Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[MatParker117]

Re:

I originally posted a much longer comment, but frankly, this is the nub of it for me. I'd appreciate someone who could check if this is correct, I'm not a medic nor a pharmacist, and nor have I the race manual for the 2011 Dauphine to hand...

According to Dr Freeman – he does not have prescription rights in France. I am not a medic nor a pharmacist so others will need to confirm or refute this, however, a cursory check of the Your Europe website ( http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/health/help-from-the-pharmacy/prescription/index_en.htm ) states: A prescription delivered by a doctor in your country is valid in all EU countries. However, a medicine prescribed in one country might not be available or it may have another name. You can ask for your doctor to give you a prescription to use in another EU country, also known as a "cross-border prescription". So does Dr Freeman have prescription rights or not, and, assuming the EU websie is correct, is it credible that given he knew he did in both Germany and Switzerland (a non-EU country notably), he didn't know these applied EU-wide?

Team Sky has provided UKAD with the receipts for purchases of Fluimucil from that pharmacy [in Munich] from 2011. There is also an example in records provided to UKAD of Fluimucil being purchased in Switzerland earlier in 2011, where it is also licensed for sale (and Dr Freeman had prescription rights). Given that Dr Freeman has prescription rights in Switzerland, and Flumicil has demonstrably previously been purchased in Switzerland, why wasn’t the Flumicil prescribed by Dr Freeman and the prescription taken / ordered from a Swiss pharmacy on or before the 8th June (when Cope picked up the package in Manchester, having gone up there from the South, thereby implying the package was ordered and made up at least the day before). Assuming the online routes and dates for the Dauphine are correct, on Friday 10 June 2011, the team arrived in Les Gets, within one hour of the Swiss border town of Morgins which has a pharmacy (Pharmacie de Troistorrents). If it was closed in the evening, the race left Les Gets at 1205 the next morning – plenty of time for someone to be dispatched and come back to get Flumicil and a lot easier than sending to the UK for it. Moreover, the race passed within a couple of miles of the Swiss border on the 9th – a fifteen minute car journey (from Vétraz-Monthoux, France to Thônex, Switzerland) and 30 minutes from central Geneva, where I’m sure there would be open pharmacies during the day. Why, if a medication was required to be sent specially from the UK, planned at least 4 days in advance, was it impossible for the team to fax a prescription to a nearby pharmacy in Switzerland, pick it up on the 9th or morning of the 10th. Surely better if their star rider and leader of the race was suffering so much congestion that they saw fit to order it 4 days ahead from home.

I still want to know documents are available to corroborate the timeline of events – ie. The date the request was made for the package to be made up, the date Cope was informed, when flights, cars, hotels etc. were booked, the reason for the strange expenses from that Eastbourne Cope refutes, to Cope’s actual trip. Also, what if any evidence is there for the 'he was going anyway' defence, which the timeline and lack of his actually doing anything else but pick up a member of staff, seems to challenge?

While Dr Freeman appears to have failed to comply with team policy on this occasion... He doesn't appear to have failed, he has failed! As have the people responsible for the governance of the medical team. Moreover, from the point of view of evidence and due process, failing to keep and failing to archive, is precisely the same thing. The evidence cannot be produced to demonstrate there were records kepts and therefore we have no way of knowing whether any were. So much for Dr Peters systems of governance detailed in their later paragraphs

It is inevitable that some people will adopt new technology more easily and quickly than others. A man capable of doing what is required to become a highly paid Dr, administering to elite athletes, is incapable of using Dropbox for three years? Seriously, that is the excuse? I note the 'well, we trained them' piece later in the paragraph. Shame they didn't actually adequately ENFORCE them for at least 3 years before the laptop was lost.

Apologies for going on. I couldn't be bothered with the rest.

Depends on what French law says

Freeman may not have had a prescription pad on him

Alan Farrell replaced Steve Peters as Sky's medical director at the end of 2012, a lot of these evolutions occurred after Farrell's appointment.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

'G':

“It’s just frustrating that every journalist has an opinion."

Poor ole Sky, not quite sure what to do now the media aren't playing ball.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/thomas-supports-brailsford-and-complains-of-unfair-media-coverage/?utm_content=buffer51566&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

When we were and are being drowned in articles about each and every Sky rider, director, bicycle (How many times can they showcase the same Pinarello?) Thomas now wants to complain about the attention that the team is receiving? Often times you can look at the home page of Cycling News and there will be half of it devoted to Team Sky. It's gotten to be pretty sickening. Now that all the sincere devotion to being a clean, transparent team that was going to lift cycling out of the depths of its stupor, has been shown to be the bs that many knew that it was, I can' t help but take pleasure in it all coming back and smacking them in their smug faces.

I know. I'm usually one of those people who starts to feel sorry when I see folks suffering, but frankly, I've suffered years of their BS and waited a long time for this moment. It's great.

Schadenfreude.
Schopenhauer (I think it was) said it's the most purely evil of all human emotions.
This forum is full of very naughty evil people.

 

[Benotti69]

Brailsford has them by the short and curlies or wants to much $$$$$s to bail!

Either way Sky backing him at present. Maybe other leaks will embarrass Brailsford but he has a neck it appears like a jockey's b..........

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

Depends on what French law says

Freeman may not have had a prescription pad on him

Alan Farrell replaced Steve Peters as Sky's medical director at the end of 2012, a lot of these evolutions occurred after Farrell's appointment.

Surely French law will be aligned to EU law, as indicated by the EU website?

Edit - Apologies for banging on, but according to the French:

Une prescription de médicaments ou de dispositifs médicaux effectuée dans un autre Etat membre de l'Union européenne ou de l'Espace Economique Européen (Islande, Liechtenstein et Norvège) doit être reconnue en France. Les médicaments prescrits pourront vous être délivrés à la condition que ceux-ci soient autorisés à la vente et disponibles en France.

Which my albeit moderate fe, indicates a french indicates a foreign prescription must be recognised in France, no?

And fair enough, maybe he didn't have his prescription pad on him (if indeed he needed it), but why not just say that in their evidence instead of going on about prescription rights?

As ever, there's a sea of words and claims, but no details to actually test it. I hope that Mr Collins et al. get to broaden their scope and pick over this stuff with a very fine tooth comb.

 

[MatParker117]

Re: Re:

Depends on what French law says

Freeman may not have had a prescription pad on him

Alan Farrell replaced Steve Peters as Sky's medical director at the end of 2012, a lot of these evolutions occurred after Farrell's appointment.

Surely French law will be aligned to EU law, as indicated by the EU website?

And fair enough, maybe he didn't have his prescription pad on him (if indeed he needed it), but why not just say that in their evidence instead of going on about prescription rights?

As ever, there's a sea of words and claims, but no details to actually test it. I hope that Mr Collins et al. get to broaden their scope and pick over this stuff with a very fine tooth comb.

It varies country to country I know in certain countries they will only honour a prescription that is less than two weeks old.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Sky

Also re laptop. If they could delete it remotely they could also have saved the files remotely, no?

Sky still playing the wrong game with fans and media. More than one hole in the a lovely person.

Still the main protagonists, Freeman and Wiggins not answering the simple question of what was in the Jiffy Bag and their reluctance to tell us with proof is just a disaster for a team that promised to be clean and transparent.

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

Depends on what French law says

Freeman may not have had a prescription pad on him

Alan Farrell replaced Steve Peters as Sky's medical director at the end of 2012, a lot of these evolutions occurred after Farrell's appointment.

Surely French law will be aligned to EU law, as indicated by the EU website?

And fair enough, maybe he didn't have his prescription pad on him (if indeed he needed it), but why not just say that in their evidence instead of going on about prescription rights?

As ever, there's a sea of words and claims, but no details to actually test it. I hope that Mr Collins et al. get to broaden their scope and pick over this stuff with a very fine tooth comb.

It varies country to country I know in certain countries they will only honour a prescription that is less than two weeks old.

Just checked the French website linked from eU site:

"Une prescription de médicaments ou de dispositifs médicaux effectuée dans un autre Etat membre de l'Union européenne ou de l'Espace Economique Européen (Islande, Liechtenstein et Norvège) doit être reconnue en France. Les médicaments prescrits pourront vous être délivrés à la condition que ceux-ci soient autorisés à la vente et disponibles en France."

Which my albeit moderate french indicates a foreign prescription must be recognised in France, no?

Interestingly, the EU site also says:
Updated : 10/01/2017

Presenting a prescription abroad

There is no specific form or format for a prescription you will use in another EU country. In most cases, the prescription you would use in your home country should already contain enough information for you to use it in another EU country. It has to contain at least the following information:

Patient details: surname and first name (both written in full), and date of birth
Date of issue of the prescription
Details of the prescribing doctor: surname and first name (written in full), professional qualification, direct contact details, work address (including the country), and signature (written or digital)
Details of the prescribed product: its common name (rather than the brand name, which may be different in another country), format (tablet, solution, etc), quantity, strength and dosage.

I have no idea how that works - seems to imply that so long as someone writes all that stuff down on a piece of paper and scrawls a signature then bobs your uncle, you're home and dry, which doesn't sound right!

Anyway, this isn't a thread about French pharmaceutical dispensation, so i shall cease and desist.

 

[Benotti69]

Kenacort 4 Everyone‏ @vayerism 2 minutes ago

This is brutal. Social media has buried the most recent sky statement in 2 hours.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Sky

well news international have (or had) form and went down the two rogue reporters road before the whole sorry charade was glaringly expose (making it all the worse)..

its the first line of defence...see if it sticks

their crap has been eaten up by journos and fans until now...it looks like the tide may have turned and there are now enough people asking basic questions...

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Depends on what French law says

Freeman may not have had a prescription pad on him

Alan Farrell replaced Steve Peters as Sky's medical director at the end of 2012, a lot of these evolutions occurred after Farrell's appointment.

Surely French law will be aligned to EU law, as indicated by the EU website?

And fair enough, maybe he didn't have his prescription pad on him (if indeed he needed it), but why not just say that in their evidence instead of going on about prescription rights?

As ever, there's a sea of words and claims, but no details to actually test it. I hope that Mr Collins et al. get to broaden their scope and pick over this stuff with a very fine tooth comb.

It varies country to country I know in certain countries they will only honour a prescription that is less than two weeks old.

Doctor on Twitter respectfully disagress Matt.

Conor McGrane‏ @ConorTMcGrane 3 hours ago

@SkyOrla @velocast Some spoofing going on re availability to only French doc, all EU doctor prescriptions are valid http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/health/help-from-the-pharmacy/prescription/index_en.htm …

Sky made a big deal over supposedly doing things right and attention to detail. The lies that they have sat down and released time and time again is laughable. Glad the f***ers are only running a sports team!!!!

So many lies, hope the dropbox has space for them!!!

 

[Benotti69]

Interesting to note how some posters went missing for a while when the Sky jiffy bag reached a peak, now back posting as soon as statement released, interns finished writing the report now obfuscate on forums and comments sections??????

 

[Ironhead Slim]

Re:

Interesting to note how some posters went missing for a while when the Sky jiffy bag reached a peak, now back posting as soon as statement released, interns finished writing the report now obfuscate on forums and comments sections??????

Especially the comments section after a CN article. Relentless. Almost an art form.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Interesting to note how some posters went missing for a while when the Sky jiffy bag reached a peak, now back posting as soon as statement released, interns finished writing the report now obfuscate on forums and comments sections??????

Especially the comments section after a CN article. Relentless. Almost an art form.

It's all the trolls that have been run out of the forum too, they're back in the comments section...

 

[Benotti69]

My guess is Sky is doing this to algorithms or similar. Someone out there will be counting negative social media compared to positive and they may even be thinking the negative publicity at this stage is all good!!!!

Will they be able to control the media at races? Probably have private press briefings for those onside and very short official ones where they answer 2 or 3 prepared questions from pre selected reporters.

It still wont prevent the inevitable.

 

[Electress]

Re:

Kenacort 4 Everyone‏ @vayerism 2 minutes ago
'
This is brutal. Social media has buried the most recent sky statement in 2 hours.

I think my favourite may be:

"So, Freeman uses British cycling's money to buy drugs, he later uses on private patients If you believe that, you've a cotton candy head." :razz:

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Interesting to note how some posters went missing for a while when the Sky jiffy bag reached a peak, now back posting as soon as statement released, interns finished writing the report now obfuscate on forums and comments sections??????

Especially the comments section after a CN article. Relentless. Almost an art form.

It's all the trolls that have been run out of the forum too, they're back in the comments section...

Dan were they the ol' chaps reporting my posts?

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Interesting to note how some posters went missing for a while when the Sky jiffy bag reached a peak, now back posting as soon as statement released, interns finished writing the report now obfuscate on forums and comments sections??????

Especially the comments section after a CN article. Relentless. Almost an art form.

It's all the trolls that have been run out of the forum too, they're back in the comments section...

Dan were they the ol' chaps reporting my posts?

No, the people reporting your posts are all (semi )normal forum members. There was no glut of Sky defenders reporting your posts. Not only that, but forum staff read comments too and don't need a report to act on them.

 

[Benotti69]

So for 4 years we are supposed to believe Sky when they tell us Dr Freeman could not drag files across a screen into a drop box. A man who is intelligent enough to have studied medicine and worked in the premier league!!! Well why not print the records to have a paper file that could be scanned at a later date.

Edit: They trusted a guy who could not work the dropbox system to bring his TeamSky laptop on holiday and connect the internet in a foreign country!!!! :lol:

More lies. Funny stuff.

I really hope Freeman is lawyering up.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.

you reckon Wiggins wont leak like a sieve against him. 2013 Ventoux? A rider using a motor. He better hope Wigans has no suspicion Froome used it in Wigans 2012 year.

Well yes, if Wiggins goes out Landis style - and starts speaking about epo etc - then the whole Sky well and truly falls in and we get another four asterixed TDF's.....with Nibali of **Astana** standing firm as the one clean win of the era - there would be a certain perverse beauty in that I suppose. Vino for clean cycling.

But I forsee a political impulse to save good old Wiggo - he is after all a sir, a national hero and super popular. But they need a famous head to cut off, and jettison away - the poisoned source, after which, the brand can re-emerge in a new form.

That head has to be Brailsford. Just like Hird at EFC. There needs to be a head on stake; and we will all feel sorry for him when he ends up where he ends up.

then someone will get Nibali for using a motor at the Giro last year. I dont think merely 800ml refill of packed cells in the rest day can describe his turnaround.***

***this is the reason the sport has lost legitimacy, he may not have used a motor, but the sport is so bereft in trust and truth, we immediately think #conspiracy as default.

So, can you really blame Greg and Andreu for believing a motor story spun to them? I don't think they are lying, I think they are dead wrong, but I don't think they are lying. They are just factually incorrect, I think they have a deepseated view that what they are saying is correct. It aint, but they are entitled to the opinion. I dont think it stands the test of scrutiny.

so what about my Nibali theory? Well, I already put the caveat out there, I am convinced in nothing. Nothing would surptise me. Well... if he did not have a rest day refill, now that WOULD indeed surprise me.

I suppose I'm very naive: I just looked at Nibbles and his resurrection and thought 'nice, well timed, well executed blood re-up - chapeau for old school methods.'

But that's all innuendo. The only hard evidence we have is that he changed his crank lengths. 5mms make all the difference.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.

Its weird how easily people romanticize scumbags and idiots.

Same happened with lance. Plenty of people who knew he doped held him up as this intelligent machiavelian genius. He was none of the sort. Nor is Froome. Take a brief look through either of their stories they were just stupid bullies who got lucky.

The guy has never taken a long term perspective at anything.

I ain't romanticizing ~ few make it into that category. But even so, what you say applies to Pantani as well, and I still count him as holy.

And Froome ain't no Lance: that's precisely the point I'm making when I say he has a touch of the Indurains about him.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.

Its weird how easily people romanticize scumbags and idiots.

Same happened with lance. Plenty of people who knew he doped held him up as this intelligent machiavelian genius. He was none of the sort. Nor is Froome. Take a brief look through either of their stories they were just stupid bullies who got lucky.

The guy has never taken a long term perspective at anything.

Hitch, I never liked Lance. so I was never part of the apologia on his behaviour. But paradoxically, I have come around to him. I now have a kind of understanding...

Likewise ~ I had to stop watching the tdf during his reign, such was my dislike.

But the collective moral need to make him an evil supervillain forces me to recognise that he is existing on a kind of scar of injustice; he plays it well from that position.

And that LA is maybe the most transparent mirror we've had for the sport.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.

Back in the day, Bernard Hinault turned to the Renault bosses - the big bosses, the car-maker bosses - and gave them an ultimatum: Cyrille Guimard or him, one of them had to go. Renault, they made their choice and Hinault went.

Compare that to what Froome is doing: briefing hacks behind the scenes.

And why? Because he's a petulant little **** and still carries a grudge over 2012 and the promises made and broken. Chapeau? No.

I readily concede that he ain't a patron of Hinualt's calibre. Again, the analogy is with Indurain.

 

[Benotti69]

Pity no one is mentioning Doctor Geert Leinders in all this, apart from Kimmage to Stokes in cyclingtips.

He seems to have been the guy who kickstarted Sky's success in 2011, where's his laptop with his medical files of Wiggins and others?????

 

[bewildered]

The fluimucil story is a complete fabrication to get Brailsford out of a sticky situation in front of MPs. Doesn't appear they thought it through though and are still writing it. The Doctor confirming he doesn't have prescription rights in France despite an EU Regulation that says he does is the latest unbelievable aspect of this story.

Normally Brailsford lies through his teeth (like in the Henao study and Froome VO2 max test promises) until the questions go away but now he' s dealing with MPs and journos who know a lot more than they have written, not fans with typewriters who are afraid of having their access removed. They are like a dog with a bone and this one will not blow over like the last few empty promises. With his normal tactic of lying through his teeth he is digging himself further into a hole and the journos are just waiting for him to snooker himself completely.

 

[Dan2016]

Re:

The fluimucil story is a complete fabrication to get Brailsford out of a sticky situation in front of MPs. Doesn't appear they thought it through though and are still writing it. The Doctor confirming he doesn't have prescription rights in France despite an EU Regulation that says he does is the latest unbelievable aspect of this story.

Normally Brailsford lies through his teeth (like in the Henao study and Froome VO2 max test promises) until the questions go away but now he' s dealing with MPs and journos who know a lot more than they have written, not fans with typewriters who are afraid of having their access removed. They are like a dog with a bone and this one will not blow over like the last few empty promises. With his normal tactic of lying through his teeth he is digging himself further into a hole and the journos are just waiting for him to snooker himself completely.

Nicely put.

I hope to god you're right.

I have a horrible feeling he is going to get away with it.