Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Digger]

Sky's list of Ds's is a horror show...riders who rode with teams that were seriously dirty.
Take Steven de Jongh for example. He rode with TVM, Rabobank and Quick Step.
Bobby Julich...enough said.
Servais Knaven - TVM, Domo Frites, Quick Step.

And that's just three. Leaving out Sean Yates for example. So we have management who had careers heavily steeped in doping. We have a doping doctor. We have current riders who were previously on teams who doped.
We have one rider named as doping.
We have performance gains which have been sudden.
We have guys now performing as well as when we know they were on a doping programme.
We have a three guys in top five of a TT at the end of three weeks, having led and controllled that race for two weeks.
The guy who won has been in form since February, thus doing something Contador didn't even do.
The team has dominated every mountain stage with four and five men there all day.
The team leader lauds the achievements of other dopers in Indurain and Lance...

Question: When exactly is it ok to have suspicions, without being called a c***?

 

[Digger]

We have seen this before. Wiggins is really good at dumping on riders like Ricco, Landis, and Virenque. Meanwhile he praises drug cheats like Armstrong. If Wiggins was really clean then he would be mad as hell about Armstrong because Armstrong made it impossible for people to believe in Wiggins' own performances.

Lsnce actually cost Wiggins a podium spot in 2009...yet amazingly Wiggins seems tranquillo about that one. (And Contador for that matter)

 

[Square-pedaller]

Taking a shot at Virenque in France is just not a smart thing to do - what ever his intent - not smart!

For the énième time, Virenque is not universally loved - or even liked - in France.

 

[D Avoid]

Good job we won this year, everyone's favourite cheat is back next time.

That is a really cute picture of Bradislov, I can imagine the Speech bubble, "don't kiss me she is very jealous"!!

 

[will10]

Lsnce actually cost Wiggins a podium spot in 2009...yet amazingly Wiggins seems tranquillo about that one. (And Contador for that matter)

It's an odd one. When he talks about Albi and how he was robbed of a top 3 on that stage by the Kazach blood brothers, but never mentions missing a Tour podium because of LA and/or Alberto.

That's twice this Tour he's used Virenque as an example in the French media - careful now Bradley, you need to keep Prudhomme onside or he'll take out the ITT so Pinot can win Le Tour.

 

[Blakeslee]

Whenever you have one rider with a huge time gap over the rest of the riders in a time trial like you did with Wiggins today immediately raises suspicions for me. If you look at the times in the top end of the results, the gap between each successive placing is consistently fairly close (15-30 seconds or so). Then there is Wiggins, a full two minutes ahead of everyone else. Just doesn't seem credible for one rider to be that dominant.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Sky's list of Ds's is a horror show...riders who rode with teams that were seriously dirty.
Take Steven de Jongh for example. He rode with TVM, Rabobank and Quick Step.
Bobby Julich...enough said.
Servais Knaven - TVM, Domo Frites, Quick Step.

And that's just three. Leaving out Sean Yates for example. So we have management who had careers heavily steeped in doping. We have a doping doctor. We have current riders who were previously on teams who doped.
We have one rider named as doping.
We have performance gains which have been sudden.
We have guys now performing as well as when we know they were on a doping programme.
We have a three guys in top five of a TT at the end of three weeks, having led and controllled that race for two weeks.
The guy who won has been in form since February, thus doing something Contador didn't even do.
The team has dominated every mountain stage with four and five men there all day.

Team trip to Teneriffe.... You know the altitude there is magical...

 

[thamask]

The way wiggo finished off yesterday basicaly just rubbing all the competitions nose in it, cadel realised the game was over after the 1st time trail

 

[BroDeal]

The way wiggo finished off yesterday basicaly just rubbing all the competitions nose in it, cadel realised the game was over after the 1st time trail

I think there is something to that. People have been criticizing the field as weak, but a lot of the riders must have known the fix was in from the early stages of the race. Why should a rider put himself through all kinds of suffering just to make Sky's win look good?

 

[Krebs cycle]

Whenever you have one rider with a huge time gap over the rest of the riders in a time trial like you did with Wiggins today immediately raises suspicions for me. If you look at the times in the top end of the results, the gap between each successive placing is consistently fairly close (15-30 seconds or so). Then there is Wiggins, a full two minutes ahead of everyone else. Just doesn't seem credible for one rider to be that dominant.

I would agree that this would raise an eyebrow... if it were true..... but it's not..... so it doesn't (raise an eyebrow).

Is it really too hard for people to check race results?

Lets look at the final ITT in a GT in addition to the UCI world TT champs. I will post the time which separates the top 5.

TdF 2012 (53km): 2'25" = 2.7 sec/km
Giro 2012 (28km): 1'01" = 2.2 sec/km
TdF 2011 (43km): 1'30" = 2.1 sec/km
Giro 2011 (26km): 55' = 2.1 sec/km
UCI world champs 2011 (46.4km): 2'13" = 2.9 sec/km
TdF 2010 (52km): 3'00" = 3.5 sec/km
Giro 2010 (15km): 23' = 1.5 sec/km
UCI world champs 2010 (45.6): 2'24" = 3.2 sec/km
UCI world champs 2009 (49km): 3'08" = 3.8 sec/km

So when expressed as sec/km this years TT had a smaller gap between the top 5 places than any other TT containing a world class field of comparable distance for at least the past 3yrs.

That took me a whole 5mins.

 

[Franklin]

I
So when expressed as sec/km this years TT had a smaller gap between the top 5 places than any other TT containing a world class field of comparable distance for at least the past 3yrs.

Three of those riders come from Sky.

Took me less than 5 seconds

 

[Krebs cycle]

Porte is just a joke.
where is he in last year TT?
Just a in a year, he TT into 5th place after massive efforts riding in front of the peloton for nearly two weeks.

I hope these dopers get caught soon.

Hey look, here is another person who can't be bothered to check race results. He was the SAME position as last year.

Richie Porte

2012 TdF final ITT: 5th
2011 UCI ITT world champs: 6th
2011 TdF final ITT: 5th
2011 Giro final ITT: 4th
2010 UCI ITT world champs: 4th

 

[biker jk]

Hey look, here is another person who can't be bothered to check race results. He was the SAME position as last year.

Richie Porte

2012 TdF final ITT: 5th
2011 UCI ITT world champs: 6th
2011 TdF final ITT: 5th
2011 Giro final ITT: 4th
2010 UCI ITT world champs: 4th

If we look at GTs only, which is appropriate given the work he has to do for three weeks before the ITT, Porte did nothing in the mountains at the 2011 TdF and Giro. In contrast, in this year's TdF Porte did a substantial amount of work on the climbs yet pulled out a top 5 ITT. That was the point, the context of the final ITT in terms of the amount of work Porte did before it.

 

[180mmCrank]

I think there is something to that. People have been criticizing the field as weak, but a lot of the riders must have known the fix was in from the early stages of the race. Why should a rider put himself through all kinds of suffering just to make Sky's win look good?

Really? I think that be a tiny bit over stated.

T

 

[Krebs cycle]

Three of those riders come from Sky.

Took me less than 5 seconds

So what? I am merely pointing out that maxiton and blakslee didn't bother to check the facts but instead made wildly incorrect statements.

It is a pattern of behaviour that exists in the clinic when discussing suspicions of doping.

 

[Franklin]

So what? I am merely pointing out that maxiton and blakslee didn't bother to check the facts but instead made wildly incorrect statements.

It is a pattern of behaviour that exists in the clinic when discussing suspicions of doping.

I merely point out that you are focussing on the trees and not on the forest.

It's a pattern of behavior that exists in the clinic when people handwave suspicions.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Here's an idea.... When World's roll around this year it will be interesting to see if Sky's TdF team is still generating extraterrestrial power.

I think that's the next window. The Olympic road race is a done deal. Wiggo leads Cav for the win as the other storybook ending.

 

[Franklin]

Don't underestimate Ibarguren

He had the best single day results for at least two years and had a whole TdF to prep his riders.

 

[BroDeal]

Here's an idea.... When World's roll around this year it will be interesting to see if Sky's TdF team is still generating extraterrestrial power.

I think that's the next window. The Olympic road race is a done deal. Wiggo leads Cav for the win as the other storybook ending.

Next year the other teams may hop back on the dope express. Choo choo choo!

They cannot sit there and look like chumps.

A this very instant Cancellara and Martin are probably preparing for Olympic and Worlds war by sleeping hooked up to big bags of dope laced saline on the slow drip.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Virenque's wins in long mountain breaks were pretty much the same as Voeckler's recent win.

Exactly, whereas Wigan's efforts were much more Lance like. Wait until the team train has obliterated the opposition on the climbs then snatch some time gains and then **** everyone in the ITTs.

 

[Krebs cycle]

If we look at GTs only, which is appropriate given the work he has to do for three weeks before the ITT, Porte did nothing in the mountains at the 2011 TdF and Giro. In contrast, in this year's TdF Porte did a substantial amount of work on the climbs yet pulled out a top 5 ITT. That was the point, the context of the final ITT in terms of the amount of work Porte did before it.

Here we go again with the magic crystal ball stuff.

If you say Porte did substantially more work in this years tour than in any of those other GTs in which he was top 5 or 6 in the final ITT, then PROVE it. Post links to SRM datafiles or stfu. Oh let me guess, you watched the tour on TV so you just "know"? Well you must be in an alternative universe because in the one I am living, Porte is currently in 34th place, 1hr 20min behind the yellow jersey.

In my universe, in the 2010 Giro, Porte was 7th on GC and 11th in the final ITT (18sec behind Evans and Nibali who came 5th and 3rd that year respectively). Ergo, Porte is GC contedner capable of producing high quality ITTs at the end of a hard fought GT.

In my universe, TJVG is currently 1hr and 10min in front of Porte on GC, but Porte was only 9sec faster than TJVG in the ITT. Ergo, Porte is positively dawdling in this years tour compared to the 2010 Giro.


IMO, possible explanations for the performances of Rogers and Porte are the following:

1.they are world class all-rounders capable of top 10 finishes in ITTs and stage races without doping.

2. they are average domestiques on a doping program that turned them into world class all-rounders. Since they (esp Rogers) have had consistently world class results for several years, then they MUST have been doping for many years.

Fair enough if you think that, but it then implies that you don't have much faith in the ability of Australian cycling to produce world class riders. Both Rogers and Porte are amongst the top 5 or 6 road cyclists Australia has produced in the past 10yrs and their domestic and junior records prove this beyond doubt. But the implications of your accusations are that Australia has such little talent depth in cycling that our best up and coming riders have to start doping when they turn pro in order to be successful. How sad. How un-Australian.

 

[the big ring]

Both Rogers and Porte are amongst the top 5 or 6 road cyclists Australia has produced in the past 10yrs and their domestic and junior records prove this beyond doubt.

Porte comes from triathlon - which junior records are you talking about here, given wiki says that triathlon career started at 18?

I remember reading he was doing 30min 10km at the end of oly tris so he has some engine, but didn't think he rode as a junior?

 

[BroDeal]

2. they are average domestiques on a doping program that turned them into world class all-rounders. Since they (esp Rogers) have had consistently world class results for several years, then they MUST have been doping for many years.

Rogers doping for many years? You don't say. Nah, could not have happened.

Fair enough if you think that, but it then implies that you don't have much faith in the ability of Australian cycling to produce world class riders. Both Rogers and Porte are amongst the top 5 or 6 road cyclists Australia has produced in the past 10yrs and their domestic and junior records prove this beyond doubt. But the implications of your accusations are that Australia has such little talent depth in cycling that our best up and coming riders have to start doping when they turn pro in order to be successful. How sad. How un-Australian.

This has to be one of the most asinine arguments you have made. Now questioning Rogers is questioning Australia.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Porte comes from triathlon - which junior records are you talking about here, given wiki says that triathlon career started at 18?

I remember reading he was doing 30min 10km at the end of oly tris so he has some engine, but didn't think he rode as a junior?

SELECTIVE COMPREHENSION MUCH?

their domestic and junior records

According to Porte's wiki entry he started cycling in 2006. 3yrs later he places 3rd at the Australian TT championships 1min behind Rogers. So considering everyone thinks Rogers has been doping since his T-Mobile days, I'd say that shows some considerable talent at an early point in his cycling career.

 

[Cerberus]

Here we go again with the magic crystal ball stuff.

If you say Porte did substantially more work in this years tour than in any of those other GTs in which he was top 5 or 6 in the final ITT, then PROVE it. Post links to SRM datafiles or stfu. Oh let me guess, you watched the tour on TV so you just "know"? Well you must be in an alternative universe because in the one I am living, Porte is currently in 34th place, 1hr 20min behind the yellow jersey.

In my universe, in the 2010 Giro, Porte was 7th on GC and 11th in the final ITT (18sec behind Evans and Nibali who came 5th and 3rd that year respectively). Ergo, Porte is GC contedner capable of producing high quality ITTs at the end of a hard fought GT.

In my universe, TJVG is currently 1hr and 10min in front of Porte on GC, but Porte was only 9sec faster than TJVG in the ITT. Ergo, Porte is positively dawdling in this years tour compared to the 2010 Giro.


IMO, possible explanations for the performances of Rogers and Porte are the following:

1.they are world class all-rounders capable of top 10 finishes in ITTs and stage races without doping.

2. they are average domestiques on a doping program that turned them into world class all-rounders. Since they (esp Rogers) have had consistently world class results for several years, then they MUST have been doping for many years.

3. They're world class all-rounder capable of top 10 finishes in ITTs and stage races with doping.

4. Something in between 2 and 3.