Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Krebs cycle]

I'm confused

Brad says he was only burning fat, no muscle.
BC coach only mentions losing muscle mass (NOT just upper body).

So which is it?

Wiggins has 11 months to lose a combination of upper body muscle and fat after the 2008 Olympics. He loses muscle but once he gets down to 71kg and 4% bf about 1 week before the start of the 2009 TdF, he really really does NOT want to lose any more muscle.

Brad is a classic ectomorph, and would not have that much upper body to lose. IP starts equate to very little of the IP race and upper body strength is nowhere near as important as core strength in developing an effective start.

Krebs cycle - your name suggests you can tell us. IF Brad did lose muscle mass in his legs, does he also lose mitochondria? If he does lose mitochondria, does his absolute VO2max reduce proportionately (whilst relative VO2max may increase)?

Bravo! This is a much more complex question and not stupid at all. Nobody knows the answer because asaik Wiggins didn't have muscle biopsies to check these things. Maybe he lost no leg muscle mass? Maybe he lost a little bit but not enough to lose power? Maybe he did lose power over 4mins and so his best 4km track times were lower, but he improved his average power over longer distances by increasing his training volume (something which is known to stimulate mitochondrial biogenesis and capillarisation). I've done "power profile" testing on athletes before and you can see shifts in the profile (ie: shape of the hyperbolic relationship between power and time) over the course of a single season depending on what training phase you are in.

The reality is that any changes that did occur, happened slowly and gradually. There simply is no evidence of a sudden and large increase in his PPO which is what happens when you start a blood doping program. There is evidence that he lost weight and thus his w/kg went up which accounts for his improved hill climbing ability. So there is good chance his relative VO2max went up too. Big deal. That has been done by 1000s of cyclists from recreational to pro level for decades upon decades.

There are plenty of studies in the literature which show that mitochondrial density increases with endurance training and also altitude training. Here are a couple of recent publication to get you started....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20176680

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21775647


If you guys are so keen to learn about how it is possible for Bradley Wiggins to have transferred from track to road and you want to know his VO2max numbers in relative units, then why don't you just contact GB cycling and ask them directly?

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership/article/bcst-Contact-Us

Excellence & GB Cycling Team
General Enquiries t : 0161 274 2090 e: worldclass@britishcycling.org.uk

If you don't want to learn anything and are just trying to troll me, then how about you gtfo?

 

[Knutsen]

I'm not even defending Sky. I couldn't care less about Sky or Wiggins.

I am defending basic common sense, truth and reason.

Keep it up! Not much of that around here these days.

 

[Krebs cycle]

krebs, you are correct. It wasn't straydog saying the complete opposite to your good self, it was nocontest - saying the complete opposite for the same result. Here is the gist of it again as you didnt bother to read it.



hehe once again cant see the woods from the trees. So on the one hand we have his 4000m track pedigree that allows him to be competitive in prologues, ok in ITTs and broom cart GTs, but when his gym specific training and optimisation for GTs kicks in there is no loss in performance in the prologue.

That's called having your gateau and eating it too lol.

As I've said before, track pursuit riders compete in 7-10 day road stage races for training leading up to the world championships. They do high base volumes but lower annual volumes than road racers. Both track and road cyclists do training at all intensities through the human energetic spectrum, but in general, the shorter the distance, the greater the percentage of HIGH intensity training. In order for Wiggins to have been world class over 4km, he likely would have done a larger percentage of high intensity anaerobic training. When he transferred to road in earnest in late 2008, he likely would have increased his overall volume and concentrated more on aerobic, tempo and VO2max intensity work and cut out much of the anaerobic stuff. If you can follow that you should be able to recognize there is a high degree of cross over, but its not exactly the same, so in fact what you bolded above in nocontest's post is actually very similar to what I said previously.

The basic principles are not rocket science. The finer details are an art that only the best coaches in the world are able to perfect. I don't pretend to be at that level of experience and knowledge, but i have written periodised training programs that have led to world championship gold medals (in rowing), so I have a basic understanding.

 

[the big ring]

If you don't want to learn anything and are just trying to troll me, then how about you gtfo?

You calling me a troll?

 

[Cycle Chic]

From experiences once seen.... when riders/teams dope they get an air of superiority about them. That's the welcoming side effect. You start feeling like nothing can beat you.

I'm starting to see it in Team Sky.

Biggest tale tail sign is when a French journalist asks question in regards to doping. If you get a violent reaction.... = doping.

Let's see...

Spot on prediction from the Hog in June = Wiggins outburst

 

[sittingbison]

It's not like Wiggins is the first pursuiter to win a GT.

Sigh. Would you like to name them? If you look back a few pages there is a discussion. Perhaps Krebs or straydog can answer, after all they are both self proclaimed experts, and I am only a lazy ignorant grade F minus

When you name them, I'll discuss

 

[sittingbison]

You calling me a troll?

At least he didn't call you a lazy ignorant F minus

 

[simo1733]

Sigh. Would you like to name them? If you look back a few pages there is a discussion. Perhaps Krebs or straydog can answer, after all they are both self proclaimed experts, and I am only a lazy ignorant grade F minus

When you name them, I'll discuss

Coppi,Moser,Berzin.

 

[hrotha]

Coppi,Moser,Berzin.

Coppi is ancient, Moser had courses tailor-made for him (no, it's not comparable to this Tour with regards to Wiggins' abilities), Berzin, while talented, was doped to the gills.

Berzin however had the body type of a classic stage racer, same with Boardman, and contrary to Wiggins.

 

[Krebs cycle]

You calling me a troll?

no of course not. The big ring rocks

 

[Krebs cycle]

At least he didn't call you a lazy ignorant F minus

If you study hard enough and stop hassling me I'll bump it up to a C+, how about that?

 

[taiwan]

People didn't specialise to the same degree in those days though, did they.

 

[Cerberus]

Coppi,Moser,Berzin.

Berzin as has been pointed out was post-EPO. the two others did well in the GC from the very first GT they entered with Coppi winning the Giro at age 20 and Moser coming in at 15 at the age of 21ish.

 

[Nocontest]

Coppi is ancient, Moser had courses tailor-made for him (no, it's not comparable to this Tour with regards to Wiggins' abilities), Berzin, while talented, was doped to the gills.

Berzin however had the body type of a classic stage racer, same with Boardman, and contrary to Wiggins.

The body of a classic stage reacer lol. What the hell is that?

lets see here are some real clones....Merckx and Hinault....LeMond and Fignon....Pantani and Ullrich...or even better Indurain and Pantani!!...Schleck and Wiggins..Oh wait they are pretty similar.

Yep they all came out of the same mould

 

[Franklin]

This from the man who said Indurain won "several" road stages on his way to his tour victories, whereas he actually won none. Only TT's. He only ever won one road stage at the TDF in 90, when he was 10 minutes back on GC. Way to go on believability Hog.

You areabsolutely right on this one, but on the other hand you should also know that Miguel gave a away quite a few roadstages (for example to Bruyneel).

 

[Nocontest]

Sigh. Would you like to name them? If you look back a few pages there is a discussion. Perhaps Krebs or straydog can answer, after all they are both self proclaimed experts, and I am only a lazy ignorant grade F minus

When you name them, I'll discuss

Even if he was the first pursuiter to win; so what? This TdF has been perfect for him; long ITT's, 'challengers' playing into his hands by just trying to tempo ride him off their wheels barring a few short live attack by Nibali, not to mention having the strongest team.

Stage 17 was pathetic; a half baked attempt by LG to force the pace ending up with most of them getting dropped leaving Basso to do what he does best, maintain a quick but even tempo for Wiggo to sit behind...yawn. What we are witnessing is a tour absent of any great riders and had Contador been there we would have seen a much different tour, not battle of the B graders, young kids and ageing heroes.

 

[taiwan]

The jump in climbing results hasn't been dealt with - only "he lost weight" and "GC results before 2009 are irrelevant".

Also what is the difference between Wiggins and all the other top pursuit riders that undoubtedly have the engine for a highly lucrative GT podium?

Condescend away.

This is pro cycling. By far the simplest explanation for the transformation from autobus regular to MTF podium regular is blood manipulation. Of course evidence will be hard to come by as ever, but without claiming certainty, Sky's Tour has been too good to be true.

 

[Nocontest]

One of the reasons some folks are not listening to you Krebs is that there are two strong but opposite views.

Sky riders are doing something wrong (doping?) that others are not. Any view the the contrary is just delusional.

Sky/Wiggo are doing everything proper, have good character, folks who dare question this are at best misguided, worst cowards.

Of course, extreme comments on either side don't make sense, and you have presented some good facts. I just think those get lost in the more emotional argument.

+1 this post pretty much sums up the thread. personally I think that Krebs makes more sense than anyone on here, discounting the fanatically biased and the deliberate provocateurs .

 

[Nocontest]

krebs, you really don't have a clue. Perhaps you and straydog should get together and straighten your stories out viz a viz training and optimisation between road and track? Are they different or are they the same? What is the difference between 82 kg Cancellara (prologue king and world ITT champ, and 69kg Wiggo? Are those times of Rogers climber v2.2 showing him leeping up with the big boys of ITT (when Wiggo just handed Canc his head on a plate)?

Don't bother to answer, you just don't get it, and I cant be bothered reading long winded misinformed diatribe.

Actually, he does get it and it is your response that is misinformed. You are talking about a Cancellara who's training has been severely compromised this year due to injury, riding on a course that was not ideally suited to him and forget about Wiggins for a moment; there were several other riders who either beat or were close to FC who he would usually wipe the floor with.

Plus this talk about road vs track is BS. Back in the day riders regularly did both. I don't recall anyone whining about Eddie Merckx being a trackie who was winning GT's or for that matter him being a GT winner being able to set one hour records on the track...all without massive changes to his physique.

 

[taiwan]

Actually, he does get it and it is your response that is misinformed. You are talking about a Cancellara who's training has been severely compromised this year due to injury, riding on a course that was not ideally suited to him and forget about Wiggins for a moment; there were several other riders who either beat or were close to FC who he would usually wipe the floor with.

Plus this talk about road vs track is BS. Back in the day riders regularly did both. I don't recall anyone whining about Eddie Merckx being a trackie who was winning GT's or for that matter him being a GT winner being able to set one hour records on the track...all without massive changes to his physique.

You concede that it's not a well trodden path though - the single pursuiter to win a GT in the last 30 years was juiced anyway. Merckxs' was a different time - specialisation is greater nowadays, presumably because of higher standards.

 

[Cerberus]

Actually, he does get it and it is your response that is misinformed. You are talking about a Cancellara who's training has been severely compromised this year due to injury, riding on a course that was not ideally suited to him and forget about Wiggins for a moment; there were several other riders who either beat or were close to FC who he would usually wipe the floor with.

Plus this talk about road vs track is BS. Back in the day riders regularly did both. I don't recall anyone whining about Eddie Merckx being a trackie who was winning GT's or for that matter him being a GT winner being able to set one hour records on the track...all without massive changes to his physique.

I don't recall Merkckx being complete **** in the mountain for his first several GT's only to make a dramatic improvement from one year to the next.

 

[tofino]

Cash money aspect-5 million pounds for Wiggo

What kind of incentive could someone have for winning the Tour??? From http://www.marketingmagazine.co.uk/


Wiggins could earn £5m from off-track commercial deals
By John Reynolds, 20 July 2012, 1:10pm

Bradley Wiggins could earn up to £5m from off-track earnings, including sponsorship deals, should he achieve his expected victory at the Tour de France on Sunday.

 

[D-Queued]

Actually, he does get it and it is your response that is misinformed. You are talking about a Cancellara who's training has been severely compromised this year due to injury, riding on a course that was not ideally suited to him and forget about Wiggins for a moment; there were several other riders who either beat or were close to FC who he would usually wipe the floor with.

Plus this talk about road vs track is BS. Back in the day riders regularly did both. I don't recall anyone whining about Eddie Merckx being a trackie who was winning GT's or for that matter him being a GT winner being able to set one hour records on the track...all without massive changes to his physique.

I don't recall Merkckx being complete **** in the mountain for his first several GT's only to make a dramatic improvement from one year to the next.

Nah, something about Merckx wining all of the Jerseys - Yellow, Polka Dot, and Green - along with the combativity award and combination classification in his very first Tour (1969, at the age of 24). Had their been a white jersey, it would have been his as well.

Of course, he had already won the World's as an amateur before that.

Dave.

 

[Franklin]

Actually, he does get it and it is your response that is misinformed. You are talking about a Cancellara who's training has been severely compromised this year due to injury, riding on a course that was not ideally suited to him and forget about Wiggins for a moment; there were several other riders who either beat or were close to FC who he would usually wipe the floor with.

Plus this talk about road vs track is BS. Back in the day riders regularly did both. I don't recall anyone whining about Eddie Merckx being a trackie who was winning GT's or for that matter him being a GT winner being able to set one hour records on the track...all without massive changes to his physique.

We have a winner. Merckx could do it, so can Wiggins!

Merckx=Wiggins

I thought we had seen it all with Hinault=Wiggins!

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

You areabsolutely right on this one, but on the other hand you should also know that Miguel gave a away quite a few roadstages (for example to Bruyneel).

Not sure he gave that away to Bruyneel? He wanted to take time on the rest of the field and pretty much led out Bruyneel for the last few kms (Assuming I am thinking of the right stage) who out sprinted him in the last few metres.