Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[doolols]

You all know that whatever data Sky published, there would be a collective "ahah, but ...", and there would be something else they should have released, or they would be accused of "fiddling the numbers". And then that "evidence" would be yet another nail in the "therefore, they're doping" coffin.

Just admit it, everyone is pissing in the wind here. There is no proof of guilt, mere circumstantial 'this performance', 'that (alleged) doping doctor', 'the other scrap of a statement somewhere'. There can be no "proof of innocence", ever.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re:

that (alleged) doping doctor

Today I learned 'alleged' means 'convicted and currently serving sentence'.
Charles Manson is an alleged murderer, apparently.

 

[doolols]

Re: Re:

Today I learned 'alleged' means 'convicted and currently serving sentence'.
Charles Manson is an alleged murderer, apparently.

Oops. How right you are. Although "convicted" applies to a court of law, rather than USADA. But he's been banned for life. My mistake.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Any update on the bullying at all?

I think it's you guys who are the bullies. Constantly accusing people of doping in what are clear libels in "The Clinic". Unbelievable small-minded nonsense. Just go out and ride your bike. It's a far more pleasant activity than posting your prejudiced stupidity here!

And I'm sure that the current crop of pro's are scouring internet forums for material to take to libel cases

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Re: Re:

Any update on the bullying at all?

I think it's you guys who are the bullies. Constantly accusing people of doping in what are clear libels in "The Clinic". Unbelievable small-minded nonsense. Just go out and ride your bike. It's a far more pleasant activity than posting your prejudiced stupidity here!

And I'm sure that the current crop of pro's are scouring internet forums for material to take to libel cases

Then they'd actually have to counter all the points made and prove that they are not doping, right?

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Today I learned 'alleged' means 'convicted and currently serving sentence'.
Charles Manson is an alleged murderer, apparently.

Oops. How right you are. Although "convicted" applies to a court of law, rather than USADA. But he's been banned for life. My mistake.

yup...so he turns the chicken into...well...the chicken...then arrives and Sky and right about then we get Froome...previously a cyclist with no visible means of support suddenly flashing lots of form about town....

those with enquiring minds...in fact...you don't even really need an enquiring mind...

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re:

Any update on the bullying at all?

Still wondering at theHitch accusing Sky of bullying yet when asked to actually back up his little throwaway comment there's absolutely nothing said.

 

[The Hitch]

I wasn't born yesterday. I know you aren't here to have a serious discussion, and you've already made it more than clear that you will always move the goalposts no matter what anyone says.

So of course i don't respond everytime you demand me to.

No doubt you'll now accuse me of trying to worm my way out of a comment I shouldn't have posted.

Well not at all. Sky are bullies. We all know this. I suspect even you know this. If it means so much to you, lets quickly go through some of the better known examples.

Just of the top of my head.

Kennaugh's private warning to Rasmussen this year
The labelling of Vayer and Tucker as pseudoscientists,
Kennaugh's attack on Kimmage which RR at the time said was unacapetable.
Wiggos attack on Landis, calling him a drunk and falsely claiming Landis was making up the accusations against Lance.
Froome attacking Vasseur as a doper.
Brailsford in that interview where the dutch freelancer asks him if Froome has done a Vo2 max test. IIRC he was also threatening to Kimmage when PK asked about EBH.

Lets not forget sky's close friend david millar and the accusations he made against gaumont in 2004. Not Sky but DM was part of BC then and was accepted back with open arms. Is now riding the Sky "cycling reformed" bandwagon to his new book, and these are all cut from the same cloth.

These are just some of the ones that actually made the news.

But vanilla compared to the way Brailsford and cronies behave behind the scenes. Some of which has been mentioned on this forum if you were paying attention, by posters who were involved in the early years of 1990's and 2000's. Or you might want to take a look at what some of the women have to say about Sutton.

Or also behind the scenes the bizzare threats Michelle was sending to random twitter users and her rather humorous practice of blocking the user so they couldn't respond.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

AFAIC, anything David Walsh says in a bullying fashion should be considered Sky bullying people also.

 

[blackcat]

here's some marginal gains

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re:

I wasn't born yesterday. I know you aren't here to have a serious discussion, and you've already made it more than clear that you will always move the goalposts no matter what anyone says.

So of course i don't respond everytime you demand me to.

No doubt you'll now accuse me of trying to worm my way out of a comment I shouldn't have posted.

Well not at all. Sky are bullies. We all know this. I suspect even you know this. If it means so much to you, lets quickly go through some of the better known examples.

Just of the top of my head.

Kennaugh's private warning to Rasmussen this year
The labelling of Vayer and Tucker as pseudoscientists,
Kennaugh's attack on Kimmage which RR at the time said was unacapetable.
Wiggos attack on Landis, calling him a drunk and falsely claiming Landis was making up the accusations against Lance.
Froome attacking Vasseur as a doper.
Brailsford in that interview where the dutch freelancer asks him if Froome has done a Vo2 max test. IIRC he was also threatening to Kimmage when PK asked about EBH.

Lets not forget sky's close friend david millar and the accusations he made against gaumont in 2004. Not Sky but DM was part of BC then and was accepted back with open arms. Is now riding the Sky "cycling reformed" bandwagon to his new book, and these are all cut from the same cloth.

These are just some of the ones that actually made the news.

But vanilla compared to the way Brailsford and cronies behave behind the scenes. Some of which has been mentioned on this forum if you were paying attention, by posters who were involved in the early years of 1990's and 2000's. Or you might want to take a look at what some of the women have to say about Sutton.

Or also behind the scenes the bizzare threats Michelle was sending to random twitter users and her rather humorous practice of blocking the user so they couldn't respond.

Links?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re:

AFAIC, anything David Walsh says in a bullying fashion should be considered Sky bullying people also.

That tweet from Walsh is an example of Sky's 'bullying'? Right....

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

AFAIC, anything David Walsh says in a bullying fashion should be considered Sky bullying people also.

That tweet from Walsh is an example of Sky's 'bullying'? Right....

Jimmy, no, that tweet from Walsh, paired with the Simpson joke, is not an example of Sky "bullying"
is a forecast of what Mr Walsh will tweet in 2016

the bullying is described in Hitch's post

 

[wendybnt]

Could be worse, could be doing what Astana head Vinokourov is doing and threaten to sue journalists:

http://archyworld.com/2015/09/cycling-international-bribery-vinokourov-threatens-lawsuit-in-belgium/

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re: Re:

AFAIC, anything David Walsh says in a bullying fashion should be considered Sky bullying people also.

That tweet from Walsh is an example of Sky's 'bullying'? Right....

Jimmy, no, that tweet from Walsh, paired with the Simpson joke, is not an example of Sky "bullying"
is a forecast of what Mr Walsh will tweet in 2016

the bullying is described in Hitch's post

Oh I see. So no ACTUAL bullying, you know like Lance did. Physical, verbal intimidation, the enforcing of omertà, ending careers, using the courts to silence people.

You know, real bullying.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

I wasn't born yesterday. I know you aren't here to have a serious discussion, and you've already made it more than clear that you will always move the goalposts no matter what anyone says.

So of course i don't respond everytime you demand me to.

No doubt you'll now accuse me of trying to worm my way out of a comment I shouldn't have posted.

Well not at all. Sky are bullies. We all know this. I suspect even you know this. If it means so much to you, lets quickly go through some of the better known examples.

Just of the top of my head.

Kennaugh's private warning to Rasmussen this year
The labelling of Vayer and Tucker as pseudoscientists,
Kennaugh's attack on Kimmage which RR at the time said was unacapetable.
Wiggos attack on Landis, calling him a drunk and falsely claiming Landis was making up the accusations against Lance.
Froome attacking Vasseur as a doper.
Brailsford in that interview where the dutch freelancer asks him if Froome has done a Vo2 max test. IIRC he was also threatening to Kimmage when PK asked about EBH.

Lets not forget sky's close friend david millar and the accusations he made against gaumont in 2004. Not Sky but DM was part of BC then and was accepted back with open arms. Is now riding the Sky "cycling reformed" bandwagon to his new book, and these are all cut from the same cloth.

These are just some of the ones that actually made the news.

But vanilla compared to the way Brailsford and cronies behave behind the scenes. Some of which has been mentioned on this forum if you were paying attention, by posters who were involved in the early years of 1990's and 2000's. Or you might want to take a look at what some of the women have to say about Sutton.

Or also behind the scenes the bizzare threats Michelle was sending to random twitter users and her rather humorous practice of blocking the user so they couldn't respond.

I would add
Little Richie threatening a fan who yelled "doper" or something
Danny Pate on twitter, he's especially very good at kicking people when they're down - i.e. Contador, Di Luca, Danielson, Iglinskiy and "all those fake and fradulent athletes"
And Michelle on twitter, bullying riders and fans alike

 

[JimmyFingers]

So reacting to roadside abuse is bullying? Wasn't Porte punched? The Sky teamcar rocked on the Alpe?

And I'm confused, isn't the rest what is done here? There seems to be an extraordinary moral compass being applied here: fine for you to denigrate, mock, de-humanise riders and teams in the clinic and on Twitter, yet if the riders do they are bullies?

As for calling Vayer and Tucker pseudo-scientists, don't people refer to Brailsford as Brailsfraud? How is one bad and the other ok? And having conversed with Vayer on Twitter, who reacts with extreme aggression when questioned, I find it hard to fathom how you can cast him as a victim of Sky bullying. In fact by the examples shown, calling people out on Twitter, then he is the bully, right? Or wrong.

You can't have it both ways, is something is wrong its wrong, its not ok for someone to act a certain way but wrong for someone else. It's called hypocrisy, or double standards. Considering how people react to posters in here if they disagree with them, calling them 'bots', fanboys, trolls, to try to dress a Sky rider calling out convicted dopers on Twitter as bullying is an incredibly blinkered moral view. I also wonder who here is active on Twitter and what you have used the platform to say to the Sky riders, I doubt its pretty.

 

[The Carrot]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/aug/01/nicole-cooke-book-the-breakaway-cycling

' Having fought to be included in the team for the 2000 world junior track championships, she was told just before the start that a tyre had deflated. Her bike was hurried away by a member of the support staff, disrupting her preparation. Later her father looked for a puncture and found none.'

Setting people up to fail=bullying.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/aug/01/nicole-cooke-book-the-breakaway-cycling

' Having fought to be included in the team for the 2000 world junior track championships, she was told just before the start that a tyre had deflated. Her bike was hurried away by a member of the support staff, disrupting her preparation. Later her father looked for a puncture and found none.'

Setting people up to fail=bullying.

You missed the line before: "Mutual distrust led to levels of suspicion verging on paranoia."

From the same article:

"Sir Dave Brailsford, Keen’s successor, is given credit for eventually adopting some of the plans she and her father had been advocating."

Tenuous at best to lay that at Sky's door. Desperate even.

 

[del1962]

So the new definition of bullying is reacting to insinuations and accusations made against you

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re:

So the new definition of bullying is reacting to insinuations and accusations made against you

But not making insinuation and accusations of course. That's fine.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

So the new definition of bullying is reacting to insinuations and accusations made against you

No Sky made the pronouncements and when questioned and called on them Sky reacted with accusations of bullying. Again you know this. But instead of Sky answering the questions and showing transparency to disprove the accusations they close ranks and act like victims.

Example.

Walsh made a huge deal of Armstrong working with Ferrari as evidence of doping.

When Walsh found out about Sky hiring Leinders the opposite deal was made that this proved Sky are clean!

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

So the new definition of bullying is reacting to insinuations and accusations made against you

No Sky made the pronouncements and when questioned and called on them Sky reacted with accusations of bullying. Again you know this. But instead of Sky answering the questions and showing transparency to disprove the accusations they close ranks and act like victims.

Example.

Walsh made a huge deal of Armstrong working with Ferrari as evidence of doping.

When Walsh found out about Sky hiring Leinders the opposite deal was made that this proved Sky are clean!

Your ignoring some of the stuff that was in the list of Sky's supposed bullying

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

So the new definition of bullying is reacting to insinuations and accusations made against you

No Sky made the pronouncements and when questioned and called on them Sky reacted with accusations of bullying. Again you know this. But instead of Sky answering the questions and showing transparency to disprove the accusations they close ranks and act like victims.

Example.

Walsh made a huge deal of Armstrong working with Ferrari as evidence of doping.

When Walsh found out about Sky hiring Leinders the opposite deal was made that this proved Sky are clean!

Your ignoring some of the stuff that was in the list of Sky's supposed bullying

I consider what sky has done to be bullying, all of it. I gave one example(Dear Wiggo posted a funny one), in the slim hope that the discussion could move on but obfuscation seems to be fans 'job' for the day........

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re: Re:

Links?

Jimmy the links are all in the thread. You of course know this and this is what i consider to be trolling.

No its not, it's asking for him to back his statement with links to jusitfy them. Some of the stories I am unfamiliar with. None of them are real bullying and I'll thank you to keep your accusations of trolling to yourself.

These example are easily found. You know this.

Stop putting words into my mouth and telling me what I know. Surely that is trolling. As I said I am not familiar with all of them, to try to evaluate whether they in any way qualify as bullying I wanted to know more, so I asked for links to back up the statement. I suspect few if any would be considered real bullying.

Calling a spade a spade.

You are not new to the clinic. This stuff has been posted more than once in here. You continue to post doubting it. That IMO is trolling.

I've always had time for you but you are out of line here. Whether I am new to the clinic or not I simply do not know everything that has been posted here. Saying that to me is trolling IMO. I have no idea what Kennaugh said about Rasmussen for example. I repeat, no idea, so stop trying to make what I am saying into something I'm not in an effort to silence me. I am very tired of my contributions to the forum being misrepresented. Because I don't hold with your narrative neither makes me a troll or an enemy, just someone that holds a different opinion to you. If someone is going to accuse Sky of bullying I expect them to back it up with examples. Asking for links to those examples isn't trolling in the slightest, it's asking for links to examples, plain as day.