Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Re:

MartinGT said:
I just can see the Dawg getting off and sky carrying on as per with SDB walking around smug
I can see Froome dragging this out and then perhaps taking his ban after the Tour. He really doesn’t care for the rules.

Also President Lappy is meant to have new motor doping iPad app ready soon so perhaps the Dawg won’t be as potent as he has been on the past :cool:
 
Re: Re:

aphronesis said:
macbindle said:
Short term, for them, yes. For the sport, no.
I posed this question obliquely a few days ago: in what universe would anyone see change coming to the sport? If and when Sky go down, then what? More Astana/Gulf State versions?
* My comments are NOT directed at you ... I'm just cueing of your most relevant question. *

Obliquely ... in question and response ... is the only way to roll on this. The Western Canon ... makes great promises on right, wrong and tiidy Solutions ... but rarely keeps its promises.

What do you mean by 'change', Aphronesis? What does your vision/version of 'right' Professional Cycling look like? What is wrong with it now? After the eye roll ... what's your response?

I could be mis-reading you ... my sincere apologies, if I am ... but what's your point on Astana ... Gulf State Teams? Do they not fit into the 'neat, tidy, traditional" team type that you've come to know, love and hate? Western Canon got room for these evil dudes?

Outside of the Clinic, outside of the cynic-laden social media and scandal-fetished print/video media .... millions upon millios are enjoying professional cycling. Because of it ... they buy bikes, they ride bikes, race bikes ... create millions of cycling tourism dollars.

Maybe pro cycling is doing a 'decent' job of keeping the sport alive while balancing some inherent tricky issues of any institution where money and competition plays a major role.

Maybe we should heed the cautionary by line of the former CEO of The Clinic ... sausage 'n all. Maybe this is good as it gets.

Enjoy the Giro, man!
 
Re:

MartinGT said:
I just can see the Dawg getting off and sky carrying on as per with SDB walking around smug
So glum, MGT. :sad:

Our dear Dawgie may well get only litely sanctioned ... but that doesn't mean that the Clinic has to stop kicking the shyte outa him all summer long, now does it? :)
 
Re: Sky

Bronstein said:
samhocking said:
I don't think anything has changed other than UKAD couldn't link the testosterone to any riders and now GMC have followed on from were UKAD ended. The story was originally Freeman accidentally ordered Testosterone iirc because he couldn't do it online, so would telephone his order through and a similar sounding product got misheard as Testosterone. That story rapidly turned into the testosterone was received in error, rather than ordered in error. Now GMC are saying Freeman did order testosterone, which is in effect what Freeman originally said happened by accident over the phone order.
It all depends on if the testosterone was an ordering error or Freeman really ordered it and the covering letter was to cover his traces as the order was opened by other staff I believe.
Who said that?
samhocking? Any source for this supposed 'story'?
 
Mar 7, 2017
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Re: Sky

Bronstein said:
Bronstein said:
samhocking said:
I don't think anything has changed other than UKAD couldn't link the testosterone to any riders and now GMC have followed on from were UKAD ended. The story was originally Freeman accidentally ordered Testosterone iirc because he couldn't do it online, so would telephone his order through and a similar sounding product got misheard as Testosterone. That story rapidly turned into the testosterone was received in error, rather than ordered in error. Now GMC are saying Freeman did order testosterone, which is in effect what Freeman originally said happened by accident over the phone order.
It all depends on if the testosterone was an ordering error or Freeman really ordered it and the covering letter was to cover his traces as the order was opened by other staff I believe.
Who said that?
samhocking? Any source for this supposed 'story'?
Ahh, the Toblerone cover story

A thing of joy and wonder every time that gets rolled out :lol: :lol:
 
Feb 5, 2018
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Re: Sky

Bronstein said:
Bronstein said:
samhocking said:
I don't think anything has changed other than UKAD couldn't link the testosterone to any riders and now GMC have followed on from were UKAD ended. The story was originally Freeman accidentally ordered Testosterone iirc because he couldn't do it online, so would telephone his order through and a similar sounding product got misheard as Testosterone. That story rapidly turned into the testosterone was received in error, rather than ordered in error. Now GMC are saying Freeman did order testosterone, which is in effect what Freeman originally said happened by accident over the phone order.
It all depends on if the testosterone was an ordering error or Freeman really ordered it and the covering letter was to cover his traces as the order was opened by other staff I believe.
Who said that?
samhocking? Any source for this supposed 'story'?
still no source for this nugget of info sam?
 
Re: Sky

It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
 
Re: Sky

samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
So, it was all in his head when Wiggins used to suck at climbing and all it took was some data interpretation to get him to believe in himself? Got it.
 
Re: Sky

Huapango said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
So, it was all in his head when Wiggins used to suck at climbing and all it took was some data interpretation to get him to believe in himself? Got it.
The power was always there. He just had to lose the fat.

Heard that before ..
 
Re: Sky

samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
 
Re: Sky

The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
 
Re: Sky

brownbobby said:
The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
To the bold: For me, sure. But among seasoned pros I think such low hanging fruits hang a bit higher.

If the notion of less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill is an age old truism and attainable on bread and water to boot (this is how I read your contention), then it really isn't a source of a substantial competitive advantage. Unless of course you use extra ingredients to push the envelope. Judging by what riders have said about Sutton and the atmosphere at sky, the extra ingredient has not been love.

Of course, the real riddle is not why stick insects climb well. What needs explaining is how the TTing of Wigans and Froome improved simultaneously with slimming down and shedding muscle.

TLDR: Credit where it is due - Ferrari and copycats with better PR for putting physics into practice with a little help from chemistry.
 
Feb 5, 2018
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Re: Sky

brownbobby said:
The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
with what we now know sky were putting in their riders bodies through the use of TUEs, i think most reasonable persons would conclude that sky did in fact supplement their riders drastic weight loss through fat burning PEDs (froome being the most high profile example in 2017, wiggins before him)
 
Feb 5, 2018
270
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Re: Sky

rick james said:
thehog said:
MartinGT said:
To be honest, he is a track\one day rider. He won junior PR. What rings alarm bells is when he outclimbs Quintana. Thomas Geriant should be top 10 in a classic. That’s about the scope of his talent.
Most of the peloton were doing that
clearly not even remotely true when quintana is healthy and not sick
 
Re: Sky

brownbobby said:
The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
if not ferrari then cecchini...i posted years back an interview with Riis...you could have changed the names and it would have been sky 20 years later...of course Riis did lose the weight...but we know what else he did....those donkeys don't turn into race horses themselves....
 
Re: Sky

53*11 said:
brownbobby said:
The Hegelian said:
samhocking said:
It's not surprising at all. 50% of the training at BC for Team & Individual pursuit since Chris Boardman simulated it in his bedrooms oxygen chamber with Petr Keen is actually done climbing mountains at altitude believe it or not. The reason Wiggins was chosen for GC leadership over anyone else at BC was his numbers on those climbs mathematically said he had the potential to climb as fast as anyone with the required weight adjustment. This has been commented on multiple times. Thomas is arguably the second best pursuit rider after Wiggins so knowing how much data BC also have on him climbing mountains in Mallorca with Wiggins for Team Pursuit it is logical he would be given GC leadership roles in grand tours. As boring as it is, his numbers will simply show his potential to climb mountains fast like Wiggins despite coming from a track background.
Formulas, mathematics, data and mountains: is it really plausible to invoke this in cycling without any reference to the fact that this template was basically invented by Michele Ferrari, and is the hallmark of an accomplished scientific doping program?
I'm not so sure Ferrari invented the fact that less weight, more sustainable power = going faster uphill....i'd credit physics and gravity with that one.

It's entirely plausible to lose weight and increase power through diet and training alone.

Of course it's possible to lose even more weight and increase power even further with a doping programme...but its not an inextricable link.
with what we now know sky were putting in their riders bodies through the use of TUEs, i think most reasonable persons would conclude that sky did in fact supplement their riders drastic weight loss through fat burning PEDs (froome being the most high profile example in 2017, wiggins before him)
correct as it will presume the weight loss with no corresponding loss in power...enter stage left the PEDs grety area......and explains that "very good question" SDB wouldn't answer about Kennaugh's 5kgs loss in two months between romandie and le tour...

we know they've lost the fat...we can see that in their emaciated frames...it's how they lost the fat that is the issue...
 
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