Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Apr 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
thehog said:
kwikki said:
@Benotti

Well, you have your view of the pro cycling world, and you'll fit what people say into that view.

Not saying you are wrong, I'm just correcting thehog's misquotation of Cooke.
Again, Badzhila was never mentioned. It was eluded to.. rather than said :cool:

Agreed it was 5kg then 9kgs. Apparently. I've seen Froome photos from 2008, not the Sun Tour, so very much doubt he was 9kg over weight.

Still remains Cooke didn't think he would ever win a GT. Like most people.
No one thought he would win a GT, not even Froome.
Interestingly, Cooke said something that pertains to this. He said (and I'd have to go back and check for exact words) that Froome grew massively in confidence, and also developed the confidence to stand his ground in the peloton rather than being constantly pushed out into the wind as he was at Barloword, early on.

I've got the message that you totally discount anything that doesn't fit into your view of pro cycling, but I disagree with that approach. There are 'clinic' issues, and we both share a view that they are ubiquitous, but riders still have to develop and progress as athletes even within that context. I find Cooke's comments interesting in that respect.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
http://d7ab823tjbf2qywyt3grgq63.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/readers/american%20psycho/2013.05.08.20.12.53/1/Jan%20Ullrich%20-%20Tour%20of%20Murcia.jpg

This is what a champion looks like when he's carrying an extra 9kg...

John Swanson
:D

That photo makes me feel better about myself
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Re: Re:

kwikki said:
ScienceIsCool said:
http://d7ab823tjbf2qywyt3grgq63.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/readers/american%20psycho/2013.05.08.20.12.53/1/Jan%20Ullrich%20-%20Tour%20of%20Murcia.jpg

This is what a champion looks like when he's carrying an extra 9kg...

John Swanson
:D

That photo makes me feel better about myself
Seriously though. Fat density is 0.9 g/ml so 9 kg is like adding an extra 10 liters of body volume!! I have yet to see a photo where Froome as a pro was carrying an extra 6 to 10 liters. uh uh. no way.

John Swanson
 
Apr 3, 2016
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You may not have seen a photo, but Cooke saw Froome in the flesh day after day.

9kg does sound a lot, I agree.
 
Sep 10, 2013
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You can tell there has been a concerted effort to change the conversation from Sky being 'dominant' to racing 'smarter'. It's a clear PR move to take the heat off.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Re:

HappyCycling said:
You can tell there has been a concerted effort to change the conversation from Sky being 'dominant' to racing 'smarter'. It's a clear PR move to take the heat off.
That is one possible interpretation. Another is that Sky are racing smarter. After all, last year they nearly lost the race on Alpe d'Huez.
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

kwikki said:
Benotti69 said:
thehog said:
kwikki said:
@Benotti

Well, you have your view of the pro cycling world, and you'll fit what people say into that view.

Not saying you are wrong, I'm just correcting thehog's misquotation of Cooke.
Again, Badzhila was never mentioned. It was eluded to.. rather than said :cool:

Agreed it was 5kg then 9kgs. Apparently. I've seen Froome photos from 2008, not the Sun Tour, so very much doubt he was 9kg over weight.

Still remains Cooke didn't think he would ever win a GT. Like most people.
No one thought he would win a GT, not even Froome.
Interestingly, Cooke said something that pertains to this. He said (and I'd have to go back and check for exact words) that Froome grew massively in confidence, and also developed the confidence to stand his ground in the peloton rather than being constantly pushed out into the wind as he was at Barloword, early on.

<snipped for playing man>
I take what Cooke says with the understanding he is firmly part of the circus and will not jeopardise that. He is now a businessman.

When i am riding in the TdF and the ASO/UCI/Richest team in the sport are backing me, it is easy to have a pair. Simoni showed balls. Bassons showed balls. Kimmage showed balls. Froome is not showing balls.

9kg is a lot for a professional athlete.

Before anyone comes in slagging Barlowold as some 3rd world team. They weren't.
 
Sep 10, 2013
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Re: Re:

kwikki said:
HappyCycling said:
You can tell there has been a concerted effort to change the conversation from Sky being 'dominant' to racing 'smarter'. It's a clear PR move to take the heat off.
That is one possible interpretation. Another is that Sky are racing smarter. After all, last year they nearly lost the race on Alpe d'Huez.
They are racing smarter, that much IS clear. But that isn't to say the act of speaking and racing smarter isn't a calculated move from Sky. Especially after the urine, booing and other such delights from last year. Also, Sky were never in danger of losing the Tour on the Alpe last year, Quintana never even got close to the virtual yellow.
 
So...

1) Froome
It was expected
BUT
this is what interests me:

12) Henao
15) G
17) Nieve

28) Poels

Three Deluxe domestiques finishing top 20 & the mighty mountain pacer within the top 30. Landa ended up 35..... We are looking at the people who set Froome up in the mountains all the time, expent the most energy & sacrificed the most for their leader.........yet they get to be well positioned in the final GC....... how is that possible?

not normal
 
May 26, 2009
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Re:

hfer07 said:
So...

1) Froome
It was expected
BUT
this is what interests me:

12) Henao
15) G
17) Nieve

28) Poels

Three Deluxe domestiques finishing top 20 & the mighty mountain pacer within the top 30. Landa ended up 35..... We are looking at the people who set Froome up in the mountains all the time, expend the most energy & sacrificed the most for his leader.........yet they get to be well positioned in the final GC....... how is that possible?

not normal
How much time to "G" lose when he handed over his bike, might have finished ahead of Aru if he didn't have to hand his bike over.
 
Re: Re:

BYOP88 said:
hfer07 said:
So...

1) Froome
It was expected
BUT
this is what interests me:

12) Henao
15) G
17) Nieve

28) Poels

Three Deluxe domestiques finishing top 20 & the mighty mountain pacer within the top 30. Landa ended up 35..... We are looking at the people who set Froome up in the mountains all the time, expend the most energy & sacrificed the most for his leader.........yet they get to be well positioned in the final GC....... how is that possible?

not normal
How much time to "G" lose when he handed over his bike, might have finished ahead of Aru if he didn't have to hand his bike over.
exactly. So by that rational we're inclined to believe "G" as a domestique already surpassed Aru, don't we? :eek:
 
Re: Re:

thehog said:
kwikki said:
@Benotti

Well, you have your view of the pro cycling world, and you'll fit what people say into that view.

Not saying you are wrong, I'm just correcting thehog's misquotation of Cooke.
Again, Badzhila was never mentioned. It was eluded to.. rather than said :cool:

Agreed it was 5kg then 9kgs. Apparently. I've seen Froome photos from 2008, not the Sun Tour, so very much doubt he was 9kg over weight.

Still remains Cooke didn't think he would ever win a GT. Like most people.
Here are a couple of pics of Froome from the 2008 Sun Tour

Finish line pic on Mt Buller


And one from earlier in the race


He certainly was carrying more weight but 9 kg's would be a stretch
 
Re:

hfer07 said:
So...

1) Froome
It was expected
BUT
this is what interests me:

12) Henao
15) G
17) Nieve

28) Poels

Three Deluxe domestiques finishing top 20 & the mighty mountain pacer within the top 30. Landa ended up 35..... We are looking at the people who set Froome up in the mountains all the time, expent the most energy & sacrificed the most for their leader.........yet they get to be well positioned in the final GC....... how is that possible?

not normal
I don't remember Henao and Thomas (with the exception of stage 20) doing much riding on the front in mountain stages at all.
 
I agree with roundabout, Henao was practically a protected rider on the team. They let him attack off the front in the Pyrenees to soften the race up instead of riding tempo and let him go into the break on the last mountain stage. Nieve and Poels were the pace setters. Also, they mainly finished amongst the stage hunters like Pantano, Majka, and Zakarin (i.e people intentionally dropping time at places). So, I am not sure how that makes them well- positioned in the final GC.
 
Oct 4, 2011
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Re: Re:

roundabout said:
hfer07 said:
So...

1) Froome
It was expected
BUT
this is what interests me:

12) Henao
15) G
17) Nieve

28) Poels

Three Deluxe domestiques finishing top 20 & the mighty mountain pacer within the top 30. Landa ended up 35..... We are looking at the people who set Froome up in the mountains all the time, expent the most energy & sacrificed the most for their leader.........yet they get to be well positioned in the final GC....... how is that possible?

not normal
I don't remember Henao and Thomas (with the exception of stage 20) doing much riding on the front in mountain stages at all.
But sure they couldnt be doping- Chris would have them locked up
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-shocked-on-doping-in-team/

I gotta say this year on the joux plane they were ridiculous- shouldn't someone have got on the radio and told at least some of them to pretend to get dropped-
 
Re: Re:

roundabout said:
hfer07 said:
So...

1) Froome
It was expected
BUT
this is what interests me:

12) Henao
15) G
17) Nieve

28) Poels

Three Deluxe domestiques finishing top 20 & the mighty mountain pacer within the top 30. Landa ended up 35..... We are looking at the people who set Froome up in the mountains all the time, expent the most energy & sacrificed the most for their leader.........yet they get to be well positioned in the final GC....... how is that possible?

not normal
I don't remember Henao and Thomas (with the exception of stage 20) doing much riding on the front in mountain stages at all.
 
May 26, 2009
4,114
0
0
Re: Re:

noddy69 said:
roundabout said:
hfer07 said:
So...

1) Froome
It was expected
BUT
this is what interests me:

12) Henao
15) G
17) Nieve

28) Poels

Three Deluxe domestiques finishing top 20 & the mighty mountain pacer within the top 30. Landa ended up 35..... We are looking at the people who set Froome up in the mountains all the time, expent the most energy & sacrificed the most for their leader.........yet they get to be well positioned in the final GC....... how is that possible?

not normal
I don't remember Henao and Thomas (with the exception of stage 20) doing much riding on the front in mountain stages at all.
But sure they couldnt be doping- Chris would have them locked up
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-shocked-on-doping-in-team/

I gotta say this year on the joux plane they were ridiculous- shouldn't someone have got on the radio and told at least some of them to pretend to get dropped-

Hmm I think Froome is full of *** on this.

What’s your racing been like so far this season?
CF: It started well. I got a second place overall in the Giro del Capo behind my team-mate Christian Pfannberger.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/the-big-interview-chris-froome-95581#L0FEhbXiTkPQuq0A.99

Pfannberger had served a 2 year ban prior to that interview and was banned a 2nd time within a year of that interview.
 
Re: Re:

noddy69 said:
roundabout said:
hfer07 said:
So...

1) Froome
It was expected
BUT
this is what interests me:

12) Henao
15) G
17) Nieve

28) Poels

Three Deluxe domestiques finishing top 20 & the mighty mountain pacer within the top 30. Landa ended up 35..... We are looking at the people who set Froome up in the mountains all the time, expent the most energy & sacrificed the most for their leader.........yet they get to be well positioned in the final GC....... how is that possible?

not normal
I don't remember Henao and Thomas (with the exception of stage 20) doing much riding on the front in mountain stages at all.
But sure they couldnt be doping- Chris would have them locked up
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-shocked-on-doping-in-team/

I gotta say this year on the joux plane they were ridiculous- shouldn't someone have got on the radio and told at least some of them to pretend to get dropped-

What was remotely ridiculous about it ffs???!

It was the key stage to survive and stay with Froome and not one, not one contender attacked, yet Froome survived with the likes of Nieve, Thomas and Poels, oh wow that was off the scale, even though they conceded time to the break all day and had to fend off ZERO attacks.
 
Re: Re:

BYOP88 said:
noddy69 said:
roundabout said:
hfer07 said:
So...

1) Froome
It was expected
BUT
this is what interests me:

12) Henao
15) G
17) Nieve

28) Poels

Three Deluxe domestiques finishing top 20 & the mighty mountain pacer within the top 30. Landa ended up 35..... We are looking at the people who set Froome up in the mountains all the time, expent the most energy & sacrificed the most for their leader.........yet they get to be well positioned in the final GC....... how is that possible?

not normal
I don't remember Henao and Thomas (with the exception of stage 20) doing much riding on the front in mountain stages at all.
But sure they couldnt be doping- Chris would have them locked up
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-shocked-on-doping-in-team/

I gotta say this year on the joux plane they were ridiculous- shouldn't someone have got on the radio and told at least some of them to pretend to get dropped-

Hmm I think Froome is full of **** on this.

What’s your racing been like so far this season?
CF: It started well. I got a second place overall in the Giro del Capo behind my team-mate Christian Pfannberger.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/the-big-interview-chris-froome-95581#L0FEhbXiTkPQuq0A.99

Pfannberger had served a 2 year ban prior to that interview and was banned a 2nd time within a year of that interview.
Even more funny was this from that interview in bold below. Dawg to round up the evil (euro) dopers and get them locked in jail! :lol:

When asked about the punishments cyclists should face, and in particular those faced by Dueñas, Froome paused before taking a line that many cycling fans would openly applaud. "I'm sure he's in enough trouble as it is and that he'll regret it for the rest of his life. There's already the possibility of a two-year suspension, a jail sentence and huge fine to pay and I hope he accepts that. I'm sure that he'll regret it for the rest of his life. If that's the only way it's going to stop guys doping then we should throw them in jail."
 
Just read the comments (about Froome's win) in The Guardian: I pay homage to the Sky genius.

It all just works so brilliantly. There's not even that mainstream residual weary skepticism/suspicion, which was absolutely manifest last year.

Everyone's just drinking up the kool aid. Quite a feat from where they were last year.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Re:

The Hegelian said:
Just read the comments (about Froome's win) in The Guardian: I pay homage to the Sky genius.

It all just works so brilliantly. There's not even that mainstream residual weary skepticism/suspicion, which was absolutely manifest last year.

Everyone's just drinking up the kool aid. Quite a feat from where they were last year.
Mainstream scepticism where? In the UK? ( you are quoting a UK paper) or everywhere?

If it is everywhere, how is a UK paper indicative of that?

If it is UK, then I would say that there has never been a weary scepticism about Sky, but there has always been an unspoken scepticism about cycling.

I read the Guardian article, and found it irritating, but it isn't surprising or unusual for a national paper to eulogise a national athlete and team based in that nation when they have just won an international event.

I think it is also understandable and predictable that the noise about doping that has surrounded the Tour since Sky's first win has died down a little. Not because of anything Sky have done to allay suspicions, but because we are now 4 years on from USADA's Reasoned Decision. Sky's first Tour win came right in the middle of the Armstrong debacle, the effect of which was to make doping the central issue in mainstream consciousness when this king about cycling. The RD came 2 days after the Tour finished. Oprah came in the following January, thus keeping doping firmly in the minds of cycling fans and the general public.

Regardless of where one stands on Sky and clinic issues, it is undeniable that the Armstrong fallout added to the cynicism (after all, many posters here frequently revert back to making parallels with Armstrong) and anybody winning the Tour from 2012 onwards would be fighting an uphill battle.

Four years on, things are bound to calm down.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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The irony and hypocrisy is huge though considering British dominance in cycling happens right in the Russia bashing period.
 
Apr 3, 2016
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If you have documented evidence of British state sponsored doping programmes, coercion and threats of violence made towards British anti-doping labs by British security services, British state security services breaking into doping labs and switching samples, a British Government plan to dope athletes and hide positives, British government sponsored development of new doping techniques, then by all means publish it.

If you haven't got any documented evidence then what you say just looks like idle speculation with no factual basis.
 
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