Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[enCYCLOpedia]

"I can't believe we got away with it."

"Me neither."

I think this warrants a separate thread, with a caption competition contest.

 

[hrotha]

Anyone else get p!ssed off at hearing about Sky's marginal gain schtick? They stole it from Slipstream.

Still laughing at Rogers riding at 450 Watts and not bothering to chase anyone because he knew they could not sustain it. Farce.

Yeah, seriously, wouldn't what Rogers said imply they were the only ones who could sustain it? In other words, that they were all fine-tuned to ride at the top of human capabilities?

 

[blackcat]

Anyone else get p!ssed off at hearing about Sky's marginal gain schtick? They stole it from Slipstream.

Still laughing at Rogers riding at 450 Watts and not bothering to chase anyone because he knew they could not sustain it. Farce.

slipstream only had marginal gains Bro

Sky cracked the code, "aggregation of marginal gains".

Braislford WIN Vaughters facepalm

 

[andy1234]

Anyone else get p!ssed off at hearing about Sky's marginal gain schtick? They stole it from Slipstream.

Still laughing at Rogers riding at 450 Watts and not bothering to chase anyone because he knew they could not sustain it. Farce.

No need to feel ****ed, you just don't know what you are talking about.
British cycling. Not Slipstream.

"After the Athens Olympics, I had a conversation with British Cycling's performance director, Dave Brailsford. Over coffee, the concept of "marginal gains" came up. I was charged with looking at everything which wasn't coaching, physical or tactical, to see which areas we could improve. We gave UK Sport the plan, UK Sport gave us funding.

In the run-up to the Beijing Olympics we gained a huge understanding. We didn't just try to make a big improvement in one area; we looked at a thousand things, and how each could be improved by just one per cent. Aggregate all of that and it becomes a meaningful number."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/17635921

 

[stampedingviking]

I shall make this clear : ONE CANNOT PERFORM TO THE DEGREE THAT BRADLEY WIGGINS DID TODAY AFTER THREE WEEKS OF RACING IN THE TOUR DE FRANCE WITHOUT PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS

That is not a biased opinion. It is a fact.

If it's a fact, PROVE IT!

 

[DirtyWorks]

I love cycling and I want to believe in cyclists performance until I see INCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE to the contrary.

Another 'evidence' request. What would cross your threshold of incontrovertible evidence? This is a serious question.

Given the history of getting no sensible reply to concrete examples of 'evidence', I assume I'll be adding another name to the ignore list.

 

[stampedingviking]

Good job we won this year, everyone's favourite cheat is back next time.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...Using those data the speed has gone significantly down. These estimates shows significant drops in power in recent years compared to for example the Armstrong years.
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/07/tour-in-mountains-analysis-discussion.html

This needs to end.

The deniers hang on this notion for all it's worth using it as a lever in their claim there is no doping at sky.. Except no one who is claiming Sky's win was bought with a doping program is comparing USPS power output to 2012 output. Sky's aggregate power output *relative* to the rest of the 2012 peloton is extraterrestrial.

Please drop this stupid rhetorical trick.

 

[BroDeal]

No need to feel ****ed, you just don't know what you are talking about.
British cycling. Not Slipstream.

Slipstream has been touting marginal gains for a long long time. I think since the team's inception.

 

[Cerberus]

This needs to end.

The deniers hang on this notion for all it's worth using it as a lever in their claim there is no doping at sky.. Except no one who is claiming Sky's win was bought with a doping program is comparing USPS power output to 2012 output. Their output *relative* to the rest of the peloton is extraterrestrial.

Please drop this stupid rhetorical trick.

You really need to take a a deep breath before you go on auto pilot. If you'd been reading the thread you'd have realized that I've spent most of this thread arguing that Wiggins is probably not winning the Tour solely because of his warm-downs. In fact I made an objection to the data i just posted practically identical to yours because someone wanted to use it to "prove" that the Tour was clean as opposed to merely cleaner.

I was simply pointing out that average speed on TT's is a measurement so simplistic as to be practically useless. That hardly makes me a "denier".

 

[US Patent Exploding Cyclist]

Personally, I think there is certainly a doping program going on at Sky.

There were too many performances from that team that are beyond what the individual riders had been capable of. Knees, Porte, Rodgers? Froome delivered at the Vuelta last year. Then, I felt he stumbled into a good position and onto the form of his life, but GT winners don't just explode onto the scene like this.

The route was neutered, and that played into the dominance. But riding on the front for 2.5 weeks, and putting 3 in the top five for the final TT is kind of ridiculous.

This is not based on facts, so don't ask for any. But, this is just what I feel from watching them render the rest of the field useless.

Hats off to them for a job well done, but as has been stated in the Basso thread, it seems thier program is above the "level" the peloton deems acceptable.

 

[andy1234]

Slipstream has been touting marginal gains for a long long time. I think since the team's inception.

Maybe vaughters was hidden under the BC table in the winter of 2004.

 

[doperhopper]

Here are the average speeds of the final TT in the tour for the past few years. I know these numbers don't account for route or conditions but as you can see Wiggins today was no slower than the winning times in previous year. Not proof of anything but at least these are facts we can talk over

2005 55.5 at 46.4 kmph/28.8mph Armstrong.
2006 57km 50.4797kmph/31.36 Honchar
2007 55.5km at 53kmph/32.98mph Leiphemier
2008 53km at 49.54kmph/30.78mph Cancellara
2009 40km at 50.1 kmph/31.13 Contador
2010 52 km at 51.2kmph/31.81 Cancellara
2011 43km at 46.44kmph/28.85mph Martin
2012 53.5 at 49.98kmph/31.06 Wiggins

and the future knight Wig teaches the world about more human Tour

“I think the Tour is a lot more human now,” Wiggins said. “If people want to see incredible 220km lone breaks in the mountains, well maybe that’s not realistic anymore, as wonderful and as magical as they were to watch. I remember in the 90s watching people like Virenque, but maybe the sport’s changed now.”

 

[DirtyWorks]

I was simply pointing out that average speed on TT's is a measurement so simplistic as to be practically useless. That hardly makes me a "denier".

The comment wasn't directed towards you. I should have made that clearer. I run out of patience with stupid rhetorical tricks.

 

[BroDeal]

and the future knight Wig teaches the world about more human Tour

“I think the Tour is a lot more human now,” Wiggins said. “If people want to see incredible 220km lone breaks in the mountains, well maybe that’s not realistic anymore, as wonderful and as magical as they were to watch. I remember in the 90s watching people like Virenque, but maybe the sport’s changed now.”

Virenque's wins in long mountain breaks were pretty much the same as Voeckler's recent win.

 

[mastersracer]

This needs to end.

The deniers hang on this notion for all it's worth using it as a lever in their claim there is no doping at sky.. Except no one who is claiming Sky's win was bought with a doping program is comparing USPS power output to 2012 output. Sky's aggregate power output *relative* to the rest of the 2012 peloton is extraterrestrial.

Please drop this stupid rhetorical trick.

You entirely miss the argument. These numbers are not used as evidence that there is no doping at Sky. They show that the performances are consistent with non-doping performances, and, therefore, there is no performance-based evidence of doping at Sky. It says nothing about establishing innocence. All the other innuendo - team domination etc - are also consistent with a non-doping performance. It isn't about suspicion - it is about the nature of evidence. There is no performance-based evidence of doping.

 

[thehog]

and the future knight Wig teaches the world about more human Tour

“I think the Tour is a lot more human now,” Wiggins said. “If people want to see incredible 220km lone breaks in the mountains, well maybe that’s not realistic anymore, as wonderful and as magical as they were to watch. I remember in the 90s watching people like Virenque, but maybe the sport’s changed now.”

Yes we've gone from having 4-5 guys in the same team at the base of the final climb to lone breakaways as the defination of doping!

Who is he kidding? Good of him to skip the Lance years and rewind back to the 90s!

 

[hrotha]

Is he thinking of Cauterets'95 (the day Casartelli died)? Because Virenque wasn't much of a factor in the GC. He was 9th in the final GC, I think, and people weren't that much into defending pathetic top 10 placings back then - they'd rather let the leader's team work.

 

[Square-pedaller]

... I remember in the 90s watching people like Virenque, but maybe the sport’s changed now.”

Wiggins does need to thnk about more before he speaks. One minute he's suggesting that Virenque ought not to be ever forgiven for doping, and the next minute he's trying to make up by implying that he found it magical, he can exepct those of us who have memories longer than a few days to conclude that he is just saying whatever seems the most expedient at the moment, and that what he says is not necessarily to be believed.

 

[thehog]

Wiggins does need to thnk about more before he speaks. One minute he's suggesting that Virenque ought not to be ever forgiven for doping, and the next minute he's trying to make up by implying that he found it magical, he can exepct those of us who have memories longer than a few days to conclude that he is just saying whatever seems the most expedient at the moment, and that what he says is not necessarily to be believed.

In 2007 Wiggins went on a lone breakaway of around 120km+.......maybe he was doping then but not now?

 

[Square-pedaller]

In 2007 Wiggins went on a lone breakaway of around 120km+.......maybe he was doping then but not now?

Good one.

But actually, I'm more convinced that he wasn't doping then, and might be now. His rant when they were chucked out of the Tour sounded like a genuine cry from the heart, but now it's all the usual weasel words, and nothing about wanting to catch dopers and supporting anti-doping activity.

 

[thehog]

Good one.

But actually, I'm more convinced that he wasn't doping then, and might be now. His rant when they were chucked out of the Tour sounded like a genuine cry from the heart, but now it's all the usual weasel words, and nothing about wanting to catch dopers and supporting anti-doping activity.

It's selective. He wanted to compare today to riders gone by but didn't want to pick Armsrrong or Indurian so he picks Virenque in the 90s! Virenque wasn't even doing his lone breakaway thing until after he came back in he 2000's.

Wiggins is full of it. Making statements like this is counterproductive.

Surely if you're going to suggest your clean then compare to an era that was more ridiculous than what we just saw.

Virenque was never a TT nor did he ever gesture to a team mate on HC climb whilst soft pedaling!

 

[BroDeal]

We have seen this before. Wiggins is really good at dumping on riders like Ricco, Landis, and Virenque. Meanwhile he praises drug cheats like Armstrong. If Wiggins was really clean then he would be mad as hell about Armstrong because Armstrong made it impossible for people to believe in Wiggins' own performances.

 

[180mmCrank]

It's selective. He wanted to compare today to riders gone by but didn't want to pick Armsrrong or Indurian so he picks Virenque in the 90s! Virenque wasn't even doing his lone breakaway thing until after he came back in he 2000's.

Wiggins is full of it. Making statements like this is counterproductive.

Surely if you're going to suggest your clean then compare to an era that was more ridiculous than what we just saw.

Virenque was never a TT nor did he ever gesture to a team mate on HC climb whilst soft pedaling!

Taking a shot at Virenque in France is just not a smart thing to do - what ever his intent - not smart!

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Whew, logged back in and am not banned. I was pretty sure I was going to get permanently banned for posting gay porn...