proof of the doping bit, everything is pretty much what happens to a rider in British Cycling. Everything including timing is aimed at each rider reaching their maximum potential for a given objective/goal. I think this is how Peter Keen described it anyway.

 

[Benotti69]

People quoting Tinkoff for truth are insane.

Sky are so good at hiring people that a Masseure died in Spain. Great team docs. Brailsford then used that death as an excuse to hire Leinders.

The idea that Sky spend their budget well on the people they hire is not true. They got rid of lots they hired in the beginning. Now they are hiring Palfreeman back after letting him go to get Leinders.

 

[samhocking]

What's the thoughts on Stages engineer Andy Lull confirming Kerrison's 6%? He confirmed 4.5-5% when testing the older rounder version of the O.Symetric rings with a Stages and an SRM, using a Wahoo KICKR to represent the actual rider output and this is what's been on their website for months.
He said he hadn't tested the more aggressive O.Symetric rings Froome used in Tour de France, but confirmed another 1-1.5% could be expected.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

1. would rather hear from someone with no CoI
2. would like to understand how less W/kg power from Froome puts time into greater W/kg power from other riders.

 

[jalep]

Re:

People quoting Tinkoff for truth are insane.

Sky are so good at hiring people that a Masseure died in Spain. Great team docs. Brailsford then used that death as an excuse to hire Leinders.

The idea that Sky spend their budget well on the people they hire is not true. They got rid of lots they hired in the beginning. Now they are hiring Palfreeman back after letting him go to get Leinders.

Not at all doubting that what Tinkoff or Tinkov, whichever it is, anyway... no doubt he can be bizarre. But I did agree with his assessment that Sky is going to kill cycling with the size of their budget stretching to cover 5-10 years in advance, something other teams struggle to do a year in advance. I don't at all believe they have won or will win TdF over and over and do it without doping. Nor do I think they are honest or transparent. They are backed by a media mogul and they can pull strings and hide and cover-up whatever needs to be covered. Having lots of money to spend doesn't mean they always spend it well but that's the advantage - they can **** up, carry on and thrive. What is left out of their promotional narrative of incredible methods and program is designer doping. No proof but plenty of reasons to believe the doping part.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Personally (and RF will have seen me say this before) I don't discount that they are being chemically helped, but that they are really pushing the boundaries of what is legal (and are probably past the boundary of what is ethical).

In the past, some or all of : Xenon, Telmisartan, Tramadol, Ventolin, OOC cortisone, Thyroid medicine perhaps, etc. together with the special Ketones. The 'legal' drugs that get you a performance increase. I believe that is where the Leinders connection comes in - hire a doping doctor who knows what is what (ie what is grey and what isnt) and knows Zorzoli as well (who would also know the grey areas). I don't believe they are abusing TUEs in competition (lets not cover the TdR one again) since that kind of information could easily be leaked / found out.

All quite possible. You can't just ignore the sketchy and clearly covered up IC cortisone however. But I would agree that some of that is likely in their approach. The notion that because there's no leak there's no cheating doesn't wash, simply not logical.

That said, the simpler explanation is that they're also or instead just using AICAR and other drugs to cut weight and microdosing EPO. None of which is detectable.

Well the TdR TUE was leaked - wouldn't be difficult for that person to leak the others. In fact if they were outraged at the TdR one wouldn't they leak any of the others that they knew (or could get to know about)?

Why is it simpler to say they are using Aicar? Its banned and its very expensive - ANY hint or evidence (wrappers, syringes, etc.) that they were using it would be high risk. Why not go cheaper, legal and simpler? And as for detectability? Telmisartan isn't detectable / tested for as its not prohibited ...

You might as well argue that it's hard to dope in cycling. Which it isn't. Why not go cheaper, legal and simpler?

Efficacy.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

So if you believe others like Nibali are taking it too, where's the advantage to Sky? You assuming UCI Sky protection so they can administer it more effectively than Astana and the others?

valid question, but has an answer, some riders losing the 10% of mass are affected diferently, much like how PEDs affect differently, but, in this case, the symptoms of the PED, the weightloss, affect differently.

see about the 2011 Tour of Cali that Horner won for Shack, when Busche pulled for his endlessly.

Horner lossed a truckload of weight, and was by far the best climber outclinging the spanish Protour grimpeurs by a way, BUT, Horner's tt fell off the cliff. He would have normally been a top5, maybe a podium tt at Cali when he was racing for GC. why the loss? well, the weightloss he had, mostly non-functional, but there was obviously some muscle and power lost for his chrono. Wiggo and Froome had managed to avoid this weakness of the tactic of weightloss. When this PED weightloss was not previously available because this drug did not exist.

Ilnur Zakarin is also case study #2. I need to assess his tt results and compare them from before he jumped on this PED.

Zakarin is lean like Froome now, lets see him before

before #1
lean at RusVelo

really lean at Rusvelo, like Froome at Barloworld. and yes, it is only using my eyes, not using the scales and weight. But we don't have this access, but if he is heavier to the eye, the metric is still a valid one (caveats for lighting/angle/lens)

 

[blackcat]

after

 

[whittashau]

He has some muscle mass on his arms though. Froome has no discernible bicep. It's weird as hell.

 

[blackcat]

third in the tour of romandie chrono would tell me his power in timetrials have not fallen off the cliff like chris horner's did

Nibali was a good timetrialer and a good climber, but he has lost a material amount, ~5%, versus Wiggins and Froome losing ~8%. Nibali not as strong in the timetrial. Wiggins and Froome just as strong as they were when they were heavier.

this may not necessarily been just PEDs, or, the weightloss and peds. IT affects everyone differently, and Wiggins and Froome managed to bank the advantages of weightloss, but maintain their timetrial abilities they had before.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

He has some muscle mass on his arms though. Froome has no discernible bicep. It's weird as hell.

it is flexed. but yes, his arms are a little larger, not much at all, they get the arms in full profile. i highlighted the heaviest possible pic of Zakarin's weightloss. And his legs, there is still a degree of bulge in his quads. Lets say, a Nibali level loss, maintains a degree of muscle mass

 

[Lyon]

Sky isn't using anything the other teams/groups/riders aren't using, just like US Postal didn't use anything their competition didn't have access to. Ketones etc is just a smokescreen. It is simply better use of resources, more resources - and luck.

Sky have the better drug cocktail, they have the better logistics for it, and they have the better people lobbying their cause where it matters. Luck and money.

Which is why it is strange to see a lot of seemingly knowledgeable cycling fans argue whether Sky is clean or not - you know they are drugged but they are also currently the best at it, so you can still support them, and feel pride doing it, without willingly suspending your disbelief.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Sky isn't using anything the other teams/groups/riders aren't using, just like US Postal didn't use anything their competition didn't have access to. Ketones etc is just a smokescreen. It is simply better use of resources, more resources - and luck.

Sky have the better drug cocktail, they have the better logistics for it, and they have the better people lobbying their cause where it matters. Luck and money.

Which is why it is strange to see a lot of seemingly knowledgeable cycling fans argue whether Sky is clean or not - you know they are drugged but they are also currently the best at it, so you can still support them, and feel pride doing it, without willingly suspending your disbelief.

they are better resourced, but better skilled too, I dont think they have the keytones that are the better PEDs or PEDs not available. dont buy that. They have better political cover, but they have the logistics, and 8 riders in vroom's equipe riding for one aim. not to put richie or G on podium, or Richie in polka dots
sry LRP not Richie

 

[Benotti69]

It would appear that Sky are monitoring Twitter very closely and blocking anyone asking the wrong( read right) type of questions about performance. They can even be blocked for for being a follower of certain tweeters.

The paranoia builds. A bad sign for a clean sky. Circling the wagons means they are hiding something and in pro cycling that means cheating/doping.

 

[Miburo]

Recently read killing joke, loved it Benotti

Sky needs to find someone to replace porte, kwiat might be that guy

 

[domination]

Re:

It would appear that Sky are monitoring Twitter very closely and blocking anyone asking the wrong( read right) type of questions about performance. They can even be blocked for for being a follower of certain tweeters.

The paranoia builds. A bad sign for a clean sky. Circling the wagons means they are hiding something and in pro cycling that means cheating/doping.

No, it means they're filtering out the idiots

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

It would appear that Sky are monitoring Twitter very closely and blocking anyone asking the wrong( read right) type of questions about performance. They can even be blocked for for being a follower of certain tweeters.

The paranoia builds. A bad sign for a clean sky. Circling the wagons means they are hiding something and in pro cycling that means cheating/doping.

No, it means they're filtering out the idiots

Idiots that didn't buy the clean cycling snakeoil perchance...

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Recently read killing joke, loved it Benotti

See, there were these two guys in a lunatic asylum and one night they decide they don't like living in an asylum any more. They decide they're going to escape!

So, like they get up onto the roof, and there, just across this narrow gap, they see the rooftops of the town, stretching away in the moonlight...

Now, the first guy, he jumps right across with no problem. But his friend, his friend daren't make the leap. Y'see, he's afraid of falling.

So then, the first guy has an idea..He says "Hey! I have my flashlight with me! I'll shine it across the gap between the buildings. You can walk along the beam and join me!"

But the second guy just shakes his head. He Says "what do you think I am? CRAZY?....



........You'd turn it off when i was half way across!"

Bit like Skyfans.