Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Glorious]

How is it possible that Pogacar is performing ten times worse here than, for example, in the Tour... mechanical doping. He looks 100 times more tired than after a tough Tour stage or a Monument. Ridiculous.

 

[burning]

How is it possible that Pogacar is performing ten times worse here than, for example, in the Tour... mechanical doping. He looks 100 times more tired than after a tough Tour stage or a Monument. Ridiculous.

So he was using a motor 3 days ago and now he doesnt? Is it because of Swiss people being experts of motor detection?

The man rode LBL at an insane pace 3 days ago and still rinses the other guys in a sprint, and the climbing speed looks very good on a first glance, he is perfectly fine

 

[Ulle97]

Well, probably EPO, blood transfusions and testosterone for starters, there's still quite a bit of wiggle room to get away with it. On top of that? Synthetic hemoglobin or other novel blood manipulations techniques (like siRNA targeting EGLN/PHD), HGH/IGF-1,... i could go on and on.

Don't forget the motors!!

 

[Samu Cuenca]

In Switzerland you have to pay for a calendar year to use a motor vehicle on motorways, so obviously UAE didn't want to do that when he's only going to be there for less than two weeks this season.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

On these long efforts, Pogačar‘s engine, like the new F1 cars, engages super-clipping to recover power. He was just running the MGU-K in reverse. Let‘s hope the current F1 rule tweaks help the others catch up.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

In Switzerland you have to pay for a calendar year to use a motor vehicle on motorways, so obviously UAE didn't want to do that when he's only going to be there for less than two weeks this season.

So wheelbarrow from Shimano today?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

So wheelbarrow from Shimano today?

Yeah, but today it didn't cost him the win like it did in Roubaix. It's a good bike for sprinting apparently. Uijtdebroeks should take note.

 

[jotafap]

How is it possible that Pogacar is performing ten times worse here than, for example, in the Tour... mechanical doping. He looks 100 times more tired than after a tough Tour stage or a Monument. Ridiculous.

I thought this was self-explanatory… I guess not...

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

I don't know much about the Kreuziger case - is there a link to the details such as the blood values & most importantly the Off-scores? I'm assuming his Off-scores didn't meet the 99.99% specificity level that warrants a ban (I believe the threshold is it has to be less than 1 in 10,000 chance of being undoped).

On Horner, his Off-scores didn't come close enough for the 99.99% specificity level (that's probably why he self-published his blood values. Lol).

On Cobo, about a year ago or so I posted a link on the PDF of his CAS hearing that gave all the details of the case including his blood values & Off-scores. The anti-doping experts that handled his case explain why the long delay. The Off-scores from the around of the time of & during the Vuelta were high enough for a sanction. The details of the delay is long & complicated (if you've got the time & some good tea/coffee to drink, it's an interesting read).

And are you saying the CIR test for testosterone is not routinely used? I would think the top riders from the GC, classics & especially the sprinters would be subjected to routine CIR testing? That's how they busted Justin Gatlin - a U.S. world-class 100m/200m T&F sprinter & Olympic medalist. WADA didn't wait for any suspicious T/E ratios - they hit him head on with CIR testing. And his excuse was that his masseur must have used Androgel during his rub downs. LOL

And what do think about the Sample Retention and Further Analysis (SFA) which allows samples to be stored for up to 10 years for future testing? (subject to retesting as new technology becomes available). It's already been used in retesting samples years later from past Olympic events where they've nailed numerous athletes with positive findings. Here's an interesting study on SFA's effect as a deterrent in doping:

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If Pogacar is biologically doping, I'm sure this would have to rest heavily on his mind?

The kreuziger case was a weird one, tinkoff suspended him after an UCI inquiry on his blood values, he explained himself by saying that the cause was his thyroid medication (the fact that you don't even need a TUE to use thyroid hormone is a problem into itself imho), he was then cleared by the Czech olympic committee. WADA and the UCI then appealed to CAS in late 2014 only to drop it and let him skate by june 2015

If you've got a link about the Cobo case i would be interested yes, thank you.

Afaik the isotope ratio test isn't routinely used no, it's quite expensive (near à thousand € apiece), not every lab has the necessary equipment, there have been problem at the labs with it in the past (for instance the south african wada accredited lab was prohibited from using it during six months from september 2023).
Gatlin was a prime target for it because the other athletes coached by trevor graham we're popping positives like there was no tomorrow. Also Gatlin didn't blame his masseur, Graham did.

Operation Aderlass - examples of riders who were not caught by the passport:

Stefan Denifl - confessed to blood doping. No passport violation throughout his career.

Georg Preidler - admitted blood doping. No passport violation throughout his career.

Danilo Hondo - admitted to blood doping in (at least) 2011. No passport violation throughout his career.

Alessandro Petacchi - two-year ban. No passport violation throughout his career.

Kristijan Koren - two-year ban. No passport violation throughout his career.

Kristijan Đurasek - four-year ban. No passport violation throughout his career.

Borut Božič - two-year ban. No passport violation throughout his career.

Pirmin Lang - admitted blood doping. No passport violation throughout his career.

Björn Thurau - long ban. No passport violation throughout his career.


Conclusion - blood doping is still relevant. Even 'lesser' riders can use transfusions without getting caught.

Thank you, i was going to post more or less the same thing but you beat me to it.

Don't forget the motors!!

Meh i don't know, i've seen some things that raised my eyebrows, but looks can be deceiving, as far as motors go i'm an agnostic.

 

[Red Rick]

How is it possible that Pogacar is performing ten times worse here than, for example, in the Tour... mechanical doping. He looks 100 times more tired than after a tough Tour stage or a Monument. Ridiculous.

I'm not gonna say motors, but I've always thought that whatever it is they were on is short acting, and taking the day before or the morning of.

I've based it on the miraculous turnarounds and sometimes crazy results in stages where riders probably didn't expect to need to maximize their dose.

 

[how yes no?]

I'm not gonna say motors, but I've always thought that whatever it is they were on is short acting, and taking the day before or the morning of.

I've based it on the miraculous turnarounds and sometimes crazy results in stages where riders probably didn't expect to need to maximize their dose.

Do you think he is using more or less the same thing since joining UAE?
How do we explain the jumps from 2022 - 23, then to 24 and 25 (and 26?)?
Derivates/advancements of basicly same approach/substance?
If it's short acting, how can it help with recovery presumably needed to be in top shape year round? (or is this a magic stuff that makes you in top form regardless or training and other physiology stuff?)

 

[onefortheroad]

Glycogen burning produces heavy, acidic lactate that causes a rider to grimace and pant. By changing the muscle metabolism to burning fat (e.g. using an unknown, undetected AICAR-like substance) or using advanced bicarbonate solutions that can be processed by the body (without stomach issues), you would effectively stop suffering.

Interesting points, but even if you could theoretically switch to fat burning via AICAR, the oxygen demand for fat oxidation at high W/kg wouldn't be astronomical? Wouldn't he need to be breathing like a train just to get enough O2 into the system? Instead, he looks like he is out for a recovery ride. Bicarbonate solutions can buffer the "sting" but can they really hide the massive core temperature spike that comes with a super effort? Chemical doping makes you a faster "heater," but it doesn't make you look cool.

 

[BubbaChuck]

This is not how pog is doing it. He has to be crazy good at lactate shuttle,stroke volume and efficiency. Is it all natural,probably not.but epo or other chemical doping would make him look opposite of calm and cool.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Thats why people accuse him of moto doping,but usually for moto doping you spin a lower cadence on massive gears.

 

[peterfin]

Interesting points, but even if you could theoretically switch to fat burning via AICAR, the oxygen demand for fat oxidation at high W/kg wouldn't be astronomical? Wouldn't he need to be breathing like a train just to get enough O2 into the system? Instead, he looks like he is out for a recovery ride. Bicarbonate solutions can buffer the "sting" but can they really hide the massive core temperature spike that comes with a super effort? Chemical doping makes you a faster "heater," but it doesn't make you look cool.

Those are excellent questions. You actually forced me to dig deeper, and I had to check some sources and consult an AI to get the exact physiological mechanisms straight. Your counter-arguments are firmly rooted in classical human biology and thermodynamics, which is why a single "magic bullet" drug wouldn't work. But when you look at how these mechanisms could work in synergy, it starts to make sense.

Here is what I found regarding your two points:

You are absolutely right that fat oxidation requires roughly 10% more oxygen per unit of ATP than carbohydrate oxidation. But the reason we pant and hyperventilate during extreme efforts isn't actually because we lack oxygen—it is because we need to expel CO2.
The respiratory center in the brain is triggered by a drop in blood pH (acidity) and a buildup of CO2. When a normal rider hits 600W, they burn massive amounts of glycogen, producing lactic acid. The body attempts to buffer this acid, producing excess CO2 in the process. The brain panics at the rising acidity and triggers hyperventilation to "blow off" the CO2 and stabilize the pH.
If a rider uses a metabolic modulator that prevents lactic acid buildup, or a next-gen bicarb that buffers the acid perfectly within the muscle before it drops the blood pH, the brain's "panic breathing" reflex is never triggered. To meet the higher oxygen demand of burning fat at 7+ W/kg, this would have to be paired with an oxygen-delivery booster (like Carbon Monoxide rebreathing or HIF stabilizers). If the blood simply carries more oxygen per heartbeat, the rider doesn't need to breathe like a freight train. They look relaxed because their blood isn't turning acidic.

Regarding the thermodynamic problem: you are again spot on. Human mechanical efficiency on a bike is about 20% to 25%. This means to put 600W into the pedals, the body must produce roughly 1800W to 2400W of metabolic heat.
The body cools itself by pumping blood away from the core and into the skin to sweat and radiate heat. For a normal rider, this is a harsh trade-off: pumping blood to the skin steals oxygen-rich blood away from the working leg muscles, causing a drop in power.
However, if a rider has an artificially boosted hemoglobin mass or advanced oxygen-carrying capacity, they have a massive physiological surplus. They can afford to divert large amounts of blood to the skin for maximum cooling *without* starving their legs of oxygen. They essentially become an incredibly efficient, high-speed radiator. Combine that with modern cooling strategies (core temp pills, ice slushies, pre-cooling) and the fact that a lack of central fatigue prevents the neurological "grimace" response, and you get a rider processing superhuman heat without the visible meltdown.

 

[onefortheroad]

Those are excellent questions. You actually forced me to dig deeper, and I had to check some sources and consult an AI to get the exact physiological mechanisms straight. Your counter-arguments are firmly rooted in classical human biology and thermodynamics, which is why a single "magic bullet" drug wouldn't work. But when you look at how these mechanisms could work in synergy, it starts to make sense.

Here is what I found regarding your two points:

You are absolutely right that fat oxidation requires roughly 10% more oxygen per unit of ATP than carbohydrate oxidation. But the reason we pant and hyperventilate during extreme efforts isn't actually because we lack oxygen—it is because we need to expel CO2.
The respiratory center in the brain is triggered by a drop in blood pH (acidity) and a buildup of CO2. When a normal rider hits 600W, they burn massive amounts of glycogen, producing lactic acid. The body attempts to buffer this acid, producing excess CO2 in the process. The brain panics at the rising acidity and triggers hyperventilation to "blow off" the CO2 and stabilize the pH.
If a rider uses a metabolic modulator that prevents lactic acid buildup, or a next-gen bicarb that buffers the acid perfectly within the muscle before it drops the blood pH, the brain's "panic breathing" reflex is never triggered. To meet the higher oxygen demand of burning fat at 7+ W/kg, this would have to be paired with an oxygen-delivery booster (like Carbon Monoxide rebreathing or HIF stabilizers). If the blood simply carries more oxygen per heartbeat, the rider doesn't need to breathe like a freight train. They look relaxed because their blood isn't turning acidic.

Regarding the thermodynamic problem: you are again spot on. Human mechanical efficiency on a bike is about 20% to 25%. This means to put 600W into the pedals, the body must produce roughly 1800W to 2400W of metabolic heat.
The body cools itself by pumping blood away from the core and into the skin to sweat and radiate heat. For a normal rider, this is a harsh trade-off: pumping blood to the skin steals oxygen-rich blood away from the working leg muscles, causing a drop in power.
However, if a rider has an artificially boosted hemoglobin mass or advanced oxygen-carrying capacity, they have a massive physiological surplus. They can afford to divert large amounts of blood to the skin for maximum cooling *without* starving their legs of oxygen. They essentially become an incredibly efficient, high-speed radiator. Combine that with modern cooling strategies (core temp pills, ice slushies, pre-cooling) and the fact that a lack of central fatigue prevents the neurological "grimace" response, and you get a rider processing superhuman heat without the visible meltdown.

Thanks for taking the time to go deeper into this, appreciated.

If we assume an exceptional talent, combined with optimal training, recovery, nutrition and a perfectly optimized (and aggressive) chemical support program, it does seem that many classical “red flag” stress signals could be strongly muted. Lower acid load, better pH control, and improved oxygen delivery could, at least in theory, suppress the usual breathing panic and visible distress even at very high W/kg.

At the same time, sustained fat oxidation at those intensities is intrinsically oxygen expensive, so even with increased O₂ delivery per heartbeat, are physiological limits truly being removed, or just shifted to a different bottleneck?
And on heat management, if enhanced oxygen transport allows more blood flow to the skin without immediate power loss, is that a stable solution or a very narrow and fragile balance, especially late in long stages, on irregular terrain rather than controlled conditions?

I keep wondering whether even an extremely optimized human system would truly hide all downstream signs of strain. Metabolic, central, and neuromuscular fatigue don’t always break down in sync and biology has a habit of leaking through subtle cues as small cadence irregularities, uneven torque, or micro adjustments in posture when conditions stop being perfectly steady.

 

[BubbaChuck]

No,thats why he is greatest talent ever or x men.its gotta be on cellular level.

 

[Lorzenz08]

I'm not gonna say motors, but I've always thought that whatever it is they were on is short acting, and taking the day before or the morning of.

I've based it on the miraculous turnarounds and sometimes crazy results in stages where riders probably didn't expect to need to maximize their dose.

If you were training for Roubaix for months, and were in Roubaix shape 2.5 weeks ago, there is absolutely nothing that will make you climb ~7watts/kg for >20minutes.

We're not talking about a 3 min effort.