Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Re: Sky

B_Ugli said:
Interesting comments from Dr Michael Ashenden back in 2012

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/oct/20/doping-team-sky-cyclin

Very surprised no one has contacted him for a comment on all this.
Even more pertinent from Ashenden, from his 2012 "Omerta 101" CN article:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/opinion-michael-ashenden-on-omerta-101/

"Despite the self-serving data bending and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers even within ‘new age’ cycling teams. Personally, I don’t accept that the ‘dark era’ has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise."
 
Mar 13, 2009
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vedrafjord said:
And remember this hillarious quote from Brailsford after the 2015 Tour, during which Roche cracked on the final climb during the TTT: "Instead of Nicholas Roche coming in just as a climber, which he can do, we asked him specifically not to lose too much weight, to keep his power" - a tone-deaf comment bearing in mind the huge weight loss without loss of power that Wiggins and Froome managed. To me it was basically an admission that Roche wasn't in the inner circle.
sniper said:
interesting point re Roche.
Brailsford thought he had in Roche, a rider who could mimic Hincapie and Rogers, be the super domestique engine for the TdF like Hincapie was for USPS, and Rogers became for Sky.
Vasil Kiryienka and Kurt Asle Arvesen were awesome super domestiques too, imo, they almost scaled the level of Rogers and Hincapie.

There are only 9 men on a roster for the Tour. 8 support riders and domestiques. Hincapie was doing the job of two men, plus he was an engine in the TTT, a powerful rider in the team timetrial. Rogers went uphill a bit better than Hincapie. Arvesen and Kiryienka were poor man's Hincapie. If I was building a support crew, Arvesen and Kiryienka would be two of the first men I recruited in the transfer market. Very strong engines, who could pull through the intermediate mountains.
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Sky

Wiggo's Package said:
B_Ugli said:
Interesting comments from Dr Michael Ashenden back in 2012

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/oct/20/doping-team-sky-cyclin

Very surprised no one has contacted him for a comment on all this.
Even more pertinent from Ashenden, from his 2012 "Omerta 101" CN article:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/opinion-michael-ashenden-on-omerta-101/

"Despite the self-serving data bending and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers even within ‘new age’ cycling teams. Personally, I don’t accept that the ‘dark era’ has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise."
I am reluctant to disagree with Ashenden, but at the time of Festina scandal, ie the 'dark era', riders were taking 41 different PED/Meds a day in GTs.

CIRC report had riders taking up 30 tablets a day during GTs.

I dont think the sport has changed at all.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
Back in the day, Bernard Hinault turned to the Renault bosses - the big bosses, the car-maker bosses - and gave them an ultimatum: Cyrille Guimard or him, one of them had to go. Renault, they made their choice and Hinault went.

Compare that to what Froome is doing: briefing hacks behind the scenes.

And why? Because he's a petulant little **** and still carries a grudge over 2012 and the promises made and broken. Chapeau? No.
Wait, what? You're holding up Bernard Hinault as some kind of patron saint of being straight with people and calling it like it is? Bernard Hinault? The same Bernard Hinault who was born on November 14th, 1954 in Yffiniac, Brittany? Is this some kind of blackcat/poe's law/kaufmannesque nihilistic meta-parody angle?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re: Sky

Wiggo's Package said:
B_Ugli said:
Interesting comments from Dr Michael Ashenden back in 2012

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/oct/20/doping-team-sky-cyclin

Very surprised no one has contacted him for a comment on all this.
Even more pertinent from Ashenden, from his 2012 "Omerta 101" CN article:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/opinion-michael-ashenden-on-omerta-101/

"Despite the self-serving data bending and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers even within ‘new age’ cycling teams. Personally, I don’t accept that the ‘dark era’ has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise."
aka John Nash Game Theory. won a Nobel Prize in economics for this. Was a Princeton mathematician. You would have watched the Hollywood feature film with Australian actor Russell Crowe on him, but the Nobel was for economics. I think. someone else google it, I am probably wrong.

Nothing changed wrt doping in cycling, yet the operation to keep it from the eyes of the administration, but more importantly, the public. The strategy just went further underground. They were already doing stuff that contravened regulations, why would they have done a volte face and then decide to live by the regulations. This is the fallacy in this JV thinking 'everyone got clean in 2006 and folks just stopped doping, because, you know, it was not cool anymore'.

not just Game Theory, a better lens is probably Insider-Outsider sociology. Or, some intersection of Game Theory and Insider-Outsider. The walls to Insider operations just are altered to protect it from the gaze of the Outsider.
 
May 26, 2010
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fmk_RoI said:
The Hegelian said:
I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.
Back in the day, Bernard Hinault turned to the Renault bosses - the big bosses, the car-maker bosses - and gave them an ultimatum: Cyrille Guimard or him, one of them had to go. Renault, they made their choice and Hinault went.

Compare that to what Froome is doing: briefing hacks behind the scenes.

And why? Because he's a petulant little **** and still carries a grudge over 2012 and the promises made and broken. Chapeau? No.
Apples and Oranges.

Hinault had a petulant side.

You also dont know if Froome has gone to Murdoch and demanded Brailsford's removal.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
You also dont know if Froome has gone to Murdoch and demanded Brailsford's removal.
the skinny kid from kenya does not have the patronage, he would not even get access to the foyer of James' office at Sky Broadcasting.
 
May 26, 2010
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blackcat said:
Benotti69 said:
You also dont know if Froome has gone to Murdoch and demanded Brailsford's removal.
the skinny kid from kenya does not have the patronage, he would not even get access to the foyer of James' office at Sky Broadcasting.
I think Cound is the Mouth of Froome and I bet she wangled James mobile number at a TdF after party :D
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
blackcat said:
Benotti69 said:
You also dont know if Froome has gone to Murdoch and demanded Brailsford's removal.
the skinny kid from kenya does not have the patronage, he would not even get access to the foyer of James' office at Sky Broadcasting.
I think Cound is the Mouth of Froome and I bet she wangled James mobile number at a TdF after party :D
I would not dare tell Michelle, but she is no Rebekah Brooks.
 
Aug 26, 2014
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Kimmage on Sky

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/03/interview-paul-kimmage-team-skys-charade-exposed/

Plus more fun and games from The Fail:

"He's not just been thrown under the bus, he's been held down for the bus to run over him a few times,' added Readle.

'He would not have taken any decisions on his own back, he does as he's told because that's the kind of guy he is. He's not an arrogant rogue doctor who's going to take it upon himself to run some kind of drugs programme.

'Besides that, at British Cycling and Team Sky they have meetings about meetings so I believe they would know what was going on."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-4287952/Dr-Freeman-thrown-bus-Dave-Brailsford.html

Skyfall definitely become a three box of popcorn affair.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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There is only a handful of anglophone journos who've shown a pair of balls in the past couple of years. Kimmage and Stokes are among them.

Great interview.
Interesting to hear about the anonymous email.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re:

sniper said:
There is only a handful of anglophone journos who've shown a pair of balls in the past couple of years. Kimmage and Stokes are among them.

Great interview.
Interesting to hear about the anonymous email.
The Empire Crew have hightailed it back to the safety of Bike Radar.
 
May 26, 2010
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Electress said:
Kimmage on Sky

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/03/interview-paul-kimmage-team-skys-charade-exposed/

Plus more fun and games from The Fail:

"He's not just been thrown under the bus, he's been held down for the bus to run over him a few times,' added Readle.

'He would not have taken any decisions on his own back, he does as he's told because that's the kind of guy he is. He's not an arrogant rogue doctor who's going to take it upon himself to run some kind of drugs programme.

'Besides that, at British Cycling and Team Sky they have meetings about meetings so I believe they would know what was going on."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-4287952/Dr-Freeman-thrown-bus-Dave-Brailsford.html

Skyfall definitely become a three box of popcorn affair.
I'd say there is a truck load of popcorn needed for this :D
 
Aug 26, 2014
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Benotti69 said:
Electress said:
Kimmage on Sky

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/03/interview-paul-kimmage-team-skys-charade-exposed/

Plus more fun and games from The Fail:

"He's not just been thrown under the bus, he's been held down for the bus to run over him a few times,' added Readle.

'He would not have taken any decisions on his own back, he does as he's told because that's the kind of guy he is. He's not an arrogant rogue doctor who's going to take it upon himself to run some kind of drugs programme.

'Besides that, at British Cycling and Team Sky they have meetings about meetings so I believe they would know what was going on."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-4287952/Dr-Freeman-thrown-bus-Dave-Brailsford.html

Skyfall definitely become a three box of popcorn affair.
I'd say there is a truck load of popcorn needed for this :D
I know, but I'm trying to watch my weight. No Kenalog on tap in my house.
 
May 26, 2010
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Electress said:
Benotti69 said:
Electress said:
Kimmage on Sky

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/03/interview-paul-kimmage-team-skys-charade-exposed/

Plus more fun and games from The Fail:

"He's not just been thrown under the bus, he's been held down for the bus to run over him a few times,' added Readle.

'He would not have taken any decisions on his own back, he does as he's told because that's the kind of guy he is. He's not an arrogant rogue doctor who's going to take it upon himself to run some kind of drugs programme.

'Besides that, at British Cycling and Team Sky they have meetings about meetings so I believe they would know what was going on."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-4287952/Dr-Freeman-thrown-bus-Dave-Brailsford.html

Skyfall definitely become a three box of popcorn affair.
I'd say there is a truck load of popcorn needed for this :D
I know, but I'm trying to watch my weight. No Kenalog on tap in my house.
Eat popcorn on the rollers :D
 
Aug 26, 2014
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I originally posted a much longer comment, but frankly, this is the nub of it for me. I'd appreciate someone who could check if this is correct, I'm not a medic nor a pharmacist, and nor have I the race manual for the 2011 Dauphine to hand...

According to Dr Freeman – he does not have prescription rights in France. I am not a medic nor a pharmacist so others will need to confirm or refute this, however, a cursory check of the Your Europe website ( http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/health/help-from-the-pharmacy/prescription/index_en.htm ) states: A prescription delivered by a doctor in your country is valid in all EU countries. However, a medicine prescribed in one country might not be available or it may have another name. You can ask for your doctor to give you a prescription to use in another EU country, also known as a "cross-border prescription". So does Dr Freeman have prescription rights or not, and, assuming the EU websie is correct, is it credible that given he knew he did in both Germany and Switzerland (a non-EU country notably), he didn't know these applied EU-wide?

Team Sky has provided UKAD with the receipts for purchases of Fluimucil from that pharmacy [in Munich] from 2011. There is also an example in records provided to UKAD of Fluimucil being purchased in Switzerland earlier in 2011, where it is also licensed for sale (and Dr Freeman had prescription rights). Given that Dr Freeman has prescription rights in Switzerland, and Flumicil has demonstrably previously been purchased in Switzerland, why wasn’t the Flumicil prescribed by Dr Freeman and the prescription taken / ordered from a Swiss pharmacy on or before the 8th June (when Cope picked up the package in Manchester, having gone up there from the South, thereby implying the package was ordered and made up at least the day before). Assuming the online routes and dates for the Dauphine are correct, on Friday 10 June 2011, the team arrived in Les Gets, within one hour of the Swiss border town of Morgins which has a pharmacy (Pharmacie de Troistorrents). If it was closed in the evening, the race left Les Gets at 1205 the next morning – plenty of time for someone to be dispatched and come back to get Flumicil and a lot easier than sending to the UK for it. Moreover, the race passed within a couple of miles of the Swiss border on the 9th – a fifteen minute car journey (from Vétraz-Monthoux, France to Thônex, Switzerland) and 30 minutes from central Geneva, where I’m sure there would be open pharmacies during the day. Why, if a medication was required to be sent specially from the UK, planned at least 4 days in advance, was it impossible for the team to fax a prescription to a nearby pharmacy in Switzerland, pick it up on the 9th or morning of the 10th. Surely better if their star rider and leader of the race was suffering so much congestion that they saw fit to order it 4 days ahead from home.

To be fair, I guess it might depend how common this prescription is, and how readily available it would be - i.e. would it take more than 4 days for an average pharmacy within an hour of Geneva to get?

I still want to know documents are available to corroborate the timeline of events – ie. The date the request was made for the package to be made up, the date Cope was informed, when flights, cars, hotels etc. were booked, the reason for the strange expenses from that Eastbourne Cope refutes, to Cope’s actual trip. Also, what if any evidence is there for the 'he was going anyway' defence, which the timeline and lack of his actually doing anything else but pick up a member of staff, seems to challenge?

While Dr Freeman appears to have failed to comply with team policy on this occasion... He doesn't appear to have failed, he has failed! As have the people responsible for the governance of the medical team. Moreover, from the point of view of evidence and due process, failing to keep and failing to archive, is precisely the same thing. The evidence cannot be produced to demonstrate there were records kepts and therefore we have no way of knowing whether any were. So much for Dr Peters systems of governance detailed in their later paragraphs

It is inevitable that some people will adopt new technology more easily and quickly than others. A man capable of doing what is required to become a highly paid Dr, administering to elite athletes, is incapable of using Dropbox for three years? Seriously, that is the excuse? I note the 'well, we trained them' piece later in the paragraph. Shame they didn't actually adequately ENFORCE them for at least 3 years before the laptop was lost.

Apologies for going on. I couldn't be bothered with the rest.
 
Re:

3. It is our understanding that while Fluimucil is licensed for sale in France, the particular form used by the team (i.e. 3ml, 10% ampoule form for use in a nebulizer) is not available for sale in France, nor to our knowledge was it available for sale in 2011. Can it be established whether it was for sale in France, and, if it was, whether it is reasonable that a cycling team commonly operating in France didn’t know it was? Can it be established that this is the only form / concentration of Flumicil that the team have used previously and that other options were geniuinely not available? Also, was it indeed not available in except by prescripton in France?

To the bolded - has Sky's user of nebulizer's been discussed before? For background, see the Doping in Skiing thread, in particular the Norwegian Asthmatic Ski Team.
 
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Electress said:
'G':

“It’s just frustrating that every journalist has an opinion."

Poor ole Sky, not quite sure what to do now the media aren't playing ball.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/thomas-supports-brailsford-and-complains-of-unfair-media-coverage/?utm_content=buffer51566&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
When we were and are being drowned in articles about each and every Sky rider, director, bicycle (How many times can they showcase the same Pinarello?) Thomas now wants to complain about the attention that the team is receiving? Often times you can look at the home page of Cycling News and there will be half of it devoted to Team Sky. It's gotten to be pretty sickening. Now that all the sincere devotion to being a clean, transparent team that was going to lift cycling out of the depths of its stupor, has been shown to be the bs that many knew that it was, I can' t help but take pleasure in it all coming back and smacking them in their smug faces.
 
Aug 26, 2014
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Angliru said:
Electress said:
'G':

“It’s just frustrating that every journalist has an opinion."

Poor ole Sky, not quite sure what to do now the media aren't playing ball.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/thomas-supports-brailsford-and-complains-of-unfair-media-coverage/?utm_content=buffer51566&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
When we were and are being drowned in articles about each and every Sky rider, director, bicycle (How many times can they showcase the same Pinarello?) Thomas now wants to complain about the attention that the team is receiving? Often times you can look at the home page of Cycling News and there will be half of it devoted to Team Sky. It's gotten to be pretty sickening. Now that all the sincere devotion to being a clean, transparent team that was going to lift cycling out of the depths of its stupor, has been shown to be the bs that many knew that it was, I can' t help but take pleasure in it all coming back and smacking them in their smug faces.
I know. I'm usually one of those people who starts to feel sorry when I see folks suffering, but frankly, I've suffered years of their BS and waited a long time for this moment. It's great.
 
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