Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Re: Sky

samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
So, it was all in his head when Wiggins used to suck at climbing and all it took was some data interpretation to get him to believe in himself? Got it.
 
Re: Sky

Huapango said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
So, it was all in his head when Wiggins used to suck at climbing and all it took was some data interpretation to get him to believe in himself? Got it.
The power was always there. He just had to lose the fat.

Heard that before ..
 
Re: Sky

samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
 
Re: Sky

The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
 
Re: Sky

brownbobby said:
The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
To the bold: For me, sure. But among seasoned pros I think such low hanging fruits hang a bit higher.

If the notion of less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill is an age old truism and attainable on bread and water to boot (this is how I read your contention), then it really isn't a source of a substantial competitive advantage. Unless of course you use extra ingredients to push the envelope. Judging by what riders have said about Sutton and the atmosphere at sky, the extra ingredient has not been love.

Of course, the real riddle is not why stick insects climb well. What needs explaining is how the TTing of Wigans and Froome improved simultaneously with slimming down and shedding muscle.

TLDR: Credit where it is due - Ferrari and copycats with better PR for putting physics into practice with a little help from chemistry.
 
Feb 5, 2018
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Re: Sky

brownbobby said:
The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
with what we now know sky were putting in their riders bodies through the use of TUEs, i think most reasonable persons would conclude that sky did in fact supplement their riders drastic weight loss through fat burning PEDs (froome being the most high profile example in 2017, wiggins before him)
 
Feb 5, 2018
270
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Re: Sky

rick james said:
thehog said:
MartinGT said:
To be honest, he is a track\one day rider. He won junior PR. What rings alarm bells is when he outclimbs Quintana. Thomas Geriant should be top 10 in a classic. That’s about the scope of his talent.
Most of the peloton were doing that
clearly not even remotely true when quintana is healthy and not sick
 
Re: Sky

brownbobby said:
The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
if not ferrari then cecchini...i posted years back an interview with Riis...you could have changed the names and it would have been sky 20 years later...of course Riis did lose the weight...but we know what else he did....those donkeys don't turn into race horses themselves....
 
Re: Sky

53*11 said:
brownbobby said:
The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
with what we now know sky were putting in their riders bodies through the use of TUEs, i think most reasonable persons would conclude that sky did in fact supplement their riders drastic weight loss through fat burning PEDs (froome being the most high profile example in 2017, wiggins before him)
correct as it will presume the weight loss with no corresponding loss in power...enter stage left the PEDs grety area......and explains that "very good question" SDB wouldn't answer about Kennaugh's 5kgs loss in two months between romandie and le tour...

we know they've lost the fat...we can see that in their emaciated frames...it's how they lost the fat that is the issue...
 
Re: Sky

gillan1969 said:
brownbobby said:
The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
if not ferrari then cecchini...i posted years back an interview with Riis...you could have changed the names and it would have been sky 20 years later...of course Riis did lose the weight...but we know what else he did....those donkeys don't turn into race horses themselves....
Thing is the numbers Sky used to select what BC rider to be GC leader showed he wasn't a donkey. People conveniently overlook Wiggins was holding 430-440 watts for an hour anyway doing club TTs. Very few Tour contenders need to hold anything like that. Froomes typical 60min power in Tour de France mountains is usually around 370w. Clearly you don't have to maintain power in Tour for an hour as most climbs and ITT are not that long or done at 60 min threshold anyway. Wiggins can drop 10kg and drop 70w from his 60 min power and still be competitive. Unless you know what is the power loss per kg of bodyweight remioved, it's difficult to simply argue a case of peds filling the gap in watts from weight loss unless you know what the power loss was from an untrained 60min power of 440 watts anyway.
 
Re: Sky

samhocking said:
...since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedroom...People conveniently overlook Wiggins was holding 430-440 watts for an hour anyway doing club TTs....
in the meantime Djaporov, Zabel, RobMc, Cam Meyer and Tom Boonen are coming out of retirement and coke dens as they clearly have what it takes to be a GC contender
 
Re: Sky

samhocking said:
gillan1969 said:
brownbobby said:
The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
if not ferrari then cecchini...i posted years back an interview with Riis...you could have changed the names and it would have been sky 20 years later...of course Riis did lose the weight...but we know what else he did....those donkeys don't turn into race horses themselves....
Thing is the numbers Sky used to select what BC rider to be GC leader showed he wasn't a donkey. People conveniently overlook Wiggins was holding 430-440 watts for an hour anyway doing club TTs. Very few Tour contenders need to hold anything like that. Froomes typical 60min power in Tour de France mountains is usually around 370w. Clearly you don't have to maintain power in Tour for an hour as most climbs and ITT are not that long or done at 60 min threshold anyway. Wiggins can drop 10kg and drop 70w from his 60 min power and still be competitive. Unless you know what is the power loss per kg of bodyweight remioved, it's difficult to simply argue a case of peds filling the gap in watts from weight loss unless you know what the power loss was from an untrained 60min power of 440 watts anyway.
and Boardman failed in this regard because?
 
Feb 5, 2018
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Re: Sky

sittingbison said:
samhocking said:
...since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedroom...People conveniently overlook Wiggins was holding 430-440 watts for an hour anyway doing club TTs....
in the meantime Djaporov, Zabel, RobMc, Cam Meyer and Tom Boonen are coming out of retirement and coke dens as they clearly have what it takes to be a GC contender
:lol: :lol:
 
Sep 15, 2016
230
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Re: Sky

samhocking said:
gillan1969 said:
brownbobby said:
The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
if not ferrari then cecchini...i posted years back an interview with Riis...you could have changed the names and it would have been sky 20 years later...of course Riis did lose the weight...but we know what else he did....those donkeys don't turn into race horses themselves....
Thing is the numbers Sky used to select what BC rider to be GC leader showed he wasn't a donkey. People conveniently overlook Wiggins was holding 430-440 watts for an hour anyway doing club TTs. Very few Tour contenders need to hold anything like that. Froomes typical 60min power in Tour de France mountains is usually around 370w. Clearly you don't have to maintain power in Tour for an hour as most climbs and ITT are not that long or done at 60 min threshold anyway. Wiggins can drop 10kg and drop 70w from his 60 min power and still be competitive. Unless you know what is the power loss per kg of bodyweight remioved, it's difficult to simply argue a case of peds filling the gap in watts from weight loss unless you know what the power loss was from an untrained 60min power of 440 watts anyway.
If Wiggins was putting out that much power before losing weight, why wasn't he winning ITT's?
 
Re: Sky

Sam Hocking wrote
Thing is the numbers Sky used to select what BC rider to be GC leader showed he wasn't a donkey. People conveniently overlook Wiggins was holding 430-440 watts for an hour anyway doing club TTs. Very few Tour contenders need to hold anything like that. Froomes typical 60min power in Tour de France mountains is usually around 370w. Clearly you don't have to maintain power in Tour for an hour as most climbs and ITT are not that long or done at 60 min threshold anyway. Wiggins can drop 10kg and drop 70w from his 60 min power and still be competitive. Unless you know what is the power loss per kg of bodyweight remioved, it's difficult to simply argue a case of peds filling the gap in watts from weight loss unless you know what the power loss was from an untrained 60min power of 440 watts anyway.
Colonel Kidney Beans wrote
If Wiggins was putting out that much power before losing weight, why wasn't he winning ITT's?[/quote]


He was.
 
Sep 15, 2016
230
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Re: Sky

Mayo from Mayo said:
Sam Hocking wrote
Thing is the numbers Sky used to select what BC rider to be GC leader showed he wasn't a donkey. People conveniently overlook Wiggins was holding 430-440 watts for an hour anyway doing club TTs. Very few Tour contenders need to hold anything like that. Froomes typical 60min power in Tour de France mountains is usually around 370w. Clearly you don't have to maintain power in Tour for an hour as most climbs and ITT are not that long or done at 60 min threshold anyway. Wiggins can drop 10kg and drop 70w from his 60 min power and still be competitive. Unless you know what is the power loss per kg of bodyweight remioved, it's difficult to simply argue a case of peds filling the gap in watts from weight loss unless you know what the power loss was from an untrained 60min power of 440 watts anyway.
Colonel Kidney Beans wrote
If Wiggins was putting out that much power before losing weight, why wasn't he winning ITT's?

He was.[/quote]
The like of tour de poitou charentes and the odd prologue perfectly suited to an ex track rider? Come on i could have been clearer but you know what i meant, with 440w during an hour you are a contender to win the WC and long GT TT, not second rate ones.
 
Re: Sky

53*11 said:
rick james said:
thehog said:
MartinGT said:
To be honest, he is a track\one day rider. He won junior PR. What rings alarm bells is when he outclimbs Quintana. Thomas Geriant should be top 10 in a classic. That’s about the scope of his talent.
Most of the peloton were doing that
clearly not even remotely true when quintana is healthy and not sick
Agreed....but it's equally not true to suggest that Thomas outclimbs a fit and healthy Quintana
 
It is amazing that there is still debate as to whether Sky was functionally 'doping' riders by using medications in unethical ways. That part is pretty dang obvious, except to those who are pedantically oblivious. The claims of certain medications being necessary (e.g. something that would keep you from going to the hospital or staying home from work 'cause you're so ill) don't hold true for people performing at the very tippity top of world class.
 
Re: Sky

53*11 said:
rick james said:
thehog said:
MartinGT said:
To be honest, he is a track\one day rider. He won junior PR. What rings alarm bells is when he outclimbs Quintana. Thomas Geriant should be top 10 in a classic. That’s about the scope of his talent.
Most of the peloton were doing that
clearly not even remotely true when quintana is healthy and not sick

True, but when Thomas was out climbing Quintana its because Quintana had an excuse(off form/ill), a fit climbing Quintana and Thomas doesn't get anywhere near him, don't take issues with my post, take issues with the OP, that's the one the didn't state the context
 
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