Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dan2016]

Re:

well sky never really came to the front until the second to last climb, they had it very easy up until that point, but feel free to tell everyone a 6 minute effort = doping

That's a fair point to a degree I think. It is difficult to conclude anything from an isolated example. In fairness though, it seems, as Hitch pointed out above, that you will have a similar rebuttal for any scenario, any mountain climbing speed etc. So it seems to me that you are arguing from a different burden of proof principle than most people here, so the argument becomes futile. I suspect most people here, myself included, convict Sky on a common sense or, in legal terms, a 'balance of probabilities' principle, and you would only convict Sky on a 'beyond reasonable doubt' principle. Would that be fair?

Beyond reasonable doubt is a logically justifiable position of course, maybe you receive derision for it because some posters would like to force you into a defense based on balance of probabilities and your rebuttals do of course seem very weak in that false context (false for you I mean). So, can I ask, rather than indulge circular arguments, what would it take for you to stop believing that Sky riders are clean? It's not a loaded question, it's a genuine one.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

5:55. Third fastest climbing time on Poggio today, we're back to pre-EPO test speeds.

Sky train looking like a Sunday club ride at times while Dumoulin was spilling his guts!!!

Unbelievable.

context please? how was the race up to the climb, was the average speed up or down on the previous years? a 6 minute climb proves nothing about doping.

the only Unbelievable thing here is you are copying digger

Rick, you ok with Sky sacking a rider who was 'suspected' but not diagnosed as having a mental disorder?

Why did Sky not diagnose and prescribe? What was it Brailsford said? "whiter than white".

As for MSR. Since when are races done at Sunday club run pace? Since when is a monument of 290+Km of racing, yes that is racing for 290kms and then the only team with nearly a full compliment at the head of affairs and you want to argue the time? Puhleeease. Some of us are watching pro bike racing since the 80s.

As for the personal jibe re Digger. Plenty are are saying the exact same as Digger, plenty, he just says it more often.

Personal attacks detract from ones argument not add to it. Important bot information.

who did sky sack for having a mental disorder?

using a strava timer up a 6 minute climb to claim doping is almost amateur stuff, this place could do so much better work yet the hatred of all things sky makes some blind

I did not say he was sacked for having a mental disorder. Obfuscation or try reading?

Attacking the clinic while ignoring that Dumoulin couldn't get away from Sky.

Hatred of doping is not a bad thing in my book. <edited by mods>

#botfail

 

[Benotti69]

Dr Freeman was accused by Sky of not having the technical ability to use a drop box. Not sure how many believed that a man who could train to be a doctor could not drag files into a box on a screen.

But he also trained other doctors. Not a bad ability, yet cant drag files on a screen into a box.

Doc Freeman's CV

http://www.drrichardfreeman.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CV2015.pdf

The doc claims at Bolton he was "Use ultra-sound scanning for diagnosis and inspection guidance."

Freeman is also availble in app form 'Doc in a box'.

Hardly a technophobe?

More Sky lies.

More Skyfail.

 

[Netserk]

Re:

well sky never really came to the front until the second to last climb, they had it very easy up until that point, but feel free to tell everyone a 6 minute effort = doping

Aye, and it's impossible to tell if Bolt is doping from a <10'' effort!

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

5:55. Third fastest climbing time on Poggio today, we're back to pre-EPO test speeds.

Sky train looking like a Sunday club ride at times while Dumoulin was spilling his guts!!!

Unbelievable.

context please? how was the race up to the climb, was the average speed up or down on the previous years? a 6 minute climb proves nothing about doping.

the only Unbelievable thing here is you are copying digger

Rick, you ok with Sky sacking a rider who was 'suspected' but not diagnosed as having a mental disorder?

Why did Sky not diagnose and prescribe? What was it Brailsford said? "whiter than white".

As for MSR. Since when are races done at Sunday club run pace? Since when is a monument of 290+Km of racing, yes that is racing for 290kms and then the only team with nearly a full compliment at the head of affairs and you want to argue the time? Puhleeease. Some of us are watching pro bike racing since the 80s.

As for the personal jibe re Digger. Plenty are are saying the exact same as Digger, plenty, he just says it more often.

Personal attacks detract from ones argument not add to it. Important bot information.

who did sky sack for having a mental disorder?

using a strava timer up a 6 minute climb to claim doping is almost amateur stuff, this place could do so much better work yet the hatred of all things sky makes some blind

I did not say he was sacked for having a mental disorder. Obfuscation or try reading?

Attacking the clinic while ignoring that Dumoulin couldn't get away from Sky.

Hatred of doping is not a bad thing in my book. Obviously bots just follow their input.

#botfail

I'm not attacking the clinic, I just think you lot could do better than taking a single 6 minute climb to claim some are doping.

<edited by mods>

and again context with Dumoulin, he was ripping it up on the previous climb and then done some work on the flat between the climbs so he was on the limit before that final climb...

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

well sky never really came to the front until the second to last climb, they had it very easy up until that point, but feel free to tell everyone a 6 minute effort = doping

Aye, and it's impossible to tell if Bolt is doping from a <10'' effort!

LOL

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I'm not attacking the clinic, I just think you lot could do better than taking a single 6 minute climb to claim some are doping.

<edited by mods>

and again context with Dumoulin, he was ripping it up on the previous climb and then done some work on the flat between the climbs so he was on the limit before that final climb...

As you well know as you have been on here long enough, that it is one of many, many, many examples.

They are all doping bar 1 or 2 neopros. Sky just have Cookson and Reedie on their team!

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

5:55. Third fastest climbing time on Poggio today, we're back to pre-EPO test speeds.

Sky train looking like a Sunday club ride at times while Dumoulin was spilling his guts!!!

Unbelievable.

context please? how was the race up to the climb, was the average speed up or down on the previous years? a 6 minute climb proves nothing about doping.

the only Unbelievable thing here is you are copying digger

Context is from my understanding theyve been doing the poggio for 60 years almost including the entirety of the EPO era.

If benotti or digger was comparing 2017 poggio to one other version of the same climb you can use these variables.

If they do it every year however the variables get lost in the sample. What, are you really trying to argue that people with 60% hematocrit in the 90's and 2000's were going slower than 2017 because the race was superhard every single year for an entire generation, then this year, the 1 time a Sky rider wins it, just happens to be the one year they go super slow and easy?

To be fair, that argument might even work once or twice.

But the funny thing is, we hear from you that every time Sky do well. Every time G beats EPO times its cos there is a tailwind. And everytime Froome does it its a tailwind. Or the race was easy. Everytime Wiggins does it its because he "prepared", or he had an easy course. Everytime a Sky rider wins anything, its always also the 1 time that particular climb or tt or mountian was easier than all the other times in history it was climbed. And never with any evidence to back it up either.


That is nonesence.

No surprise to see the dumbest least thought through arguments always coming from the same side.

News Limited don't pay people to be smart

 

[blackcat]

yes this thread readers please pay attention to The Hitch. /poor grammar

When I use the name of a single rider, what is lost on a significant proportion of the members on The Clinic, I am using this "name" as a cypher, both as code and as null set. The name is not important. I use the person as the rider for the exposition of my point and analogy.

like Benotti says, or intimates, I have indicted the 180 man peloton, so yes, a clean rider could be having a day out, and super legs. But he will not be off the front with 179 other doped riders.

The clean rider, will be able to show himself/herself, in a peloton, if there were 175 clean riders moving down the road to San Remo. He wont be able to touch a doped peloton going at speed however, he will just be hiding in the wings, out of the wind, nose trying not to touch the wind.

I doubt a clean rider can be with the leaders on the cipressa, let alone the poggio. It does not work out that way.

And, I have made the declaration and qualifier before, this is in no way a value judgement, and I am not impugning their character, because I do not see performance enhancing drugs in cycling, as in issue of character. They just do what they have to do.

however, i do reserve the right to satirise and parody the individual riders. Because they open themselves up to it, with the manifest lies.

and an asterisk, that is the paradox of the compulsory lie. They have to lie, otherwise they cant ride. If they dont say they dont take the dope, they never get a contract and ride at the next race. So, in that sense, I have empathy for SDB, LRP, other acronyms, dawg, other anthropomorpisms, or inverted anthropomorphisms, cound, BKA, others...

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

well sky never really came to the front until the second to last climb, they had it very easy up until that point, but feel free to tell everyone a 6 minute effort = doping

PDBF, Ventoux, Ax 3, PDB etc were 30-60 minute efforts.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

Only the most reckless dopers get caught directly by it and even in those case it's not foolproof, see Kreuziger, Roman.

What are you talking about? He never exceeded any value in BP. How is he one of the most reckless dopers?

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/39371822
Welsh cyclist Owain Doull says it is "outrageous" current Team Sky riders have been drawn into the controversy over a "mystery package" delivered to ex-rider Sir Bradley Wiggins.
"It doesn't really affect us at all, especially me, as someone's only joined the team this year. It's stuff that happened five years ago.

"For me and a lot of the guys it has no real impact at all. Everyone's cracking on as normal."

Absolutely splendid old bean - keep on cracking on! SDB might be hiding in the bus, but he says your doing a jolly top rate spiffing job - what what!

 

[King Boonen]

The same Owain Doull who joined the BC academy programme in 2012? Yeah, doesn't involve him at all...

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/39371822
Welsh cyclist Owain Doull says it is "outrageous" current Team Sky riders have been drawn into the controversy over a "mystery package" delivered to ex-rider Sir Bradley Wiggins.
"It doesn't really affect us at all, especially me, as someone's only joined the team this year. It's stuff that happened five years ago.

"For me and a lot of the guys it has no real impact at all. Everyone's cracking on as normal."

Absolutely splendid old bean - keep on cracking on! SDB might be hiding in the bus, but he says your doing a jolly top rate spiffing job - what what!

like a shop assistant in a Ratner's store circa 1992 blithley wondering what all the fuss was about....

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Only the most reckless dopers get caught directly by it and even in those case it's not foolproof, see Kreuziger, Roman.

What are you talking about? He never exceeded any value in BP. How is he one of the most reckless dopers?

"Exceeded any value in BP"? Methinks you don't understand how the BP works.

 

[tukabel]

finally? endgame time?

Badly Wigans opening doors to go full Landis?

"Eventually I will get my say and there is a lot to say. It's going to shock a few people."

also:

'Marginal gains was a load of rubbish' says former Team Sky leader

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bradley-wiggins-what-i-have-to-say-will-shock-a-few-people/

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

finally? endgame time?

Badly Wigans opening doors to go full Landis?

"Eventually I will get my say and there is a lot to say. It's going to shock a few people."

also:

'Marginal gains was a load of rubbish' says former Team Sky leader

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bradley-wiggins-what-i-have-to-say-will-shock-a-few-people/

If Wiggins goes full Landis he can kiss his media career goodbye and his so called motivational speaker talks will be over.

I very much doubt Wiggins is that stupid, he aint the sharpest but he aint the bluntest.

Wiggins appears to like the 'good life' and that costs money.

No i think he is pulling people's legs or maybe he is warning Brailsford, but if he throws people under the bus he will be part of the crash!

 

[veganrob]

Or maybe Wiggins knows the ship is going down and he is going to make sure everybody goes with him. We can only hope.

 

[ferryman]

Re: Re:

finally? endgame time?

Badly Wigans opening doors to go full Landis?

"Eventually I will get my say and there is a lot to say. It's going to shock a few people."

also:

'Marginal gains was a load of rubbish' says former Team Sky leader

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bradley-wiggins-what-i-have-to-say-will-shock-a-few-people/

If Wiggins goes full Landis he can kiss his media career goodbye and his so called motivational speaker talks will be over.

I very much doubt Wiggins is that stupid, he aint the sharpest but he aint the bluntest.

Wiggins appears to like the 'good life' and that costs money.

No i think he is pulling people's legs or maybe he is warning Brailsford, but if he throws people under the bus he will be part of the crash!

The above quotes were preceded by these:

"It's the worst thing to be accused of as a man of my integrity given what I believe and what I've done to get to where I am today.

"But fortunately there is an investigation underway and I can't say too much, but that will run its course."

He's not going to blow himself or Sky out of the water. At worst, he may be shocking some of the English tabloid readers, with a wee revelation or two of what goes on, who thing English cycling is as white as snow.

 

[Sorped]

I think he means he's going to shock those of us who aren't skybots by admitting nothing.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Froome, Millar and others he does not like are fair game. Also he will narrate probably his own episodes with asthma and how much it cost him and how Kenacort or equivalent drugs helped him to unlock his potential. All the while keeping his butt safe.

 

[The Hegelian]

If I was writing this as a play, this would be the bit when he has a bad **accident** and everyone knows it was to shut him up. Or drinks a poisoned coffee North Korea style.....

But, given that it's Alastair Campbell writing the script, I think we can all expect a bit of PR genius which makes us, the skeptics, look like mad conspiracy theorists. That dude knows how to weave a narrative, and this is part of its being woven.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

finally? endgame time?

Badly Wigans opening doors to go full Landis?

"Eventually I will get my say and there is a lot to say. It's going to shock a few people."

also:

'Marginal gains was a load of rubbish' says former Team Sky leader

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bradley-wiggins-what-i-have-to-say-will-shock-a-few-people/

If Wiggins goes full Landis he can kiss his media career goodbye and his so called motivational speaker talks will be over.

I very much doubt Wiggins is that stupid, he aint the sharpest but he aint the bluntest.

Wiggins appears to like the 'good life' and that costs money.

No i think he is pulling people's legs or maybe he is warning Brailsford, but if he throws people under the bus he will be part of the crash!

grey mail.

it is the warning shot across the bows. 'pay me some respect, dont dare hang me out to dry'.

or graymail i picked the mauve cos susan's forum code never had a grey colour, go figga, or figure...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graymail

 

[blackcat]

Re:

If I was writing this as a play, this would be the bit when he has a bad **accident** and everyone knows it was to shut him up. Or drinks a poisoned coffee North Korea style.....

But, given that it's Alastair Campbell writing the script, I think we can all expect a bit of PR genius which makes us, the skeptics, look like mad conspiracy theorists. That dude knows how to weave a narrative, and this is part of its being woven.

did you know proust plays footy for an australian team, the West Coast Eagles. I think i will write this play, Marcel playing australian rules football.

#Chekhov's_gun. I am sure Chekov is the wrong spelling, and I had two attemps

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Froome, Millar and others he does not like are fair game. Also he will narrate probably his own episodes with asthma and how much it cost him and how Kenacort or equivalent drugs helped him to unlock his potential. All the while keeping his butt safe.

i think the title of the play should be,
cound, kath, and kenacourt- a modern king's cycling tale.

#alliterationz