Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[elduggo]

Re: Re:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-team-sky-are-doping-where-are-the-whistleblowers-vdqzmvxzw?shareToken=1aeadf4a44648976e85dec2c79ad1a8d

Of course, do I need to point out that this article is published by the same news organisation that sponsors Team Sky?

Not many COIs there then

Actually, in amongst the puff and nonsense, the author does say something with which I agree:

"Any journalist who exposed Team Sky — I mean really exposed, rather than offering innuendo — would be the toast of the industry. It would dominate coverage across the globe."

He's absolutely right about that.

He then ruins it be saying:

"That is why (like every journalist involved in sport), I have sought to discover precisely such evidence"

I don't doubt that some journalists have tried, after all, not all journalists are British and work for the Times, but he cites Walsh as an example. Bit of an own goal, that one.

It's a good read and I agree with a lot of what he said regarding investigative journalists, whistleblowers and that it is easy to cast aspersions but can be hard to prove definitively you're not doping as there will always be theories saying otherwise (but Sky could have done more). Not surprising he showed support for Walsh a fellow Times writer, how much you want to believe in this article at the end of the day, comes down to how much freedom you believe journalists have nowadays

But what do I know is, it's great bait for the many on here who believe Sky are doping :lol:

ah yeah, my own personal favourite part is where he spoke to Poels in Tenerife. But failed to ask the only question thats in any way relevant. Why Tenerife? A place that, even by Froome's admission, drug testing doesn't happen.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-team-sky-are-doping-where-are-the-whistleblowers-vdqzmvxzw?shareToken=1aeadf4a44648976e85dec2c79ad1a8d

Of course, do I need to point out that this article is published by the same news organisation that sponsors Team Sky?

Not many COIs there then

Actually, in amongst the puff and nonsense, the author does say something with which I agree:

"Any journalist who exposed Team Sky — I mean really exposed, rather than offering innuendo — would be the toast of the industry. It would dominate coverage across the globe."

He's absolutely right about that.

He then ruins it be saying:

"That is why (like every journalist involved in sport), I have sought to discover precisely such evidence"

I don't doubt that some journalists have tried, after all, not all journalists are British and work for the Times, but he cites Walsh as an example. Bit of an own goal, that one.

It's a good read and I agree with a lot of what he said regarding investigative journalists, whistleblowers and that it is easy to cast aspersions but can be hard to prove definitively you're not doping as there will always be theories saying otherwise (but Sky could have done more). Not surprising he showed support for Walsh a fellow Times writer, how much you want to believe in this article at the end of the day, comes down to how much freedom you believe journalists have nowadays

But what do I know is, it's great bait for the many on here who believe Sky are doping :lol:

ah yeah, my own personal favourite part is where he spoke to Poels in Tenerife. But failed to ask the only question thats in any way relevant. Why Tenerife? A place that, even by Froome's admission, drug testing doesn't happen.

Ahh hah :idea:

I wonder if that might possibly be why ASTANA, KATUSHA, MOVISTAR, LOTTO, and BELKIN also train there

(Actually, IIRC, this was Froome's complaint. That so many teams train there so it ought to have testing)

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-team-sky-are-doping-where-are-the-whistleblowers-vdqzmvxzw?shareToken=1aeadf4a44648976e85dec2c79ad1a8d

Of course, do I need to point out that this article is published by the same news organisation that sponsors Team Sky?

Not many COIs there then

Actually, in amongst the puff and nonsense, the author does say something with which I agree:

"Any journalist who exposed Team Sky — I mean really exposed, rather than offering innuendo — would be the toast of the industry. It would dominate coverage across the globe."

He's absolutely right about that.

He then ruins it be saying:

"That is why (like every journalist involved in sport), I have sought to discover precisely such evidence"

I don't doubt that some journalists have tried, after all, not all journalists are British and work for the Times, but he cites Walsh as an example. Bit of an own goal, that one.

It's a good read and I agree with a lot of what he said regarding investigative journalists, whistleblowers and that it is easy to cast aspersions but can be hard to prove definitively you're not doping as there will always be theories saying otherwise (but Sky could have done more). Not surprising he showed support for Walsh a fellow Times writer, how much you want to believe in this article at the end of the day, comes down to how much freedom you believe journalists have nowadays

But what do I know is, it's great bait for the many on here who believe Sky are doping :lol:

ah yeah, my own personal favourite part is where he spoke to Poels in Tenerife. But failed to ask the only question thats in any way relevant. Why Tenerife? A place that, even by Froome's admission, drug testing doesn't happen.

Have you been there? You would not need explanation if you had. Those to whom is explained don't want to hear. I expect if he was there he didn't need to ask. I am talking about suitability for every other reason than doping. The lack of testing is an inconvenience, as Froome has pointed out, as it gives material to those who believe it as the main reason fr going there. I am sure you are aware of the use of this place by so many of the other teams. It's not unique to Sky.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

It took a positive doping test, a served ban and a return to cycling that saw him completely frozen out by every single pro team and pro rider and a couple of years addicted to booze and pills for Landis to do his thing against Armstrong and USPS, eleven years after their first Tour win in 1999.

So obviously the first dude who sees something fishy going on at Sky is going to start shouting about it from the rooftops and all will be dandy. Whistle-blowing is so easy.


I'm actually more and more convinced each passing day that Sky is the most elaborate trolling project of all time, designed to test how wilfully the average cycling fan will swallow a carbon copy of all USPS BS so soon after they came crashing down. The results are pretty god damn sad.

It was awesome stuff. On the day after the IOC banned Stepanova who risked her life and is living in exile from competing in the Olympics this article comes out with a line of reasoning "Why would I dope, after what my body has been through? Arguably a death sentence, why?"

These guys need to pay Lance & Sally Jenkins royalties.

Both posts bang on the dough.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

What a load of carp.
These guys will label anything as innuendo.
Where are the whistleblowers against Indurain? Or against Contador? Or Fignon?
These 'journos' still don't see that Lance was a huge exception to the rules of omerta. Or they may see it, but won't admit it as they are an integral part of said omerta.

Contador and Fignon are both convicted dopers, no whistleblowers needed.

So contador is clean now, because if he were doping, where are he whistleblowers?Tinkoff are clean. Katussha and astana are clean. Soccer and tennis are clean.
No whistleblowers.

Let's stop insulting each others brains shall we.

 

[elduggo]

Re: Re:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-team-sky-are-doping-where-are-the-whistleblowers-vdqzmvxzw?shareToken=1aeadf4a44648976e85dec2c79ad1a8d

Of course, do I need to point out that this article is published by the same news organisation that sponsors Team Sky?

Not many COIs there then

Actually, in amongst the puff and nonsense, the author does say something with which I agree:

"Any journalist who exposed Team Sky — I mean really exposed, rather than offering innuendo — would be the toast of the industry. It would dominate coverage across the globe."

He's absolutely right about that.

He then ruins it be saying:

"That is why (like every journalist involved in sport), I have sought to discover precisely such evidence"

I don't doubt that some journalists have tried, after all, not all journalists are British and work for the Times, but he cites Walsh as an example. Bit of an own goal, that one.

It's a good read and I agree with a lot of what he said regarding investigative journalists, whistleblowers and that it is easy to cast aspersions but can be hard to prove definitively you're not doping as there will always be theories saying otherwise (but Sky could have done more). Not surprising he showed support for Walsh a fellow Times writer, how much you want to believe in this article at the end of the day, comes down to how much freedom you believe journalists have nowadays

But what do I know is, it's great bait for the many on here who believe Sky are doping :lol:

ah yeah, my own personal favourite part is where he spoke to Poels in Tenerife. But failed to ask the only question thats in any way relevant. Why Tenerife? A place that, even by Froome's admission, drug testing doesn't happen.

Have you been there? You would not need explanation if you had. Those to whom is explained don't want to hear. I expect if he was there he didn't need to ask. I am talking about suitability for every other reason than doping. The lack of testing is an inconvenience, as Froome has pointed out, as it gives material to those who believe it as the main reason fr going there. I am sure you are aware of the use of this place by so many of the other teams. It's not unique to Sky.

oh yes, I go to the Canaries for warm-weather training most winters. In the depths of the northern European winter.

Syed's quote

"I spent time interviewing Poels during an altitude camp in Tenerife in the spring."

"In the spring", is the part that raises alarm bells.

And the fact that that 'place' is also used by 'so many of the other teams', those other teams being among the more dubious in the ProTour.

It was a nice troll by Froome that time. I LOL'd at it.

 

[sniper]

Excelent point about tenerife training in spring making little sense, unless u go there to dope and avoid testing. Then it makes perfect sense.

 

[gazr99]

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

 

[wrinklyvet]

"In the spring", is the part that raises alarm bells.

It seems they went in mid April - yes, the spring.

Even in mid April in most of continental Europe the conditions are not so benign as in the Canaries. You can go there in the depths of the northern winter if you like, but most training camps occur in the early spring and I am sure there are sound reasons for that.

 

[sniper]

Re:

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

All true.
Indeed, it's not a revelation.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Excelent point about tenerife training in spring making little sense, unless u go there to dope and avoid testing. Then it makes perfect sense.

Why would it make little sense?

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

What a load of carp.
These guys will label anything as innuendo.
Where are the whistleblowers against Indurain? Or against Contador? Or Fignon?
These 'journos' still don't see that Lance was a huge exception to the rules of omerta. Or they may see it, but won't admit it as they are an integral part of said omerta.

Contador and Fignon are both convicted dopers, no whistleblowers needed.

So contador is clean now, because if he were doping, where are he whistleblowers?Tinkoff are clean. Katussha and astana are clean. Soccer and tennis are clean.
No whistleblowers.

Let's stop insulting each others brains shall we.

Start using yours, maybe....

What would be the point of whistleblowers Astana, Tinkov, KATUSHA when they all have riders who have been tested positive?

That doesn't mean they are now clean. The point about lack of whistleblowers for Sky is that it is being used as an argument for NEVER HAVING DOPED.

Got it yet?

 

[gazr99]

Re: Re:

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

All true.
Indeed, it's not a revelation.

So how does it raise alarm bells and make little sense?

 

[elduggo]

Re:

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

whats shocking is the lack of drug testing there.

as pointed out by C.Froome

why go all the way to Tenerife in April when there are other places where the same training goals can be achieve (eg: Calpe)?

Tinkoff have done a 2-week training camp in Gran Canaria just before christmas the last few years. It makes sense. A hotel chain there is a part-sponsor of the team (Anfi). It also makes sense that some riders will return there themselves in January for additional training.

What doesn't make sense is that Tinkov, despite their obvious connections to Gran Canaria, would then opt to travel to Tenerife in the spring, unless there was some other reason they would want to go there.

Possibly the same reasons that attract both Sky and Astana?

 

[sniper]

Re:

"In the spring", is the part that raises alarm bells.

It seems they went in mid April - yes, the spring.

Even in mid April in most of continental Europe the conditions are not so benign as in the Canaries. You can go there in the depths of the northern winter if you like, but most training camps occur in the early spring and I am sure there are sound reasons for that.

quadruple facepalm for this epic straw man. Does anybody deny that there are sound reasons for that?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

All true.
Indeed, it's not a revelation.

So how does it raise alarm bells and make little sense?

Read. I said it makes perfect sense.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

whats shocking is the lack of drug testing there.

as pointed out by C.Froome

why go all the way to Tenerife in April when there are other places where the same training goals can be achieve (eg: Calpe)?

Tinkoff have done a 2-week training camp in Gran Canaria just before christmas the last few years. It makes sense. A hotel chain there is a part-sponsor of the team (Anfi). It also makes sense that some riders will return there themselves in January for additional training.

What doesn't make sense is that Tinkov, despite their obvious connections to Gran Canaria, would then opt to travel to Tenerife in the spring, unless there was some other reason they would want to go there.

Possibly the same reasons that attract both Sky and Astana?

It surely depends on the purpose of the training. Where in Calpe, at sea level, is the hotel in which to stay at altitude, with the adjacent mountain on which to train?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

whats shocking is the lack of drug testing there.

as pointed out by C.Froome

why go all the way to Tenerife in April when there are other places where the same training goals can be achieve (eg: Calpe)?

Tinkoff have done a 2-week training camp in Gran Canaria just before christmas the last few years. It makes sense. A hotel chain there is a part-sponsor of the team (Anfi). It also makes sense that some riders will return there themselves in January for additional training.

What doesn't make sense is that Tinkov, despite their obvious connections to Gran Canaria, would then opt to travel to Tenerife in the spring, unless there was some other reason they would want to go there.

Possibly the same reasons that attract both Sky and Astana?

The reasons for going to Tenerife have been discussed over and over, there is even a thread somewhere about it. It's pretty much a perfect training base. Comparing it to Gran Canaria is a bit silly.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

whats shocking is the lack of drug testing there.

as pointed out by C.Froome

why go all the way to Tenerife in April when there are other places where the same training goals can be achieve (eg: Calpe)?

Tinkoff have done a 2-week training camp in Gran Canaria just before christmas the last few years. It makes sense. A hotel chain there is a part-sponsor of the team (Anfi). It also makes sense that some riders will return there themselves in January for additional training.

What doesn't make sense is that Tinkov, despite their obvious connections to Gran Canaria, would then opt to travel to Tenerife in the spring, unless there was some other reason they would want to go there.

Possibly the same reasons that attract both Sky and Astana?

The reasons for going to Tenerife have been discussed over and over, there is even a thread somewhere about it. It's pretty much a perfect training base. Comparing it to Gran Canaria is a bit silly.

You are right. This has kicked off only because it was alleged that yet again a journalist has not asked the allegedly right question. We should go back to something more relevant.

 

[elduggo]

Re: Re:

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

whats shocking is the lack of drug testing there.

as pointed out by C.Froome

why go all the way to Tenerife in April when there are other places where the same training goals can be achieve (eg: Calpe)?

Tinkoff have done a 2-week training camp in Gran Canaria just before christmas the last few years. It makes sense. A hotel chain there is a part-sponsor of the team (Anfi). It also makes sense that some riders will return there themselves in January for additional training.

What doesn't make sense is that Tinkov, despite their obvious connections to Gran Canaria, would then opt to travel to Tenerife in the spring, unless there was some other reason they would want to go there.

Possibly the same reasons that attract both Sky and Astana?

The reasons for going to Tenerife have been discussed over and over, there is even a thread somewhere about it. It's pretty much a perfect training base. Comparing it to Gran Canaria is a bit silly.

yes, it is, you are correct, and we're getting side-tracked from the original point I was trying to make.

which was, why did Syed not ask the question?

 

[gazr99]

Re: Re:

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

whats shocking is the lack of drug testing there.

as pointed out by C.Froome

why go all the way to Tenerife in April when there are other places where the same training goals can be achieve (eg: Calpe)?

Tinkoff have done a 2-week training camp in Gran Canaria just before christmas the last few years. It makes sense. A hotel chain there is a part-sponsor of the team (Anfi). It also makes sense that some riders will return there themselves in January for additional training.

What doesn't make sense is that Tinkov, despite their obvious connections to Gran Canaria, would then opt to travel to Tenerife in the spring, unless there was some other reason they would want to go there.

Possibly the same reasons that attract both Sky and Astana?

Don't argue about the drug testing. But people shouldn't act shocked that Sky go there regularly when it's well publicised that they have for years. The same way people saying they only go there due to the lack of testing they had been going for years before Froome's comment. You would think that is a good comment to make, hilding the WADA testers to account, saying we are all here why aren't you testing us

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

whats shocking is the lack of drug testing there.

as pointed out by C.Froome

why go all the way to Tenerife in April when there are other places where the same training goals can be achieve (eg: Calpe)?

Tinkoff have done a 2-week training camp in Gran Canaria just before christmas the last few years. It makes sense. A hotel chain there is a part-sponsor of the team (Anfi). It also makes sense that some riders will return there themselves in January for additional training.

What doesn't make sense is that Tinkov, despite their obvious connections to Gran Canaria, would then opt to travel to Tenerife in the spring, unless there was some other reason they would want to go there.

Possibly the same reasons that attract both Sky and Astana?

The reasons for going to Tenerife have been discussed over and over, there is even a thread somewhere about it. It's pretty much a perfect training base. Comparing it to Gran Canaria is a bit silly.

yes, it is, you are correct, and we're getting side-tracked from the original point I was trying to make.

which was, why did Syed not ask the question?

Your record is stuck.. lift the needle and move it over (assuming you ever did that).

 

[Bag of Guts]

Surely all this Tenerife stuff has been discussed to death in the Tenerife thread? It's an excellent place to train because of perfect roads, altitude, good weather all year round and you can guzzle as many drugs as you want because testers rarely go there and if they do, it's very difficult to turn up unannounced. Of course, that's assuming that testers are still in the business of turning up unannounced, surprising athletes during glow-time and returning positive tests. With the UCI, that's a pretty bold assumption.

 

[Bag of Guts]

Sorry, too late.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I was under the impression many teams go to Tenerife for a training block in between races which includes the Spring? Sky training there in Spring isn't a shocking revelation to me, thought everyone was aware of it

whats shocking is the lack of drug testing there.

as pointed out by C.Froome

why go all the way to Tenerife in April when there are other places where the same training goals can be achieve (eg: Calpe)?

Tinkoff have done a 2-week training camp in Gran Canaria just before christmas the last few years. It makes sense. A hotel chain there is a part-sponsor of the team (Anfi). It also makes sense that some riders will return there themselves in January for additional training.

What doesn't make sense is that Tinkov, despite their obvious connections to Gran Canaria, would then opt to travel to Tenerife in the spring, unless there was some other reason they would want to go there.

Possibly the same reasons that attract both Sky and Astana?

The reasons for going to Tenerife have been discussed over and over, there is even a thread somewhere about it. It's pretty much a perfect training base. Comparing it to Gran Canaria is a bit silly.

yes, it is, you are correct, and we're getting side-tracked from the original point I was trying to make.

which was, why did Syed not ask the question?

Why would any cycling journalist ask? The reasons for going to Tenerife have been discussed over and over and are obvious.