Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Benotti69]

Re:

I think there may be a way Wiggo could rat out Sky and still get away not totally destroyed. He's just waiting to see what happens further now.

Well athletes are responsible for what they take. So any thought of blaming TeamDocs or Brailsford for it wont wash. He is a big boy now even though he acts like a spoilt child.

He would be much better off out of the media and getting on with his speaking talks and running his team and keeping the gob of his shut. But Dame Wiggie likes the sound bites of his own voice in the media which he claims to despise!!!

 

[Beech Mtn]

Re:

I think there may be a way Wiggo could rat out Sky and still get away not totally destroyed. He's just waiting to see what happens further now.

Maybe if he somehow makes his story more about Sky (private entity) using too much of the resources and staff of BC (publicly funded). He could possibly avoid the doping issue and talk about the women and paralympians being shortchanged, because so much money and time was going into BC people building special wheels for Sky, coaching Sky, running camps, etc when they were supposed to be on BC's dime.

Aren't the people that have been forced out because of the ZTP (Yates), or are being currently tossed under the bus (Freeman), more from the Wiggo camp within Sky?

 

[samhocking]

My hunch is he's going to publish all the supporting medical records from the 3+ years when prescribed the combined cocktail of Salbutomol, Formotorol, Budesonide, Flixotide, Ventolin, Crarityn, Avamys & Opticrom at maximal dosage leading up to his first TUE to replace them instead for his allergy. I'm hoping he will include all the RAST test findings and nasal endoscopy reports too for independent review perhaps? I can't think there's anything else you could relate to saying he will 'shock a few people', directly after saying 'a man of my integrity'. Obviously it's a hunch, but that's the only thing I could think that relates to supporting integrity at this late stage. Not sure spilling a load of beans on BC & Sky would support him thinking he has integrity could it after saying what he's already told UKAD during the investigation a few weeks ago that would just open him up as a hypocrite?

 

[AICA ribonucleotide]

Interestingly Richard Moore give a hint of what Wiggins is going to say on the Cycling podcast today https://soundcloud.com/the-cycling-podcast/cobbled-classics-and-catalonia#t=7:45 7 minutes and 45 seconds in it starts.


"- ..Sounds like you have some inside information there Richard?

- Well em lets just say if you can connect this story to Richard Freeman's submission to the CMS committee, em a lot of people have been pouring over that. One point he does make there is, he stresses the importance of the coach - athlete - doctor relationship and that no medical decisions happen without all those three parties knowing about it. Interestingly when Shane Sutton was in the front the CMS committee a while ago, em he was Bradley Wiggins coach remember in 2011 and 2012, he claimed not to have any knowledge of Wiggins' treatment at the time so Richard Freeman's testimony there contradicts what Shane Sutton said in front of the CMS committee and I'd suggest that that's worth em keeping in your minds as we move forward..."


This looks to me like Wiggins, who will defend his TUEs as valid until the end, will go after the likes of Sutton who covered up his TUEs. Wiggins' 'shocking' views will be about Sky's PR *** which "led them to cover up stuff that didn't need covering up". He'll blame them for making him look guilty.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Sky

lol - You forgot to add Friebes final end comment:
Friebe: "It's worth raising a conspiratorial eyebrow"
Moore: "It's certainly worth that - it's always worth that" (chuckling)

 

[Benotti69]

Wiggins has to be careful that JV denies Wiggins having allergies or asthma at Garmin

 

[Robert5091]

I'm still waiting for an explaination about the attempted TUE for Wiggins at the Tour of Britain 2013. He still won the GC ,,,

 

[veganrob]

Re: Re:

I think there may be a way Wiggo could rat out Sky and still get away not totally destroyed. He's just waiting to see what happens further now.

Maybe if he somehow makes his story more about Sky (private entity) using too much of the resources and staff of BC (publicly funded). He could possibly avoid the doping issue and talk about the women and paralympians being shortchanged, because so much money and time was going into BC people building special wheels for Sky, coaching Sky, running camps, etc when they were supposed to be on BC's dime.

Aren't the people that have been forced out because of the ZTP (Yates), or are being currently tossed under the bus (Freeman), more from the Wiggo camp within Sky?

That's one way. Wiggo will not go down alone and he doesn't want to go down with Sky either. He will have to try to make Sky look even worse than he is and that way is to implicate them all.

 

[Robert5091]

"This looks to me like Wiggins, who will defend his TUEs as valid until the end, will go after the likes of Sutton who covered up his TUEs. Wiggins' 'shocking' views will be about Sky's PR ****** which "led them to cover up stuff that didn't need covering up". He'll blame them for making him look guilty."
Yep something like,
"I was a sweet, innocent, fragile young man with allergies, who just wanted to ride his bicycle, your honour".

 

[samhocking]

Even if Wiggins can't prove it was Fluamicil, in my opinion he has all the evidence required so he can at least quash all the claims of using Triamcinolne before, during or on day of Dauphine win on the bus and that allegation a Triamcinolone injection was in the package. So long as the RAST & Endoscopy medical reports supporting the first TUE application are not fabricated and can be validated, it seems a pretty simple case of releasing it once UKAD give him the all clear to speak about the investigation.

The TUE applied for was Triamcinolone 40mg to treat Rhinitis (Pollen Allergy in Wiggins case according to the first RAST report). The 2nd Endoscopy performed on 2nd July 'after' the Triamcinolone TUE injection shows significant improvement to his Rhinitis symptoms. As expected, the 1st Endoscopy performed within the 2 weeks after his Dauphine win, sometime between 12th June and 29th June shows severe Rhinitis despite maximal topical treatment using (Salbutomol), Formotorol, Budesonide, Flixotide, Ventolin, Crarityn, Avamys & Opticrom for > 3 years previously and the justification to switch his treatment to Triamcinolone TUE instead of the above maximum cocktail for each Grand Tour. Therefore, if Wiggins was injecting Triamcinolone 40mg (as stored in BC Manchester according to UKAD findings) before, during or on the day of Dauphine win, why didn't that Triamcinolone's beneficial effect for Rhinitis show in the 2nd Endoscopy performed between the Dauphine win and before the first TUE application?? Not only that, but the Endoscopy on 2nd July a few days 'after' injecting the TUE for 40mg of Triamcinolone shows 'significant improvement' which proves Triamcinolone under the TUE had the desired effect, but any claim to being injected with Triamcinilone before or at Dauphine simply can't have happened, the Endoscopy confirms it didn't.

 

[yaco]

Re: Sky

lol - You forgot to add Friebes final end comment:
Friebe: "It's worth raising a conspiratorial eyebrow"
Moore: "It's certainly worth that - it's always worth that" (chuckling)

You forgot about Friebe going around in circles for 15 minutes discussing Valverde - A strange performance.

 

[samhocking]

Haha, yes it was a bit.
Going back to their Sutton comments, I think they're on the wrong road thinking in terms of Wiggins shocking anyone due to the relationship with Freeman & Sutton, Freeman is discussing. They seem to be getting a bit mixed up between the package and the TUE. Sutton in the CMSC when asked by Collins was denying knowing anything about Triamcinolone being discussed as the treatment Wiggins received on the bus. He then goes onto confirm Wiggins long-term ahstma and he accepted the doctors attended to that treatment as Wiggins needed it and Freeman said he was sorted to Sutton.
Collins then asks about the TUE and Sutton goes onto to deny knowing the exact product in the TUE being discussed, but knew it was a Corticosteroid being given.

 

[Dan2016]

Re:

Even if Wiggins can't prove it was Fluamicil, in my opinion he has all the evidence required so he can at least quash all the claims of using Triamcinolne before, during or on day of Dauphine win on the bus and that allegation a Triamcinolone injection was in the package. So long as the RAST & Endoscopy medical reports supporting the first TUE application are not fabricated and can be validated, it seems a pretty simple case of releasing it once UKAD give him the all clear to speak about the investigation.

The TUE applied for was Triamcinolone 40mg to treat Rhinitis (Pollen Allergy in Wiggins case according to the first RAST report). The 2nd Endoscopy performed on 2nd July 'after' the Triamcinolone TUE injection shows significant improvement to his Rhinitis symptoms. As expected, the 1st Endoscopy performed within the 2 weeks after his Dauphine win, sometime between 12th June and 29th June shows severe Rhinitis despite maximal topical treatment using (Salbutomol), Formotorol, Budesonide, Flixotide, Ventolin, Crarityn, Avamys & Opticrom for > 3 years previously and the justification to switch his treatment to Triamcinolone TUE instead of the above maximum cocktail for each Grand Tour. Therefore, if Wiggins was injecting Triamcinolone 40mg (as stored in BC Manchester according to UKAD findings) before, during or on the day of Dauphine win, why didn't that Triamcinolone's beneficial effect for Rhinitis show in the 1st Endoscopy performed between the Dauphine win and before the first TUE application?? Not only that, but the Endoscopy on 2nd July a few days 'after' injecting the TUE for 40mg of Triamcinolone shows 'significant improvement' which proves Triamcinolone under the TUE had the desired effect, but any claim to being injected with Triamcinilone before or at Dauphine simply can't have happened, the Endoscopy confirms it didn't.

(I think you meant ''1st'' where I've edited in bold above?)

Where does the info on this 1st endoscopy in June 2011 come from?

 

[samhocking]

Re: Sky

Yes, sorry, I mean the first. You have to also look at the 2012 & 2013 TUE comments to piece it together. i.e. 1st Endoscopy would show Rhitis improvement had Wiggins injected Triamcinolone before during or after the Dauphine finished before that RAST & Endoscopy but it doesn't suggesting nothing was injected. The second Endoscopy after the TUE injection shows Rhitis improvement which is what they wanted by using Triamcinolone. 3rd Endoscopy for Giro shows return of Rhitis (last years Tour de France injection wearing off) so they apply for Giro TUE same logic as for Tour. All other times/races Wiggins seems to be coping sub-optimally using (Salbutomol), Formotorol, Budesonide, Flixotide, Ventolin, Crarityn, Avamys & Opticrom for >3 years leading upto 2011 TUE. i.e. 2009 Tour de France result.

It's all in the comments of the 2011 TUE

RAST test Jun 2011 allergy to grass pollen. ENT specialist performed endoscopy nasal airway 2/7/11 confirmed diagnosis allergic rhinitis

So Wiggins finished Daphine 12th June. RAST test sometime in June, so assume after the training camp ends and he's back in UK by end of June. RAST confirms grass pollen allergy and the the follow up Endoscopy on his nose confirms (Salbutomol), Formotorol, Budesonide, Flixotide, Ventolin, Crarityn, Avamys & Opticrom > 3 years treatment isn't working and Rhinits evident. Zorzoli seems to receive confirmation of the Endoscopy report on 2nd July and adds that comment as 2/7/11 Endoscopy confirmed or this is an additional Endoscopy he has requested perhaps due to Wiggins just about to start Tour. Unfortunately the little space for comments means punctuation gets removed to fit and things truncated or simply removed as this is done via ADAMS electronically. The other documents with the TUE will be on ADAMS though with the application so Wiggins just needs to ask for these.

So the timeline is Dauphine Finish > Training Camp > RAST & Endoscopy > TUE Application > Endoscopy Results confirm > TUE Granted (before 2/7/11 but I assume because there's no time to wait) > Tour de France

The way I understand the tests are the RAST is blood test by the pathologist to identify the allergen. In this case Annual March to June Grass Pollen
Endoscopy confirms extent of Nasal polyps. More = treatment not working, Less = Treatment working.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Sky

Yes, sorry, I mean the first. You have to also look at the 2012 & 2013 TUE comments to piece it together. i.e. 1st Endoscopy would show Rhitis improvement had Wiggins injected Triamcinolone before during or after the Dauphine finished before that RAST & Endoscopy but it doesn't suggesting nothing was injected. The second Endoscopy after the TUE injection shows Rhitis improvement which is what they wanted by using Triamcinolone. 3rd Endoscopy for Giro shows return of Rhitis (last years Tour de France injection wearing off) so they apply for Giro TUE same logic as for Tour. All other times/races Wiggins seems to be coping sub-optimally using (Salbutomol), Formotorol, Budesonide, Flixotide, Ventolin, Crarityn, Avamys & Opticrom for >3 years leading upto 2011 TUE. i.e. 2009 Tour de France result.

It's all in the comments of the 2011 TUE

RAST test Jun 2011 allergy to grass pollen. ENT specialist performed endoscopy nasal airway 2/7/11 confirmed diagnosis allergic rhinitis

So Wiggins finished Daphine 12th June. RAST test sometime in June, so assume after the training camp ends and he's back in UK by end of June. RAST confirms grass pollen allergy and the the follow up Endoscopy on his nose confirms (Salbutomol), Formotorol, Budesonide, Flixotide, Ventolin, Crarityn, Avamys & Opticrom > 3 years treatment isn't working and Rhinits evident. Zorzoli seems to receive confirmation of the Endoscopy report on 2nd July and adds that comment as 2/7/11 Endoscopy confirmed or this is an additional Endoscopy he has requested perhaps due to Wiggins just about to start Tour. Unfortunately the little space for comments means punctuation gets removed to fit and things truncated or simply removed as this is done via ADAMS electronically. The other documents with the TUE will be on ADAMS though with the application so Wiggins just needs to ask for these.

So the timeline is Dauphine Finish > Training Camp > RAST & Endoscopy > TUE Application > Endoscopy Results confirm > TUE Granted (before 2/7/11 but I assume because there's no time to wait) > Tour de France

The way I understand the tests are the RAST is blood test by the pathologist to identify the allergen. In this case Annual March to June Grass Pollen
Endoscopy confirms extent of Nasal polyps. More = treatment not working, Less = Treatment working.

Sam, I'm struggling to make sense of your last two posts to be honest, but it appears you might be mixed up (or I am). There has never been any suggestion that a 2nd endoscopy was done on 2nd July 2011. That was the date of the 1st stage of the Tour. There was only one, single endoscopy done in 2011, on 28th June, in Bolton UK. There is also no suggestion anywhere in the TUE's that any endoscopy showed symptom improvement. The timeline is in the link below, with Wigans showing his relevant medical records to the Guardian (we can't see them). As he has already shown the Guardian his relevant medicals around the TUE's it seems unlikely there is anything new to come on that front. The TUE's are a mess, clerical errors is the kindest explanation, hence the 2/7/11 reference.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/30/bradley-wiggins-full-story-asthma-allergies-tues

Regardless, none of this necessarily has anything to say about the magical little jiffy bag. It could have been Kenalog in a small dosage for all we know, or another cortico or any number of other doping products. We've no idea what effect any of this would have on the endoscopy on 28th June. It's just guesswork. It's also hard to see any way in which he can prove the jiffy bag wasn't Kenalog, and certainly not along the endoscopy lines you're suggesting.

The TUE's are suspicious but kinda old news now anyway aren't they? The real story since has been in the evasiveness and Monty Pythonesque farce around the little mysterious bag of wonders. The behaviour at every stage by everyone involved has been that of people desperate to hide something significant. Some people, maybe most, see guilt in this. Other people will only see guilt with a positive drugs test.

I'm doubtful Wigans'... ''I is gonna shock y'all y'all''... comment means much really. He said it in front of a dozen drunk football fans making zoo noises. Possibly just pub-talk swagger, wannabe geezer. Or maybe it's a ''shot across the bows'' as someone else said.

 

[Benotti69]

If Wiggins truly has asthma and pollen allergies there would be evidence of this going back a long time. Callum Skinner produced it.

Wiggins doped by lying about asthma and allergies. Plus i have no doubt he was blood bagging and all the other stuff that gets taken.

 

[Dan2016]

Re:

If Wiggins truly has asthma and pollen allergies there would be evidence of this going back a long time. Callum Skinner produced it.

Wiggins doped by lying about asthma and allergies. Plus i have no doubt he was blood bagging and all the other stuff that gets taken.

Yeah, if he does have medical records for long term allergies it makes little sense for him not to have shown them in the same way Skinner did, given how much his rep has been trashed. Reasons of confidentiality or privacy would be hard to credit.

And as you say, anything could have been going on.

The endoscopy defense offered above doesn't make sense to me, either factually or logically.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

If Wiggins truly has asthma and pollen allergies there would be evidence of this going back a long time. Callum Skinner produced it.

Wiggins doped by lying about asthma and allergies. Plus i have no doubt he was blood bagging and all the other stuff that gets taken.

OK, let me strip it back to raw dates and basics.

Lifelong treatment on maximal therapy using flixotide inhaler, ventolin, clarityn, avamys nasal spray & opticrom (there is a supporting TUE letter for this statement from his GP/NHS/Garmin Doctor we assume)

2008 TUE granted for Salbutomol with a comment for additional Corticosteroid in a letter attached to also use Fluticosone 250nmg 1-2 times a day. (TUE covers 2009).

2009 TUEs granted were Salbutomol again same as 2008, but Formotorol & Budesonide seem to have now replaced Fluticosone used in 2008. Formotorol & Budesonide are more powerful however and both banned Corticosteroids until 2013 so why a TUE was needed with supporting letter. Wiggins was 4th in 2009 Tour de France, so these TUEs including one for a Corticosteroid was with support/supporting evidence from Garmin's doctor at the time Dr Steffen I assume.

2010 Joined Sky - No TUEs we know about, so managing using flixotide inhaler, ventolin, clarityn, avamys nasal spray & opticrom > 3 years as we already know.

2011/12/13 TUE for Triamcinolone. Formotorol & Budesonide still banned so Triamcinolone seems to have replaced these. ENT confirms even on maximal amount Formotorol & Budesonide is innefective according to endoscopy (assume either from previous TUE or Wiggins using Formotorol & Budesonide out of competition)

The comment on the 2012 TUE confirms life long allergy. ENT confirms >3 years on maximal therapy flixotide, ventolin, clarityn, avamys nasal spray & opticrom eye drops. Note Formotorol & Budesonide not listed as not used in 2010, only within TUEs in 2009

So, it would appear Wiggins was using the Corticosteroids - Fluticosone in 2008, then was switched to more powerful Formotorol & Budesonide under TUE for 2009, went without anything other than over the counter treatment in 2010 and then saw specialist in 2011 who advises Triamcinolone to replace innefective Formotorol & Budesonide (probably why it wasn't used in 2010. could have had side-effects, depression etc etc perhaps?) . Various bloods taken for RAST and various Endoscopy results measuring Nasal polyps. These will be with each TUE to justify treatment (or not). All Wiggins has to do is bring Hargreaves into this and see how he plays this. If he's falsified RAST blood tests and endoscopy examinations, he's in way bigger trouble that Freeman simply loosing his laptop lol. For Wiggins, the 02/07/2011 Endoscopy documents WILL confirm he couldn't have take been injected at Dauphine because it shows Nasal polyps. Sometime after that Wiggins would have had the injection after Zorzoli receives the Endoscopy report.

This is what Nasal Polyps would look like in the Endoscopy report. i.e. this is what Wiggins was diagnosed with suffering from by the ENT and not being reduced using maximum therapy treatments.

 

[thehog]

Re:

I'm still waiting for an explaination about the attempted TUE for Wiggins at the Tour of Britain 2013. He still won the GC ,,,

He did, it was a huuuuuggggge win for Wiggins, underlying his natural Grand Tour talent. He won the massive 16km time trial then watched Cav take 3 stages in the fourth Grand Tour of the year whilst retaining the coverted leaders jersey. It was Wiggins greatest win of all time

 

[Ramon Koran]

Re: Re:

I'm still waiting for an explaination about the attempted TUE for Wiggins at the Tour of Britain 2013. He still won the GC ,,,

He did, it was a huuuuuggggge win for Wiggins, underlying his natural Grand Tour talent. He won the massive 16km time trial then watched Cav take 3 stages in the fourth Grand Tour of the year whilst retaining the coverted leaders jersey. It was Wiggins greatest win of all time

He was up there with Quintana on the stage the mountain top finish that Simon Yates won despite not having any tues, if that's not proof having the talent to win the tour than I really don't know what is.

 

[Robert5091]

Re: Sky

Steady on there - we're talking the Tour of Britain here ...
If Freeman thought SBW was so sick he needed a TUE, why did Farrell stop him and how come he still won? Stuffed full of "something" else maybe or not so "sick". Smells fishy either way.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Sky

Steady on there - we're talking the Tour of Britain here ...
If Freeman thought SBW was so sick he needed a TUE, why did Farrell stop him and how come he still won? Stuffed full of "something" else maybe or not so "sick". Smells fishy either way.

Maybe he took the stuff anyway. They probably threw his urines away at tests. It is UKAD the people who dont police doping in the UK unless it is PR fluff.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I'm still waiting for an explaination about the attempted TUE for Wiggins at the Tour of Britain 2013. He still won the GC ,,,

He did, it was a huuuuuggggge win for Wiggins, underlying his natural Grand Tour talent. He won the massive 16km time trial then watched Cav take 3 stages in the fourth Grand Tour of the year whilst retaining the coverted leaders jersey. It was Wiggins greatest win of all time

He was up there with Quintana on the stage the mountain top finish that Simon Yates won despite not having any tues, if that's not proof having the talent to win the tour than I really don't know what is.

You're absolutely right, I have no idea what I was thinking. A 137km stage with a 5.8km Climb at 400m in height :lol:

The first-category climb of Haytor is the only summit finish in this year’s race (also its first in 10 editions) and represents the last real chance for the GC favourites to gain time.

At 5.8 kilometres long and 400 metres high, it is hardly comparable to iconic climbs such as Alpe d’Huez and the Galibier, but given the way the peloton fragmented into several groups the last time the climb featured in the race two years ago, an explosive and exciting finish should be on the cards.

 

[thehog]

Re: Sky

Steady on there - we're talking the Tour of Britain here ...
If Freeman thought SBW was so sick he needed a TUE, why did Farrell stop him and how come he still won? Stuffed full of "something" else maybe or not so "sick". Smells fishy either way.

Maybe he took the stuff anyway. They probably threw his urines away at tests. It is UKAD the people who dont police doping in the UK unless it is PR fluff.

JTL wasn't tested for EPO in his 2012 win so we know UKAD give their riders a pass at the home Tour

 

[Beech Mtn]

On the subject of Wiggins and nasal polyps (from post on previous page), did BW ever have surgery for those? I know other cyclists and pro athletes have had that in the off-season, and lots of just regular joes who get it done. Would think surgery would be done for lots of athletes with the issue.