Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[kingjr]

Re: Sky

The riders of Team Sky are highly talented individuals who like all top athletes were born with natural genetic talent far beyond the reach and comprehension of the average individual's insight and analysis.

...but aren't all pros that reach the World Tour level of the sport? How does that make the Team Sky riders any different from the rest of the professional peloton?

Yes, all pros are. I'm not suggesting that Team Sky are any different to the rest of the riders in the Peloton. Semantics hey !!.

So if Team Sky are not any different to other riders on the World Tour how do they beat known dopers without doping

There are different kinds of talent. A doped talented sprinter will always be behind a clean talented climber on a MTF.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Re: Sky

The riders of Team Sky are highly talented individuals who like all top athletes were born with natural genetic talent far beyond the reach and comprehension of the average individual's insight and analysis.

...but aren't all pros that reach the World Tour level of the sport? How does that make the Team Sky riders any different from the rest of the professional peloton?

Yes, all pros are. I'm not suggesting that Team Sky are any different to the rest of the riders in the Peloton. Semantics hey !!.

So if Team Sky are not any different to other riders on the World Tour how do they beat known dopers without doping

There are different kinds of talent. A doped talented sprinter will always be behind a clean talented climber on a MTF.

On the top of my mind, Laurent Jalabert might disagree with that.

 

[doperhopper]

Re: Re:

Interesting the reactions post Wiggins fiasco. Surprising how many people still holding resolutely to the belief Sky are clean.
Seems like cognitive dissonance to me.

The evidence is quite damning. The rational objective response is surely to accept the damning evidence and at least move your belief from 'clean' to uncertainty. To maintain belief in 'completely clean' seems a little delusional. A bit of fence sitting is in order at least, surely?

Is this some kind of life affirming thing, needing sporting heroes to believe in? Or are the true believers here just stirring the pot for a bit light-hearted banter?

well, remarkably similar evolution as in the case of certain zero times Tour winner: fanbase gradually eroding as the allegations kept piling up, but those that remained gradually hardened up... so at the end there were only real hardcore pharmstrongistas

Agreed. The usps-sky similarieties are baffling on many levels, also wrt the behavioural curve of the fanbase.

The fall out came a bit earlier with Sky though. I mean the Believers vs. Doubters ratio was much more favourable for Lance around the same time.
Which is no surprise of course considering some people (albeit not too many, and certainly not the UK press) have actually learned from the Lance case, and I guess increased power/reach of social media also plays its part.

Only very few whose learning curve has actually been backwards. Walsh being the most striking example.

See that's the problem right there and that is comparing Team Sky to Lance Armstrong and US Postal. Sky and Us Postal are worlds apart. You can't compare both. For example Sky are especially in the Tour de France deploying the so called train on a daily basis, US postal done the same so the argument goes that Sky must be doping. Same goes for all other current teams dominating the pace setting on the front of the Peloton just like US Postal so they must be doping. No Sky riders ever tested positive, neither did Armstrong (well he did of course), neither did Marion Jones so the argument goes that because these athletes never tested positive then Sky are able to cheat the system. Sky will get rid of employees, doctors and riders etc, who have had an affiliation with doping on some level or another so the argument goes that this has all to do with public relations, etc, ect. Sky are subject to the Biological Passport so the argument goes that it can be manipulated and Sky are real Houdini's at performing this magic. Sky have a magic potion up their sleeves that no one else has access to. These futile arguments go on and yet no one has ever proved anything because there is nothing to prove. These extraordinary allegations must be followed up by extraordinary proof.

I wouldn't call saying that pro cyclists dope "extraordinary allegations" but YMMV i guess...

It's New Clean Era now, so how about: Extraordinary performances require extraordinary scrutiny!

E.g. beating lifelong dopers, beating dirty era climbing times, performance jumps, weight losses, whole team going up, esp. suddenly, all newcomers to the team stepping up their game, etc etc.

 

[noddy69]

Re: Sky

The riders of Team Sky are highly talented individuals who like all top athletes were born with natural genetic talent far beyond the reach and comprehension of the average individual's insight and analysis.

...but aren't all pros that reach the World Tour level of the sport? How does that make the Team Sky riders any different from the rest of the professional peloton?

Yes, all pros are. I'm not suggesting that Team Sky are any different to the rest of the riders in the Peloton. Semantics hey !!.

So if Team Sky are not any different to other riders on the World Tour how do they beat known dopers without doping

There are different kinds of talent. A doped talented sprinter will always be behind a clean talented climber on a MTF.

Ok but we aren't talking about different kinds of talent- we are talking about Sky v peleton...and Sky keep winning. So question is still valid.

 

[Dan2016]

My instinct says Zyph and Rick are having a bit fun here. Not being trolls, no nasty undercurrents, just having a bit fun as false 'true believers'. I'm often wrong though.

If I am wrong, I'm genuinely curious. As Sniper I think it was wrote above it's reminiscent of Armstrong's true believers.
I was chatting to a fellow rider the other day about Sky and the Wiggins stuff and I was surprised at how tight he had the blinkers on. Reminded me of trying to have a rational conversation about belief with fervent fundamentalist religious believers, of whatever denomination; basically it's impossible.

I suppose we can all put blinkers on at times, can't we?
I'm thinking it's about emotional investment. If we've become emotionally invested in the the hope and inspiration of the cancer survivor turned Tour winner, or the new generation of completely clean cycling heralded in by the all-conquering (all-singing-and-dancing-fluffy-pillows!!) Sky, it can be difficult to let go of that belief when contradictory evidence emerges. There would be a sense of loss, which is difficult, so denial sets in.

Maybe all Sky riders are juiced to their eyeballs; objectively we don't know for certain. But for anyone to maintain after recent revelations that they're completely clean is...erm...a bit bonkers...

Synopsis: Zyph and Rick are totally bonkers! (said in jest of course)

 

[Irondan]

Re:

My instinct says Zyph and Rick are having a bit fun here. Not being trolls, no nasty undercurrents, just having a bit fun as false 'true believers'. I'm often wrong though.

If I am wrong, I'm genuinely curious. As Sniper I think it was wrote above it's reminiscent of Armstrong's true believers.
I was chatting to a fellow rider the other day about Sky and the Wiggins stuff and I was surprised at how tight he had the blinkers on. Reminded me of trying to have a rational conversation about belief with fervent fundamentalist religious believers, of whatever denomination; basically it's impossible.

I suppose we can all put blinkers on at times, can't we?
I'm thinking it's about emotional investment. If we've become emotionally invested in the the hope and inspiration of the cancer survivor turned Tour winner, or the new generation of completely clean cycling heralded in by the all-conquering (all-singing-and-dancing-fluffy-pillows!!) Sky, it can be difficult to let go of that belief when contradictory evidence emerges. There would be a sense of loss, which is difficult, so denial sets in.

Maybe all Sky riders are juiced to their eyeballs; objectively we don't know for certain. But for anyone to maintain after recent revelations that they're completely clean is...erm...a bit bonkers...

Synopsis: Zyph and Rick are totally bonkers! (said in jest of course)

If they're faking it, they're doing a fantastic job..... Maybe even Oscar worthy! :lol:

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Re: Re:

Interesting the reactions post Wiggins fiasco. Surprising how many people still holding resolutely to the belief Sky are clean.
Seems like cognitive dissonance to me.

The evidence is quite damning. The rational objective response is surely to accept the damning evidence and at least move your belief from 'clean' to uncertainty. To maintain belief in 'completely clean' seems a little delusional. A bit of fence sitting is in order at least, surely?

Is this some kind of life affirming thing, needing sporting heroes to believe in? Or are the true believers here just stirring the pot for a bit light-hearted banter?

well, remarkably similar evolution as in the case of certain zero times Tour winner: fanbase gradually eroding as the allegations kept piling up, but those that remained gradually hardened up... so at the end there were only real hardcore pharmstrongistas

Agreed. The usps-sky similarieties are baffling on many levels, also wrt the behavioural curve of the fanbase.

The fall out came a bit earlier with Sky though. I mean the Believers vs. Doubters ratio was much more favourable for Lance around the same time.
Which is no surprise of course considering some people (albeit not too many, and certainly not the UK press) have actually learned from the Lance case, and I guess increased power/reach of social media also plays its part.

Only very few whose learning curve has actually been backwards. Walsh being the most striking example.

See that's the problem right there and that is comparing Team Sky to Lance Armstrong and US Postal. Sky and Us Postal are worlds apart. You can't compare both. For example Sky are especially in the Tour de France deploying the so called train on a daily basis, US postal done the same so the argument goes that Sky must be doping. Same goes for all other current teams dominating the pace setting on the front of the Peloton just like US Postal so they must be doping. No Sky riders ever tested positive, neither did Armstrong (well he did of course), neither did Marion Jones so the argument goes that because these athletes never tested positive then Sky are able to cheat the system. Sky will get rid of employees, doctors and riders etc, who have had an affiliation with doping on some level or another so the argument goes that this has all to do with public relations, etc, ect. Sky are subject to the Biological Passport so the argument goes that it can be manipulated and Sky are real Houdini's at performing this magic. Sky have a magic potion up their sleeves that no one else has access to. These futile arguments go on and yet no one has ever proved anything because there is nothing to prove. These extraordinary allegations must be followed up by extraordinary proof.

The fact that they got rid of the personnel with links to doping when they the info got out means nothing IMO. The fact they hired them in the first place on the other end... i mean you can't believe that they didn't know about Leindeers, not with a former rabo rider like Flecha on their roster... And friggin' Mick Rogers for *** sake... How do you think they managed to make him perform clean at least as good as when he was working wth Ferrari/a Freiburg client?
Servais Knaven is still working for them btw!
The biological paspport can be cheated btw, it is more useful as a tool to know wich rider to target test. Only the most reckless dopers get caught directly by it and even in those case it's not foolproof, see Kreuziger, Roman.
*** with what we know about the UCI, it might actually be a useful tool for them to rig the game...

 

[sniper]

As somebody else said, Sky/BC staff were/are a collection of commonly known dopers and facilitators who had somehow managed to avoid public exposure (Yates Julich Sutton Knaven Cioni DeJongh,Leinders, Sciandri, Ellingwirth *** me you name them).

 

[ferryman]

Re:

I have met a member of Team Sky on several occasions. I know him. He was born within the same area that I was. I know for a fact that he doesn't dope nor has he ever doped. So he is not part of some imagined systematic doping programme on Team Sky. That's his story. As for the rest of the team I honestly feel that they are clean also.

I was going to respond but remembered Neil Young put it better:

'I really got some news
I met a man from Mars.
He picked up all my guitars
And played me traveling songs.

And when we got on ship
He brought out
something for the trip
And said, It's old but it's good
Like any other primitive would.'

 

[Zypherov]

Re: Re:

I have met a member of Team Sky on several occasions. I know him. He was born within the same area that I was. I know for a fact that he doesn't dope nor has he ever doped. So he is not part of some imagined systematic doping programme on Team Sky. That's his story. As for the rest of the team I honestly feel that they are clean also.

I was going to respond but remembered Neil Young put it better:

'I really got some news
I met a man from Mars.
He picked up all my guitars
And played me traveling songs.

And when we got on ship
He brought out
something for the trip
And said, It's old but it's good
Like any other primitive would.'

And what has that nonsense got to do with my post. Perhaps you should read my post and learn something.

Please provide evidence that Sky are doping. You can't. If that post is the best you can do then perhaps you should just forget about it.

 

[Dan2016]

Well I was amused anyway Ferryman, clever reply.
Neil Young drug-addled lyrics in the clinic. Ha!

Here's some Kylie Minogue
'La la la
La la la la la
La la la
La la la la la'

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I have met a member of Team Sky on several occasions. I know him. He was born within the same area that I was. I know for a fact that he doesn't dope nor has he ever doped. So he is not part of some imagined systematic doping programme on Team Sky. That's his story. As for the rest of the team I honestly feel that they are clean also.

I was going to respond but remembered Neil Young put it better:

'I really got some news
I met a man from Mars.
He picked up all my guitars
And played me traveling songs.

And when we got on ship
He brought out
something for the trip
And said, It's old but it's good
Like any other primitive would.'

And what has that nonsense got to do with my post. Perhaps you should read my post and learn something.

Please provide evidence that Sky are doping. You can't. If that post is the best you can do then perhaps you should just forget about it.

Sky hired a doctor banned for life from the sport (afterwards). If that is not considered evidence then you might as well believe in Santa Claus.

 

[Zypherov]

Re: Re:

I have met a member of Team Sky on several occasions. I know him. He was born within the same area that I was. I know for a fact that he doesn't dope nor has he ever doped. So he is not part of some imagined systematic doping programme on Team Sky. That's his story. As for the rest of the team I honestly feel that they are clean also.

I was going to respond but remembered Neil Young put it better:

'I really got some news
I met a man from Mars.
He picked up all my guitars
And played me traveling songs.

And when we got on ship
He brought out
something for the trip
And said, It's old but it's good
Like any other primitive would.'

And what has that nonsense got to do with my post. Perhaps you should read my post and learn something.

Please provide evidence that Sky are doping. You can't. If that post is the best you can do then perhaps you should just forget about it.

Sky hired a doctor banned for life from the sport (afterwards). If that is not considered evidence then you might as well believe in Santa Claus.

Sky are clean. When are you going to get that through to your thick skull or anyone else for that matter. Just because Leinders was at the Team proves absolutely nothing at all. Why do you think they got rid of him. ? You should be all sued for libel. :lol:

 

[veganrob]

Ho Ho Ho, Merry Christmas!

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

I have met a member of Team Sky on several occasions. I know him. He was born within the same area that I was. I know for a fact that he doesn't dope nor has he ever doped. So he is not part of some imagined systematic doping programme on Team Sky. That's his story. As for the rest of the team I honestly feel that they are clean also.

I was going to respond but remembered Neil Young put it better:

'I really got some news
I met a man from Mars.
He picked up all my guitars
And played me traveling songs.

And when we got on ship
He brought out
something for the trip
And said, It's old but it's good
Like any other primitive would.'

Bloody fifers

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

I have met a member of Team Sky on several occasions. I know him. He was born within the same area that I was. I know for a fact that he doesn't dope nor has he ever doped. So he is not part of some imagined systematic doping programme on Team Sky. That's his story. As for the rest of the team I honestly feel that they are clean also.

I was going to respond but remembered Neil Young put it better:

'I really got some news
I met a man from Mars.
He picked up all my guitars
And played me traveling songs.

And when we got on ship
He brought out
something for the trip
And said, It's old but it's good
Like any other primitive would.'

And what has that nonsense got to do with my post. Perhaps you should read my post and learn something.

Please provide evidence that Sky are doping. You can't. If that post is the best you can do then perhaps you should just forget about it.

Sky hired a doctor banned for life from the sport (afterwards). If that is not considered evidence then you might as well believe in Santa Claus.

Well your argument for sky doping was so well executed with proof of sky doping, quick where are the pitchforks

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I have met a member of Team Sky on several occasions. I know him. He was born within the same area that I was. I know for a fact that he doesn't dope nor has he ever doped. So he is not part of some imagined systematic doping programme on Team Sky. That's his story. As for the rest of the team I honestly feel that they are clean also.

I was going to respond but remembered Neil Young put it better:

'I really got some news
I met a man from Mars.
He picked up all my guitars
And played me traveling songs.

And when we got on ship
He brought out
something for the trip
And said, It's old but it's good
Like any other primitive would.'

And what has that nonsense got to do with my post. Perhaps you should read my post and learn something.

Please provide evidence that Sky are doping. You can't. If that post is the best you can do then perhaps you should just forget about it.

Sky hired a doctor banned for life from the sport (afterwards). If that is not considered evidence then you might as well believe in Santa Claus.

Well your argument for sky doping was so well executed with proof of sky doping, quick where are the pitchforks

Your rebuttal of Sky hiring a doping doctor now banned from sport for life is genius.

 

[ferryman]

Re: Re:

I have met a member of Team Sky on several occasions. I know him. He was born within the same area that I was. I know for a fact that he doesn't dope nor has he ever doped. So he is not part of some imagined systematic doping programme on Team Sky. That's his story. As for the rest of the team I honestly feel that they are clean also.

I was going to respond but remembered Neil Young put it better:

'I really got some news
I met a man from Mars.
He picked up all my guitars
And played me traveling songs.

And when we got on ship
He brought out
something for the trip
And said, It's old but it's good
Like any other primitive would.'

Bloody fifers

Edinburgher actually! If I was a Fifer, I would have quoted 'I Walk the Line' by one of their finest exports, Mr Cash. Pretty much the same story as Mr Young's quote....

 

[Rob27172]

Re: Re:

Sky hired a doctor banned for life from the sport (afterwards). If that is not considered evidence then you might as well believe in Santa Claus.[/quote]

Sky are clean. When are you going to get that through to your thick skull or anyone else for that matter. Just because Leinders was at the Team proves absolutely nothing at all. Why do you think they got rid of him. ? You should be all sued for libel. :lol:[/quote]

Sky are clean La La La La La
Sky are clean La La La La La
Sky are clean La La La La La

Have all those ridiculous people who know anything about cycling gone away yet

Head in sand time

 

[Craigee]

Re: Re:

Interesting the reactions post Wiggins fiasco. Surprising how many people still holding resolutely to the belief Sky are clean.
Seems like cognitive dissonance to me.

The evidence is quite damning. The rational objective response is surely to accept the damning evidence and at least move your belief from 'clean' to uncertainty. To maintain belief in 'completely clean' seems a little delusional. A bit of fence sitting is in order at least, surely?

Is this some kind of life affirming thing, needing sporting heroes to believe in? Or are the true believers here just stirring the pot for a bit light-hearted banter?

well, remarkably similar evolution as in the case of certain zero times Tour winner: fanbase gradually eroding as the allegations kept piling up, but those that remained gradually hardened up... so at the end there were only real hardcore pharmstrongistas

Agreed. The usps-sky similarieties are baffling on many levels, also wrt the behavioural curve of the fanbase.

The fall out came a bit earlier with Sky though. I mean the Believers vs. Doubters ratio was much more favourable for Lance around the same time.
Which is no surprise of course considering some people (albeit not too many, and certainly not the UK press) have actually learned from the Lance case, and I guess increased power/reach of social media also plays its part.

Only very few whose learning curve has actually been backwards. Walsh being the most striking example.

See that's the problem right there and that is comparing Team Sky to Lance Armstrong and US Postal. Sky and Us Postal are worlds apart. You can't compare both. For example Sky are especially in the Tour de France deploying the so called train on a daily basis, US postal done the same so the argument goes that Sky must be doping. Same goes for all other current teams dominating the pace setting on the front of the Peloton just like US Postal so they must be doping. No Sky riders ever tested positive, neither did Armstrong (well he did of course), neither did Marion Jones so the argument goes that because these athletes never tested positive then Sky are able to cheat the system. Sky will get rid of employees, doctors and riders etc, who have had an affiliation with doping on some level or another so the argument goes that this has all to do with public relations, etc, ect. Sky are subject to the Biological Passport so the argument goes that it can be manipulated and Sky are real Houdini's at performing this magic. Sky have a magic potion up their sleeves that no one else has access to. These futile arguments go on and yet no one has ever proved anything because there is nothing to prove. These extraordinary allegations must be followed up by extraordinary proof.

The fact that they got rid of the personnel with links to doping when they the info got out means nothing IMO. The fact they hired them in the first place on the other end... i mean you can't believe that they didn't know about Leindeers, not with a former rabo rider like Flecha on their roster... And friggin' Mick Rogers for **** sake... How do you think they managed to make him perform clean at least as good as when he was working wth Ferrari/a Freiburg client?
Servais Knaven is still working for them btw!
The biological paspport can be cheated btw, it is more useful as a tool to know wich rider to target test. Only the most reckless dopers get caught directly by it and even in those case it's not foolproof, see Kreuziger, Roman.
**** with what we know about the UCI, it might actually be a useful tool for them to rig the game...

No No No it is quite believable that Sky didn't know anything about Leindeers. Remember Brailsford had never heard of Kenacort either and what it can do as a doping agent.

They are very innocent and gullible at Sky. One wonders how they win so much?

 

[B_Ugli]

Of course Brailsford probably doesn't know anything about this either:

Diego Rosa
From: Astana
To: Team Sky

BMC and Team Sky fought over Rosa's future throughout the spring with both teams keen on the Italian's signature. In the end British Pound won over US Dollar and Dave Brailsford landed his latest acquisition from a team he once felt the UCI should sanction and ban.

Speaking of bans, Rosa also found himself on the cusp of a suspension during the season due to three possible whereabouts errors. However two of those episodes were struck off just before the Olympics, leaving the Italian clear to race.

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

I have met a member of Team Sky on several occasions. I know him. He was born within the same area that I was. I know for a fact that he doesn't dope nor has he ever doped. So he is not part of some imagined systematic doping programme on Team Sky. That's his story. As for the rest of the team I honestly feel that they are clean also.

I was going to respond but remembered Neil Young put it better:

'I really got some news
I met a man from Mars.
He picked up all my guitars
And played me traveling songs.

And when we got on ship
He brought out
something for the trip
And said, It's old but it's good
Like any other primitive would.'

Bloody fifers

Edinburgher actually! If I was a Fifer, I would have quoted 'I Walk the Line' by one of their finest exports, Mr Cash. Pretty much the same story as Mr Young's quote....

A edinbugger landed in Fife, you must feel like you're on another planet...unless it's at Andrews you've landed in

 

[doperhopper]

Seeing this CN article, the obvious question comes: what was wrong with Landa this year? Some kind of marginal transformation badzilla?

Let's not forget, we may be heading to all-SKY 2017:

Landa may storm Giro big time... and if Vroom wins Tour easily (e.g. Nairito crashes and ruins his season), he can grab Vuelta if there's not much opposition.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/landa-sets-sights-on-giro-ditalia-for-2017/

 

[pastronef]

Re:

Seeing this CN article, the obvious question comes: what was wrong with Landa this year? Some kind of marginal transformation badzilla?

Let's not forget, we may be heading to all-SKY 2017:

Landa may storm Giro big time... and if Vroom wins Tour easily (e.g. Nairito crashes and ruins his season), he can grab Vuelta if there's not much opposition.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/landa-sets-sights-on-giro-ditalia-for-2017/

I wouldnt like that.
and I dont think the clinic servers could handle the blow.
I just want them in yellow in July, and Elissonde and Rosa to go bezerk in a few stages/races

 

[doperhopper]

Re: Sky

Wondering how Great Transformations work?

marginal food, marginal proteins, marginal timing, marginal lean mass, marginally lightweight muscles... that's how it works!

lean mass around 10:30
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gzd-nYSDgos

wondering whether it would work for this knight - from big TT guy to lightweight climber while losing weight and simultaneously gaining watts