Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

She? That is so lame it's hilarious. It became obvious when you accused me of being angry and tripping myself up that your MO is to goad people into getting wound up and heated, where upon you unleash your patented condescension and claims of winning an argument when you lack the wit to actually engage in it.

So instead I'll claim the win.

She? Are you serious? I assumed you were out of school but now I'm not so sure.

Hahaha, seriously that's funny. She.

Oh and again it's 'you're clean she said'

I don't know. You appear to have taken the bait fairly well. Besides this is not about winning or losing. It's about forming constructive arguments.

I didn't see dismantling you as a victory. On the contrary. It was a lesson. I taught you a very valuable lesson. One I hope you learn from.

But don't let that distract from your simple truth.

By not being as fast as USPS or Pantani means you're clean. Simple truth.

LOL! Simple truth. I like that. Cute.

 

[thehog]

well, I do seem to recall you made the claim that Sky was obviously doping because of their performance. The claims I just made suggest why this is a poor inference because performance - unless it is physiologically unrealistic - is neither evidence for or against doping. To serve as evidence it has to increase the conditional probability I mentioned, but you fall back on the unconditional probability (base rates). To do that, you'd need to show some reliable correlations between doping positives and performance. This used to be easy. Not anymore. As Schleck's case illustrates, they can actually be negatively correlated.

I have to do nothing of the sort. 20+ years in cycling is all I need.

Seen it all.

As I stated I'm providing observations not testimony. Dont get all serious on me!

Lighten up. I'm not holding Brad Wiggins hostage. He'll still win the race.

But in my very well informed opinion he is doping along with his team.

 

[sittingbison]

haha its not the tempo. People bleat about the tempo, but ignore the accelerations of Rogers and Porte that have occurred each day in the Alps and Pyrenees, that have completely decimated the yellow jersey group leaving only the four Sky guys and the usual suspects.

It was laughingly pointed out on the smallish climb of stage 7 when this phenomena first occurred that Rogers and Porte rolled over the finish just behind Evans and Wiggins, when in the past, even with USPS the domestiques fell by the wayside and left the last few kms to the GC riders. Laughs on the other side of the face now, looking at the pst two weeks and yesterdays fiasco of a result. Anyone want to spot where Porte and Rogers finished?

 

[thehog]

haha its not the tempo. People bleat about the tempo, but ignore the accelerations of Rogers and Porte that have occurred each day in the Alps and Pyrenees, that have completely decimated the yellow jersey group leaving only the four Sky guys and the usual suspects.

It was laughingly pointed out on the smallish climb of stage 7 when this phenomena first occurred that Rogers and Porte rolled over the finish just behind Evans and Wiggins, when in the past, even with USPS the domestiques fell by the wayside and left the last few kms to the GC riders. Laughs on the other side of the face now, looking at the pst two weeks and yesterdays fiasco of a result. Anyone want to spot where Porte and Rogers finished?

For stage 7 there's actually a video on VeloNews of Rogers and Porte crossing the line laughing! No joke. They looked entirely refreshed and they were laughing out loud! Insane.

 

[Forunculo]

Bradley and Chris travelling to Paris

Brailsford preparing the next stage

This is my review of sky's Tour

 

[AcademyCC]

I don't know. You appear to have taken the bait fairly well. Besides this is not about winning or losing. It's about forming constructive arguments.

I didn't see dismantling you as a victory. On the contrary. It was a lesson. I taught you a very valuable lesson. One I hope you learn from.

But don't let that distract from your simple truth.

By not being as fast as USPS or Pantani means you're clean. Simple truth.

LOL! Simple truth. I like that. Cute.

Please tell me your not being serious about the dismantling part? Your either joking or delusional.

 

[straydog]

Nope, unlike you, I don't need that validation. I'm happy with what I've achieved in life. I participated in sport to a high level when younger without being a world-beater, and I'm comfortable with that. Now I'm married with a young family, and I wouldn't change it for anything. I don't have a desire to feel important, so your terrible cross-forum analysis fails dismally, AGAIN.



So you did try and belittle him, and edited it. Glad you cleared that up. And no, I'm correct. Wiggins finished 5th in an ITT, not 4th as you claimed. The timing screens were pretty clear on that one at the time. I presume it's you, then, who doesn't know results? Not been following the sport long then?



He came 4th in a prologue, yes. I was aware of it. I watched it, and I never said I wasn't aware of it Again you persist with this revisionist rubbish and utter falsehood. I also watched Vino win a time trial that year, something that seems to have escaped your memory (although I note with interest it apparently not escaping yours that Lance won a load of TdF's - bit selective of you?).



Not quite sure why you put an exclamation mark on London, like the location was remotely relevant. But I'd say I've been watching the sport probably longer than you have. I just don't have a need to bring out a viewing palmares to play your pathetic, stupid little game.



Expertise as an elite.
Pray tell, what expertise is that, or are you simply making crap up yet again?
Again with the incorrect pseudo-analysis. I'm not trying to get a rise out of anyone.



Yea, it's almost be like starting a thread seeking validation entitled "Why I will always be "fanboy" and proud of it". Not like you need that at all.

Nice dodge on all the Kimmage lies by the way - don't want to admit to those so just skip them?

If you watched it how come you asked me for a link to prove it? And he was officially fourth in the ITT. Remember Vino's little excursion to get a bag of his old man's blood?

My friend I would say I have been competing in this sport since well before you started watching it. I have a good few years on you. But listen you can come back at me and what must be my "crap" and my experience as much as you like. Be my guest. No matter how sweetly you ask you won't be getting my name so that is your prerogative. And even if you were an avid early 90's UK, irish and european amateur cycling fan, it is highly unlikely you would have heard of me. By the way the "amateur" tag could be confusing, ask Darryl, I would do it for you, but he's got me on ignore. And it is also my prerogative to question your expertise in cycling. And your prerogative to avoid that question.

And please tell me what "lies" I have posted about kimmage? I keep asking.


And just to add, if you had actually read my very first thread and could comprehend, it would be perfectly clear that I was not seeking or indeed expecting validation for defending LA. But if it makes you feel better about yourself, please carry on.

P.S I also am married with a young family, and I have a dog, and a career that I love and that is going great and that actually does make me feel very important. Do I win?

 

[Caruut]

Anonymous coward

 

[sittingbison]

Fixed %)

 

[straydog]

Anonymous coward

Ineffectual anonymous self "abusing" troll

Literally, you abused yourself there, not me.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Krebs cycle]

1) Nobody anywhere has ever said Wiggins had that amount of body fat. He's claimed the 4% figure in the past, and this is easily verifiable using google (he posted it on the guardian website, in an article he authored himself, in 2007) - he has since lost weight from that point and the Sky website lists him as 69kg. Now, how does a man, with a mediocre record at best 5 years ago on the road, and with 4% body fat at that point, LOSE weight and become one of the best time trialists and climbers in the world? Seriously, there's no medical explanation for it unless he was lying about his numbers.

I'm gonna try here one last time. You need to check your facts correctly, because as I've stated previously, you are simply making stuff up.

1. Mediocre record on the road 5yrs ago is FALSE.

2005 UCI world TT championships: 7th place, 1'08" behind Cancellara
2007 UCI world TT championships: 10th place, 2'10" behind Cancellara


2. Being at 4% bf and thereafter losing weight is FALSE.

Since you are the one using Wiggins own testimony as your proof, you can't turn around and tell me now that he is lying about these numbers here..

This is what Wiggins wrote in his guardian blog which is published in July 2009 during the TdF....

I was climbing fairly well in the 2007 Tour, but I've lost seven kilos since then: 78 to 71. It's taken nine months, in little increments, without any sort of crash diet. I've had regular check‑ups with Nigel Mitchell, the nutritionist at the Olympic team, to make sure I'm only burning fat, not any muscle. The last one was the day before the national championship, 28 June. He said I didn't have an ounce of fat left on my body. I was at 4% body fat

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/jul/19/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france

Regarding the weight loss, here is what British cycling coach, Matt Parker had to say...

"You develop a lot of muscle mass, particularly on the upper body, while training for the track over the winter," says Parker. "We wanted him to lose that, but to do it slowly, so that it didn't affect his power.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/jul/19/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france

Now if you think there is no medical explanation for losing 7kg from a combination of upper body muscle mass + body fat over a 9 month period then you need to wake up and get a reality check. I've been working with world class lightweight rowers for several years and sometimes the men will lose up to 3kgs in one month leading into competition and not lose any power.


I will happily admit that Sky could be doping and I'm not a Sky fanboy. I agree with everyone who points to circumstantial conspiracy theory evidence such as dodgey team doctors as reasons to be suspicious, but when you and sittingbison and whoever else start making up complete and utter BS about things such as performance, weight loss and power output, then it gets too much. You're completely wrong on these issues. Stick to the circumstantial conspiracy theories because you've got nothing else.

 

[thehog]

For stage 7 there's actually a video on VeloNews of Rogers and Porte crossing the line laughing! No joke. They looked entirely refreshed and they were laughing out loud! Insane.

Here's the video. Check the difference from Nibili/Evans to Rogers/Porte.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/stage-7-analysis-a-perfect-tactical-day-for-sky_228185

 

[Cavalier]

No matter how sweetly you ask you won't be getting my name so that is your prerogative.

If you wanted to, you could have prefaced all of your posts with "I'm an internet troll who is too afraid to put his name to his posts". Congratulations, now you're definitely on ignore. It's amazing how you ignore facts which are put forward, and try and claim your amateur career in the early 90s as being around the elite level.

Begone, troll!

 

[Krebs cycle]

it's amazing how you ignore facts which are put forward, and try and claim your amateur career in the early 90s as being around the elite level.

pot kettle black

 

[Nocontest]

I'm gonna try here one last time. You need to check your facts correctly, because as I've stated previously, you are simply making stuff up.

1. Mediocre record on the road 5yrs ago is FALSE.

2005 UCI world TT championships: 7th place, 1'08" behind Cancellara
2007 UCI world TT championships: 10th place, 2'10" behind Cancellara


2. Being at 4% bf and thereafter losing weight is FALSE.

Since you are the one using Wiggins own testimony as your proof, you can't turn around and tell me now that he is lying about these numbers here..

This is what Wiggins wrote in his guardian blog which is published in July 2009 during the TdF....


Regarding the weight loss, here is what British cycling coach, Matt Parker had to say...


Now if you think there is no medical explanation for losing 7kg from a combination of upper body muscle mass + body fat over a 9 month period then you need to wake up and get a reality check. I've been working with world class lightweight rowers for several years and sometimes the men will lose up to 3kgs in one month leading into competition and not lose any power.


I will happily admit that Sky could be doping and I'm not a Sky fanboy. I agree with everyone who points to circumstantial conspiracy theory evidence such as dodgey team doctors as reasons to be suspicious, but when you and sittingbison and whoever else start making up complete and utter BS about things such as performance, weight loss and power output, then it gets too much. You're completely wrong on these issues. Stick to the circumstantial conspiracy theories because you've got nothing else.

Good post, +1

While the conspiracy theories are good for a laugh, they get a bit tiresome after a while. A 7kg reduction is entirely achievable, and in fact it is not particularly hard to do, I have done it myself on many occasions over years of racing. If you combine diet with a well thought out conditioning programme there should be no reduction in power and in fact there could well be gains in terms of muscle optimisation.

 

[mastersracer]

For stage 7 there's actually a video on VeloNews of Rogers and Porte crossing the line laughing! No joke. They looked entirely refreshed and they were laughing out loud! Insane.

Have fun with this headline:

Tinkov wants to re-build Saxo Bank to become just like Sky

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tinkov-wants-to-re-build-saxo-bank-to-become-just-like-sky

 

[thehog]

Have fun with this headline:

Tinkov wants to re-build Saxo Bank to become just like Sky

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tinkov-wants-to-re-build-saxo-bank-to-become-just-like-sky

It's a poor headline as Tinkov doesn't actually say that. It's XyxkingNews's interpretation.

But you're on fire tonight though! Keep up the good work!

Go team Sky!

 

[Cavalier]

Thankfully I've got krebs on ignore, but it makes it more difficult when the rest of you keep quoting him.

Regardless, sky's own website lists him at 69kg. Last time I checked, that was a further weight loss from the period he said this at 71kg:

He said I didn't have an ounce of fat left on my body. I was at 4% body fat, which is just at the point where you begin to burn muscle because there's nothing else left.

Don't think anyone can deny he's improved further since 2009, and in his own words, he's burned 2kg of muscle.

Lost muscle, gained power + performance.
Made up 'conspiracy theory' indeed.

 

[sittingbison]

...If you combine diet with a well thought out conditioning programme there should be no reduction in power and in fact there could well be gains in terms of muscle optimisation.

perhaps you could read about 300 posts on this subject. Wiggans just won his 3rd gold medal 7th world pursuit championship bla bla, so presumably was ALREADY at the maximum of muscle optimisation. And what of the other elite climbers? Have they never thought Gee I'm a "fat bastadio", I'd better go on a diet and lose 12kg. Speaking of which, how does 82kg in 2008 to 69kg now equate to 7kg?

And as has ALSO been debunked about 100 times but ignored by certain posters, race results from five or ten years ago do not always prove the point you want to make, in fact often demonstrate the opposite, and have no actual bearing on what happens today. How are his prologue times consistent but ITT performance improved? How has he gone from the broom cart to maillot jeune? By training hard when every other elite cyclist from multiple world champion ITTers to previous GT winners is on the beach?

 

[Nocontest]

Here's the video. Check the difference from Nibili/Evans to Rogers/Porte.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/stage-7-analysis-a-perfect-tactical-day-for-sky_228185

Hmm, I guess you see what you want to see. I saw Rogers with more of a grimace than a smile and Porte was reasonably expressionless.

However the real nonsense in this post is in the fact that Rogers and Porte were not racing right up to the line like Evans/Nibali/Froome/Wiggins were. Not only that but video is probably edited as Porte and Rogers did not come in just behind Nibali and Evans as the video would indicate.

Good try though!!

 

[Krebs cycle]

Thankfully I've got krebs on ignore, but it makes it more difficult when the rest of you keep quoting him.

Regardless, sky's own website lists him at 69kg. Last time I checked, that was a further weight loss from the period he said this at 71kg:



Don't think anyone can deny he's improved further since 2009, and in his own words, he's burned 2kg of muscle.

Lost muscle, gained power + performance.
Made up 'conspiracy theory' indeed.

Wow just wow! You put me on ignore and then accuse other people of ignoring facts? I don't reckon I've ever seen more blatant hypocrisy in my entire life.

Nevertheless, it was entirely predictable you would IGNORE every fact I just posted and instead point out that Wiggins has lost 2kg over 3yrs.

That is actually what Rogers and Porte were laughing at in the video Hog posted......

Rogers: hey richie did you hear, cavalier thinks wiggo is doping because he lost 2kg in 3yrs
Porte: AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA


You're are really clutching at straws man. <INSANE>

 

[sittingbison]

...However the real nonsense in this post is in the fact that Rogers and Porte were not racing right up to the line like Evans/Nibali/Froome/Wiggins were. Not only that but video is probably edited as Porte and Rogers did not come in just behind Nibali and Evans as the video would indicate...)

Perhaps if you watched the race, you would have noticed they rolled across the line only 1:14 behind in 13th and 14th place.

Bit like last night actually, some things never change %)

 

[Nocontest]

perhaps you could read about 300 posts on this subject. Wiggans just won his 3rd gold medal 7th world pursuit championship bla bla, so presumably was ALREADY at the maximum of muscle optimisation. And what of the other elite climbers? Have they never thought Gee I'm a "fat bastadio", I'd better go on a diet and lose 12kg. Speaking of which, how does 82kg in 2008 to 69kg now equate to 7kg?

And as has ALSO been debunked about 100 times but ignored by certain posters, race results from five or ten years ago do not always prove the point you want to make, in fact often demonstrate the opposite, and have no actual bearing on what happens today. How are his prologue times consistent but ITT performance improved? How has he gone from the broom cart to maillot jeune? By training hard when every other elite cyclist from multiple world champion ITTers to previous GT winners is on the beach?

You are kidding right? Suffice to say that the gym specific training you would do for track is totally different to what you would do for MUCH longer endurance events such as the TdF, so optimisation for track specialisation is not optimisation for road racing. Secondly prologue times have little relevance to longer ITT times. Where he has improved is in his ability to hold his MSPO over the longer distances. He has always had the engine, that is evidenced by his ability and achievements on the track.

The broom cart to mailot jeune? I see a reasonably steady progression over the years as he has made the adjustment to the road.Over the past few years; 4th followed by a bad decision to ride a super hard Giro, good form last year but crashed out, leading this year but not a particularly strong field with no AS or AC in particular to test him and poorly performing Evans.

But hey, you believe what you want to believe, it's a free world.

 

[sittingbison]

...gym specific training you would do for track is totally different to what you would do for MUCH longer endurance events such as the TdF, so optimisation for track specialisation is not optimisation for road racing. Secondly prologue times have little relevance to longer ITT times. Where he has improved is in his ability to hold his MSPO over the longer distances. He has always had the engine, that is evidenced by his ability and achievements on the track...

hehe once again cant see the woods from the trees. So on the one hand we have his 4000m track pedigree that allows him to be competitive in prologues, ok in ITTs and broom cart GTs, but when his gym specific training and optimisation for GTs kicks in there is no loss in performance in the prologue.

That's called having your gateau and eating it too lol.

But hey, you believe what you want to believe, it's a free world.

 

[Cavalier]

Perhaps if you watched the race, you would have noticed they rolled across the line only 1:14 behind in 13th and 14th place.

Bit like last night actually, some things never change %)

No, last night was better. Porte actually beat home the riders in 6th and 9th place on GC, and Rogers only managed to finish with them.