Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Galic Ho]

Re:

Nobody is denying that Sky are doping, but I'm still not so sure that anything particularly out of the ordinary happened here. Clearly Porte took it very easy, and he is grouped with all of the other GC riders, except for Chaves who is a little further behind (as you would expect). Contador's performance - like Porte - was also rather disappointing, though after Valverde's crash (and his own multiple crashes in recent years), it isn't surprising that he has finished this ITT in the middle of the pack. And ignoring the Dauphne, Contador has always been well behind Froome in flat ITT's in recent years. And why shouldn't Froome have a jump up in form from the Dauphne? And it's not like his form was horrible in that week. Compare to Nibali in 2014; Froome was much closer to the form required to compete for yellow in July then Nibali was then; it is really not that big of a jump in form. Perhaps the non 'normal' performance (at least over the last six years....) was Froome's ITT at the Dauphne. If you take something like the flat ITT at last years Vuelta, then his performance yesterday in relation to ALL of Contador, Aru, Quintana....it is not a surprise at ALL.

As for Thomas; the guy has always been strong against the clock. And for those saying that this is extra suspicious because he is coming back from injury at Giro....maybe it is like Contador in 2014, returning from injury at the Tour to win the Vuelta? He held his form and perhaps even comes in a little fresher because of his enforced layoff. And Thomas has had GREAT form this season. Have people forgotten the Tour Of The Alps? And he looked strong in the Giro before having to abandon.

How good was he on Blockhaus in the Giro?

If it were Pinot doing this, you'd be saying it was wrong. But Pinot, had impeccable form at the Giro.

Thomas had a decent LONGER time trial and his climbing after 2 weeks, has never been proven. Ever. Not against the front GC boys.

He was okay at the Giro. But wasn't ever going to beat Landa. So...yeah, exaggerate a bit more.

Contador has won 9 GT's. Or is it 10?

Who cares...Contador is a proven performer. Nobody in the clinic will defend him. Not even his biggest fan.

Useless argument to put forward Greg.

Geraint is highly suspicious. Who thought he would be up there? Nobody!

I even said during the stage commentary listening to Matt Keenan and Robbie McEwen that if someone did well in GC (can't remember whom) it would be as likely as GT winning the stage. Well, he won!!

Plus he won comfortably. Definitely strange.

In 2014 at the Dauphine Garmin stole the win because all of Sky decided to attack Alberto Contador.

What occurred? Froome and ALL of Sky, were single handed, demolished by Contador who rode every single one of them off his wheels.

Horrible parallel to use that and Nibali. Nibali clearly had his timing done perfectly and didn't try and win the Dauphine. Froome did in both 2014 and 2017! Worse, he failed both times and exposed his weaknesses.

Of course he could have just dialed it in like Nibali and then shocked them all...some folk like to play mental games and end up showing everyone their cards.

No, Contador played the smart card at the Dauphine. Just dialed it in and came home. He rode the Dauphine like Nibali did in 2014. Not Froome. Froome stuffed up.

 

[Galic Ho]

Re: Re:

Galic Ho
Thomas and Froome, were stronger than they should have been based on their season form (and Giro injury).

Thomas after the Giro crash was second to Tommy D in the ITT.

Yeah. I know.

Yet Landa, who had the more serious injury, lost far more time (5 mins vs 27 mins) after their crash, was the one who was super strong in the final week.

Kirienka was strong as well. Was he riding GC? No.

He had a strong time trial in both outings. Name me one GT in the past where Thomas was impeccable across the board in his time trials? Sure he was better than the rest of the GC boys, but Tom spanked him by just over 50 seconds.

The only way Thomas win doesn't look exceptionally dirty, would have been Rohan Dennis and Tom Dumoulin being there on Saturday to show us how the best in the whole pro tour do it. They weren't.

Dude it's dodgy because the last time a team placed 4 guys in the top 10 in a prologue was 2009.

And they couldn't win the stage!! But they certainly dominated the race. Of course, Astana circa 2009 was clean right? :lol:

Of course the Sky boys could have run the numbers and decided that Thomas wasn't going to get back 5 minutes and likely wouldn't have matched Landa anyway. So stage hunt and save Thomas for the Tour. Which means they lied about the extent of his injury and hence, he could finish quite strongly in a very long time trial.

 

[Galic Ho]

Re: Re:

Its not really out of the ordinary. Its a wet opening time trial, there are so many variables that aren't directly linked to pure power. Lets wait for the mountains, but they do look incredibly strong.

Absolutely the time gaps from Froome to other GC men were significant for a 14km TT. He took 35 seconds on all his main rivals which is crazy in a short TT. Lance in his live stream after said it was a very strong message and Contador said in interview afterwards it was crazy to lose 40 secs in this stage. I expect ASO also thought there would be 10-20 seconds max between GC contenders.

Wait, Lance is a commentator now?

He knows something about Tour ITTs for sure. I believe he's never been worse than 3rd, an absolutely insane stat

Lance once lost 6 minutes to Big Mig.

6 whole minutes.

That was pre cancer though.

1999 to 2005, you might be right.

Lance dropped 40 seconds to Cancellara in the first stage in Monaco in 2009. Was 10th overall. He had 3 team mates go faster than him. Contador lost 18 seconds and came second and eventually beat Cancellara in the final time trial.

A 28 year old Cancellara.

We've seen stuff like that happen today. Tony Martin getting beaten along with Keung; that's odd.

It would have been nice to have Rohan Dennis here to see how fast he was. He was the on form ITT rider the last 2 months other than Dumoulin and Porte.

I'm talking about 1999-2005 of course. Indurain won more time per km over his closest rivals and his the better time triallist, but Armstrong's consistency in the time trials during the period he dominated was incredible. Better that Armstrong lite, Froome.

Go and listen to that link a page back of Armstrong's podcast. It is very intelligent and well reasoned. Great to listen to.

We should be glad Froome didn't ride fast enough to actually catch anyone. When Armstrong caught Ullrich in 2005 it was Tour over for Jan on day 1.

 

[rick james]

Re: Sky

http://inrng.com/2017/07/team-sky-new-skinsuit/

already used by Thomas in May at the Giro and Froome in Dauphiné

what were the "experts" watching then? didnt notice that? they wait for the Tour? are the experts JULY FANS?

cycling weekly had a piece on the suit in May, made with the help of Norwegian University of Science and Technology

 

[zlev11]

so Froome had it at the Dauphine and his TT was still garbage? weird.

 

[miguelindurain111]

Re:

so Froome had it at the Dauphine and his TT was still garbage? weird.

It only works when you gain time on your competitors :lol:

 

[vedrafjord]

Re: Sky

Y'all acting like Kwiat, Thomas, Kiri and Froome have never ridden a TT before.

They certainly have. But all four better than or equal to time trial specialists and other competitors?

Certainly doable, but I just have a strange gut-feeling

Leave Kiryienka and Kwiatkowski out of this - they were excellent TTers/prologuists (and the course was short for a TT - basically a double prologue). Beside, it's only Brits who make huge leaps in performance after they join Sky.

Kiryienka was already a world championship bronze medallist TTer before he joined Sky. He also had two top 10s in Tour TT stages, a Worlds top 10, a Vuelta top 5 and 12th in the Olympics. Since he joined Sky he's come 1st and 2nd in the worlds.

Before Kwiatkowski joined Sky he'd won a Paris-Nice prologue, a Tour de Romandie prologue and a Volta ao Algarve TT. He was 5th in the Mont St. Michel TT stage in 2013. He was also the junior world champion in 2008.

 

[MikeS369]

Re:

Not sure if it's been posted here already, but apparently the Skies were nearly half a minute faster than others because of the dots on their shirts:

http://www.fredericgrappe.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/vortex.pdf

You have to love the fables. Sort of like the "Sky were the first team to warm up on trainers".

 

[sniper]

but they didn't put froome in a windtunnel prior to 2013.
legit.

 

[veganrob]

Re:

again........correction! team sky never stated they were 1st...........but said.........'we warm up/down when many others do not'

it's only here that sky are claimed to have made false assertion

Mark L

well maybe it was all the Sky sycophants that claimed they were first. But i am sure they got that info from Brailsfaud.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
well maybe it was all the Sky sycophants that claimed they were first.

indeed, this from ping pong champ Matthew Syed for instance:

Each weakness was not a threat, but an opportunity to make adaptations, and create marginal gains. Rapidly, they began to accumulate.

He went further. The team started to use antibacterial hand gel to cut down on infections. When he became general manager of Team Sky, he redesigned the team bus to improve comfort and recuperation. They started to probe deeper into untested assumptions, such as the dynamic relationship between the intensity of the warm-down and speed of recovery. As they learned more, they created further marginal gains.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34247629

Please, Matthew, stick to ping pong.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

again........correction! team sky never stated they were 1st...........but said.........'we warm up/down when many others do not'

it's only here that sky are claimed to have made false assertion

Mark L

Ah jeezuz this gets rolled out again. Sky made lots of claims that they were first to introduce in the so called marginal gains and their fans repeat ad nauseum.

Of course it gets taken to task in here. Their fans then complain. Get off the stuck record of every july defending sky.

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

What's out of the ordinary: at the tdf, everyone - from 1 to 9 in every team - is in peak condition. And the Sky peak at the tdf is always the summit. No one can ever get anywhere near them.

If there was no history of unbelievable dominance, no one would bat much of eyelid to see those four crack the top ten.

But there is a history of unbelievable dominance!

So, given that, who could watch that prologue and not think: 'damn, another year of this?' Every year, I let a little bit of excitement build up, and then it is ruthlessly quashed by a ridiculous Sky performance - usually this is at least, not in the first stage. And every year, before half way through, I personally get in the broom wagon and curse myself for even thinking that the tdf might be vaguely plausible and interesting.

I feel quite entitled to *** and moan about this - we love the sport, and the pinnacle has been unwatchable for 5 years.

Exactly my thoughts - just better formulated, than I could have Agree with this, and the disappointed feeling we are left with yet again.
I don't mind doping, but there has to be some sort of level playing field, with some excitement and drama with two, three, four riders on almost equal level (and not from the same team! ) going for the win.
Now, I will probably as you stop watching the Tour very soon in the coming days and look forward to the Vuelta, which is in these days much more interesting and exciting.

What I just don't get is how Sky can nail their collective top form spot on for each Tour. And how this top form can be better than anybody elses (of course based on a very small sample of just one stage, but they did look incredibly strong ).
It is suspicious, that not one of the other top contenders are at least up there with the four Sky riders on this time trial. And that the four Sky riders either beat or recorded similar times as the supposed time trial specialists. They took 37 second on the best contender Simon Yates, and 51 on the worst contender Bardet.
And I don't buy the argument, that other contenders peaked too soon, as has been suggested with Porte for instance.

The only references that comes to mind when looking at Sky and Froome since 2011-2012 are Banesto and US Postal.
Also considering, that I have watched Froome on Ventoux in 2013, which still to this day baffles me, my mind is made up. I can find no other logical explanation for the extreme dominance.

I am dreading the first mountain stage, where I expect Froome, Thomas and Landa to top-3 it while crushing the other contenders. This is how disillusioned I am after 5 years of watching the Tour like this. It is really annoying, because I used to love this race.

But, I will look forward to the Vuelta which is these days much more level and dramatic and exciting. Somehow it is only in the Tour, that Sky can nail their top form? If they can do it in the Tour, they should be able to also do this in other races?

Pretty much me. But not so resigned. Actually angry. Because there's so much looking the other way at all levels of the sport and media. It says something when I cheer for and indeed trust a bunch of Russian hackers like Fancy Bears over riders and sport's institutions from my own country, and wish for literally any rider in the peloton to beat Sky. Indeed, whilst I don't want to see any rider injured, frankly, I'd welcome any non-injury related event that neutralises any Sky rider purely on the basis that their present dominance ruins the Tour, along with the intolerable PR BS gloating from the likes of Brailsfraud, and the commentators love-in, which makes watching a UK feed almost unbearable.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Sky

Y'all acting like Kwiat, Thomas, Kiri and Froome have never ridden a TT before.

Fair enough.

But if thats how you view things, I hope you will be amongst the first to cry foul if Thomas and Froome aren't finishing in the grupetto come the mountains.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

What's out of the ordinary: at the tdf, everyone - from 1 to 9 in every team - is in peak condition. And the Sky peak at the tdf is always the summit. No one can ever get anywhere near them.

Haha. Great point.

Remember how in 2012 "Wiggins only won the TDF and Froome 2nd, because Contador wasn't there and Andy Schleck got injured, and he had an easy route" - They got lucky, things fell into place.

Then in 2013 "Froome only won the Tour de France because Contador and Schleck weren't on form" They got lucky, things fell into place.

And in 2015 "Froome only won the Tour because Contador did the Giro" They got lucky, things fell into place

And in 2016 and now 2017 ummmm

Its like animal farm. 4 legs good 2 legs bad.

Then wait 5 years. And forget everything you ever said.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Just a thought - the skinsuit controversy could be a nice distraction from something more nefarious

4 riders in top-10? Froome 3kph faster than the other GC contenders on the final straight part? Hmm...

 

[sniper]

Re:

Just a thought - the skinsuit controversy could be a nice distraction from something more nefarious

4 riders in top-10? Froome 3kph faster than the other GC contenders on the final straight part? Hmm...

Just a thought? It's a classic, deflection 101.

I just happened to come across this race report of stage 19 of the 2008 Giro which Kiryienka won:

The Belarusian might have been missing his simplified track bike at the base of Presolana. He was forced off his road machine and, for a minute, looked to be out of contention after suffering from a mechanical. However, a quick bike change and hard surge got him back to the front three riders, Nicki Sørensen (Team CSC), Alexander Efimkin (Quick Step) and Steve Cummings (Barloworld).

"I am a used to this," he explained "I throw the bike to the side of the road and I asked for another with a smile. They gave me another bike and I took back the others – I was secure of myself today."

No doubt, Vasili

We might hear more from Kiryienka this Tour.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re:

Just a thought - the skinsuit controversy could be a nice distraction from something more nefarious

4 riders in top-10? Froome 3kph faster than the other GC contenders on the final straight part? Hmm...

So you think Sky themselves created this controversy?
A controversy where L'equipe brands them as cheats and the whole France sees it.
Now, thats a crazy notion. :lol:

 

[spalco]

Re: Re:

So you think Sky themselves created this controversy?
A controversy where L'equipe brands them as cheats and the whole France sees it.
Now, thats a crazy notion. :lol:

Well, surely L’Équipe and the french public already considered them cheaters anyway, so not much loss there. If nothing else it's a successful PR move for Castelli though.

 

[No_Balls]

Re: Re:

Just a thought - the skinsuit controversy could be a nice distraction from something more nefarious

4 riders in top-10? Froome 3kph faster than the other GC contenders on the final straight part? Hmm...

So you think Sky themselves created this controversy?
A controversy where L'equipe brands them as cheats and the whole France sees it.
Now, thats a crazy notion. :lol:

Sky seems unable not to stir up controversy. They are perhaps the worse team ever in the history of cycling to fly under the radar of the governing bodies so they might do this just because they can. I mean:

*Take the least qualified cyclist ever and make him so bad that he is on the brink of getting fired until rediscovering his inner multiple GT-winner self and roll with whatever the pr-machine comes up with as justification.

*Combine him with a track rider and spice it up with a 12 month peak. Couple it with doping doctors despite a "zero doping" policy.

*Add some mysterious packages stories and TUE-controversies.

*Buy the narrative that whatever british track-rider that appears in a SKY-kit is a possible multiple GT-winner in disguise.

*Find out that the DS is yet again a serial liar.

In cycling it just make total sense that the first thing that ever happens this team (while under scrutiny) is drawing yet another accusations of cheating with clothes that are bending the rules. After all, this is what they are doing, and have protection for. This is how they roll.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Just a thought - the skinsuit controversy could be a nice distraction from something more nefarious

4 riders in top-10? Froome 3kph faster than the other GC contenders on the final straight part? Hmm...

So you think Sky themselves created this controversy?

A controversy where L'equipe brands them as cheats and the whole France sees it.
Now, thats a crazy notion. :lol:

You dont think Sky are responsible for their own narrative?

I have not seen the latest Pro cycling team come out with loads of interviews about new team, new ideas, new methods, new policies, which basically says everyone else is doping and we are the squeaky cleanest of the clean oh and we never lie!

Stop drinking the koolaid!!!! :lol:

Sky are cheating, that much is proven. It is USPS all over again, where those in power are protecting the team for as long as is possible. When that no longer becomes possible, they will get thrown under the bus!!!

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

Just a thought - the skinsuit controversy could be a nice distraction from something more nefarious

4 riders in top-10? Froome 3kph faster than the other GC contenders on the final straight part? Hmm...

So you think Sky themselves created this controversy?

A controversy where L'equipe brands them as cheats and the whole France sees it.
Now, thats a crazy notion. :lol:

You dont think Sky are responsible for their own narrative?

I have not seen the latest Pro cycling team come out with loads of interviews about new team, new ideas, new methods, new policies, which basically says everyone else is doping and we are the squeaky cleanest of the clean oh and we never lie!

Stop drinking the koolaid!!!! :lol:

Sky are cheating, that much is proven. It is USPS all over again, where those in power are protecting the team for as long as is possible. When that no longer becomes possible, they will get thrown under the bus!!!

Who isnt?

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

Just a thought - the skinsuit controversy could be a nice distraction from something more nefarious

4 riders in top-10? Froome 3kph faster than the other GC contenders on the final straight part? Hmm...

So you think Sky themselves created this controversy?

A controversy where L'equipe brands them as cheats and the whole France sees it.
Now, thats a crazy notion. :lol:

You dont think Sky are responsible for their own narrative?

I have not seen the latest Pro cycling team come out with loads of interviews about new team, new ideas, new methods, new policies, which basically says everyone else is doping and we are the squeaky cleanest of the clean oh and we never lie!

Stop drinking the koolaid!!!! :lol:

Sky are cheating, that much is proven. It is USPS all over again, where those in power are protecting the team for as long as is possible. When that no longer becomes possible, they will get thrown under the bus!!!

Sure, when they cant do that, they'll go down. Maybe 2-3 riders go down too. Wiggins, Froome, Geraint go down.
And another team will come up with the same narrative. With the same riders. Same DS's. Same soigneurs. Same mechanics. Same sponsors. Same everything.
And then all the hate will poured on that team.

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

Just a thought - the skinsuit controversy could be a nice distraction from something more nefarious

4 riders in top-10? Froome 3kph faster than the other GC contenders on the final straight part? Hmm...

So you think Sky themselves created this controversy?

A controversy where L'equipe brands them as cheats and the whole France sees it.
Now, thats a crazy notion. :lol:

You dont think Sky are responsible for their own narrative?

I have not seen the latest Pro cycling team come out with loads of interviews about new team, new ideas, new methods, new policies, which basically says everyone else is doping and we are the squeaky cleanest of the clean oh and we never lie!

Stop drinking the koolaid!!!! :lol:

Sky are cheating, that much is proven. It is USPS all over again, where those in power are protecting the team for as long as is possible. When that no longer becomes possible, they will get thrown under the bus!!!

isn't everyone?

 

[DanielSong39]

Let's see how much this thread lights up after tomorrow's stage. Sit back and enjoy the fireworks!