Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Caruut]

Plenty of people on here are pretty sure Wiggins is doped, how do they know that with any certainty?

Charles Darwin "On reading (Erasmus Darwin's Laws of Organic Life) a second time after an interval of ten or fifteen years I was much disappointed; the proportion of speculation being so large to the facts given"

Thanks to It's not Rocket Science by Ben Miller for the above quote.

Avoiding the question, I see.

 

[Ripper]

Gullible? I'll tell you who's gullible: AAA (armchair anti-doping authority) idiots who automatically assume that Wiggins is doping just because he won the Tour.

No doubt some people make that assumption. However, much of the talk about Sky is about much, much more than simply a win. Of course, you know that and you look like you are now just trolling for a reaction.

I actually feel sorry for people who have been so worn down by the years of doping and cheating that they've lost all ability to discern genuinely clean riders.

Nothing to feel sorry for. However, discerning "genuinely" clean riders is guesswork. And proven to have the same result.

Evans won last year's Tour as a clean rider, and Bradley Wiggins won this year's Tour as a clean rider. Eat it.

LMAO. What am I "eating" exactly? It's not like I lose anything with a clean Tour winner. You sound mighty angry. You could get some therapy for that

 

[xcleigh]

Avoiding the question, I see.

Not at all, From merely watching on TV I don't know how you discern a clean rider much more than I know how you discern a doped rider?

Doesn't seem to stop people on here but then how do you discern a doped rider? And please don't give me anymore "facts", I don't think I can take anymore!

 

[Captain Sensible]

Plenty of people on here are pretty sure Wiggins is doped, how do they know that with any certainty?.

I'm 50-50 as to if Wiggins won the Tour clean ,but what I find strange is that a lot of people will say that Indurain won 5 Tours with the help of EPO but that seems ok because people liked him ? .

 

[DirtyWorks]

Plenty of people on here are pretty sure Wiggins is doped, how do they know that with any certainty?

Another denier post demanding 'evidence.' What qualifies as certain evidence? Be specific.

 

[xcleigh]

Another denier post demanding 'evidence.' What qualifies as certain evidence? Be specific.

Sorry, where did I state Wiggins has not doped? What I am stating is until suitable evidence is produced, I won't insult your intelligence as to what that may be, then it has to be accepted like it or not that he is not doped.

If you want to insult my intelligence and provide the evidence (that I have quite clearly not seen even though it is oh so obvious to those with greater mental capacity than mine such as yourself) he has doped then feel free.

 

[2008885]

Another denier post demanding 'evidence.' What qualifies as certain evidence? Be specific.

What are they using & how do you kow?

 

[Franklin]

Honestly, they avereaged 43 km/h. A strong ride but nothing extra terrestrial at all!

In Norway we have lots of Races done as a team time trial, for example the Lillehammer - Oslo race of 190 km, winning times this year 4:06 or an average of 46 km/h. Granted the teams are bigger than 5, I d say usually there are abput 10 guys doing all the work, but we are talking rank amateurs here, Mamils doing some dedicated work for three four months!

Tom Boonen said everyone was knackered in the peloton and tbh it showed. Imagine that, pro's, not rank amateurs, exhausted by the pace set by three man (and a quarter of a German). Nothing special my @$$.

Keep in mind that this course was quite a bit longer and has a more nervous dynamic. It's not simply doing a TTT! They had to check on Cav, people rode away, got caught, bottles to be fetched... all this with 4 guys (more three; Millar, Wiggo and Froome). Added a little help of a token German.

I know you love to handwave it all, but tell me when three guys managed to hold together a peloton at such a free for all race before for over 250 km. I assure you, there is no precedent.

And keep in mind there are no GC candidates or people just saving themselves for tomorrow. Really, there is no precedent.

 

[Franklin]

Sorry, where did I state Wiggins has not doped? What I am stating is until suitable evidence is produced, I won't insult your intelligence as to what that may be, then it has to be accepted like it or not that he is not doped. feel free.

I am VERY happy that more sensible people in law enforcement don't drop the ball so easily.

Lance would be your best friend. Suffice to say he would hate my guts.

We have to accept nothing.

The zero-hypothesis is idiotic and you know it. All you do is deny it because it rains on your parade. it's indeed an insult to our intelligence. if you loved clean British cycling you would be clamoring for the answers. From ostriching nobody gets better. But this simply is not your priority. You are here to protect a hero

 

[xcleigh]

Tom Boonen said everyone was knackered in the peloton and tbh it showed. Imagine that, pro's, not rank amateurs, exhausted by the pace set by three man (and a quarter of a German). Nothing special my @$$.

Keep in mind that this course was quite a bit longer and has a more nervous dynamic. It's not simply doing a TTT! They had to check on Cav, people rode away, got caught, bottles to be fetched... all this with 4 guys (more three; Millar, Wiggo and Froome). Added a little help of a token German.

I know you love to handwave it all, but tell me when three guys managed to hold together a peloton at such a free for all race before. I assure you, there is no precedent.

Did they hold it together?, the 1st break went, they pulled it back, a second break went, that stuck and they battled for the medals, yea way to go GB you guys are superhuman.

No wait I see whats happening here we are interpreting things differently(not suprising considering our different starting points), damn human nature, why can't we all think the same!

 

[sniper]

What are they using & how do you kow?

that really made me spill my cappuccino!

 

[xcleigh]

I am VERY happy that more sensible people in law enforcement don't drop the ball so easily.

Lance would be your best friend. Suffice to say he would hate my guts.

We have to accept nothing.

The zero-hypothesis is idiotic and you know it. All you do is deny it because it rains on your parade. it's indeed an insult to our intelligence. if you loved clean British cycling you would be clamoring for the answers. From ostriching nobody gets better. But this simply is not your priority. You are here to protect a hero

I have absolutely no problem people asking or arguing sensible/awkward points, unfortunately that is not what goes on, people merely state ridiculous "facts" and jump to conclusions. Hero?!?, see that's what you get on here, do you actually know anything about me to make that statement?

 

[Normandy]

To the bolded part: Oh so yes! The TV-Commentator even felt the need to say sth like: "Lets not cheer right now, better wait until the results of his doping test are back". I mean WTF?!? That really p*ssed me off quite a bit. I don't see how BS like that is helping fight against doping. That was just lame.

+1 Millar and Vino should be treated equally.

Sadly the BBC and all the papers today proclaim the fair and clean Brits where beaten by a drug cheat. These are the same papers that choose not to question the remarkable perfomance of Team Sky this year or address the the questions about them. They then go on about the fact that Vino comes from the same country as Borat, just to discredit him even more. This is what they are feeding the general public.

I find it amusing that Cav and co then go on whinging about other teams like the Australians not working with them, to deliver him to the mall so that he could win. To discredit the cycling coverage in these papers, all sports papers have the page 3 model holding a baby. Why? I want to know about the race not who is sleeping with who, and I particularly dislike how that baby is being used by Cavs image makers. Strangely there was a lot of Dandruff Shampoo adverts on the cycling pages today, with Cavs picture -Ooops!

None of the papers had the courtesy to mention and discuss the silver and bronze medalists. And despite looking for it, I did not see the medal ceremony for the race. Did they show it?

 

[Fidolix]

Next year Wiggo will do the triple, winning the Giro, tour and Vuelta, win every warm up race, Romandie, Dauphine and TDS, with SKY introducing a new training method.

 

[Caruut]

Not at all, From merely watching on TV I don't know how you discern a clean rider much more than I know how you discern a doped rider?

Doesn't seem to stop people on here but then how do you discern a doped rider? And please don't give me anymore "facts", I don't think I can take anymore!

That is avoiding the question - the question was how does that poster know that Wigans is clean, and it wasn't directed at you. You then come and deflect from the question which is "How do you know he was clean?". The guy seemed pretty certain about it.

For the record, I do not "know" that Sky doped. I strongly suspect so, but I do not "know". Perhaps I strongly suspect enough that the word "know" becomes appropriate - after all technically, we know nothing - but I'm not sure.

For many people on here, the level of doubt is so low that they feel that the word "know" is appropriate. Then posters come along claiming that they cannot know for sure, blindly ignoring the fact that "knowing" is not as black and white as they are suggesting it is.

 

[Benotti69]

Not at all, From merely watching on TV I don't know how you discern a clean rider much more than I know how you discern a doped rider?

When you watch 3 weeks of pure dominance by one team in a sport where doping is the norm, what is it you expect people watching the sport for a long time to think?. Then when you learn the doctors they are working with, well then it becomes obvious all is not what it seems?

Doesn't seem to stop people on here but then how do you discern a doped rider? And please don't give me anymore "facts", I don't think I can take anymore!

That's fine, dont waste your time trying to defend something that Sky have not yet bothered to explain or defend because it is obvious they cant.

 

[Franklin]

I have absolutely no problem people asking or arguing sensible/awkward points, unfortunately that is not what goes on, people merely state ridiculous "facts" and jump to conclusions. Hero?!?, see that's what you get on here, do you actually know anything about me to make that statement?

You deny every single fact and scream "that's no evidence" while you know that they are facts and evidence. For the record, the count of dodgy doctors is at two.

No post of you yet... "hmmm though the performances might be clean, that's really odd and not in their mission statement."

All you do is hammer how mean we are for assuming the worst and how illogical assuming the worst is. Your position flies straight into the face of the evidence namely 20 years of doped winners. And yes, BMC had a soingneur caught for doping. I assume it wasn't for Cadel but for a hospital in Belgium.

We are mean huh... why don't we handwave the evidence? How dare we be critical!

And well, considering your vehement defense against every fact only gives one conclusion: you have an agenda and the agenda is protecting Sky/Wiggins. Because otherwise you would be just as critical as we are.

Or should I start insulting your intelligence? (your words, not mine)

 

[Sigmund]

Tom Boonen said everyone was knackered in the peloton and tbh it showed. Imagine that, pro's, not rank amateurs, exhausted by the pace set by three man (and a quarter of a German). Nothing special my @$$.

Keep in mind that this course was quite a bit longer and has a more nervous dynamic. It's not simply doing a TTT! They had to check on Cav, people rode away, got caught, bottles to be fetched... all this with 4 guys (more three; Millar, Wiggo and Froome). Added a little help of a token German.

I know you love to handwave it all, but tell me when three guys managed to hold together a peloton at such a free for all race before for over 250 km. I assure you, there is no precedent.

And keep in mind there are no GC candidates or people just saving themselves for tomorrow. Really, there is no precedent.

I am not hand waving anything, and I really do not care what about Wiggins and Team GB, I am not Brittish, and no fan of Wiggins, but you have totally unrealitsitc expecttations of what sort of physical performance is possible. What Boonen said is irrelevant without context, because you have to what it was to ascertain what he meant.

Fact is, rank amateurs are able to hold 43 - 46 km/h TTTing with 8-10 men doing almost all the work. I cited one example, here are two more. When I did the around Mjøsa race we were a group of 19 people, after 40 km we were 8 people left doing the work, and we averaged app 42.5 km/h for 225 km, all of us rank amateurs in two piece uniforms and regular helmets. This was in preparation for the race of Trondheim - Oslo where we set a record of 12:50 for 540 km, thats 42+ km/h for half a day, 300 km with 8 - 10 men doing the work (I broke my collarbone the week before so couldnt participate), this time in skinsuits and TT helmets.

So go ahead and be suspicious of Wiggins and Froome all you like, there are plenty of legitimate reasons for such a suspcion but the level of performance is not one of them.

 

[BroDeal]

I am not hand waving anything, and I really do not care what about Wiggins and Team GB, I am not Brittish, and no fan of Wiggins, but you have totally unrealitsitc expecttations of what sort of physical performance is possible. What Boonen said is irrelevant without context, because you have to what it was to ascertain what he meant.

Fact is, rank amateurs are able to hold 43 - 46 km/h TTTing with 8-10 men doing almost all the work. I cited one example, here are two more. When I did the around Mjøsa race we were a group of 19 people, after 40 km we were 8 people left doing the work, and we averaged app 42.5 km/h for 225 km, all of us rank amateurs in two piece uniforms and regular helmets. This was in preparation for the race of Trondheim - Oslo where we set a record of 12:50 for 540 km, thats 42+ km/h for half a day, 300 km with 8 - 10 men doing the work (I broke my collarbone the week before so couldnt participate), this time in skinsuits and TT helmets.

So go ahead and be suspicious of Wiggins and Froome all you like, there are plenty of legitimate reasons for such a suspcion but the level of performance is not one of them.

Some of those rank amateurs should have jumped in there and won gold. It would have been easy.

 

[Dead Star]

You deny every single fact and scream "that's no evidence" while you know that they are facts and evidence. For the record, the count of dodgy doctors is at two.

No post of you yet... "hmmm though the performances might be clean, that's really odd and not in their mission statement."

All you do is hammer how mean we are for assuming the worst and how illogical assuming the worst is. Your position flies straight into the face of the evidence namely 20 years of doped winners. And yes, BMC had a soingneur caught for doping. I assume it wasn't for Cadel but for a hospital in Belgium.

We are mean huh... why don't we handwave the evidence? How dare we be critical!

And well, considering your vehement defense against every fact only gives one conclusion: you have an agenda and the agenda is protecting Sky/Wiggins. Because otherwise you would be just as critical as we are.

Or should I start insulting your intelligence? (your words, not mine)

+1 to you and benotti69. Good posts.

 

[thehog]

Some of those rank amateurs should have jumped in there and won gold. It would have been easy.

You have admit because the Olympic Road race was only a single day event they weren't able to get the 10% marginal gains from warming down.

 

[xcleigh]

You deny every single fact and scream "that's no evidence" while you know that they are facts and evidence. For the record, the count of dodgy doctors is at two.

No post of you yet... "hmmm though the performances might be clean, that's really odd and not in their mission statement."

All you do is hammer how mean we are for assuming the worst and how illogical assuming the worst is. Your position flies straight into the face of the evidence namely 20 years of doped winners. And yes, BMC had a soingneur caught for doping. I assume it wasn't for Cadel but for a hospital in Belgium.

We are mean huh... why don't we handwave the evidence? How dare we be critical!

And well, considering your vehement defense against every fact only gives one conclusion: you have an agenda and the agenda is protecting Sky/Wiggins. Because otherwise you would be just as critical as we are.

Or should I start insulting your intelligence? (your words, not mine)

The facts that I agree with(there may be more but these are the ones I can remember):


Sky employ 2 doctors who have been involved with doping.

Sky were the dominant team at the tour and other races.

Sky/GB did a massive amount of work at the Olympic road race.

Froome has improved massively

Sky's lack of Openess


But that doesn't all point to doping in my eyes, you may be incredulous at that but that is just the way it is and please I'm not a child, don't patronise me with the"oh don't be mean" ********.

You also need to really understand the difference between facts and evidence.

Anyway you'll be glad to hear that my 2 weeks off work are at an end and I can now go back to my job. These 2 weeks have fare tired me out.

 

[the big ring]

Fact is, rank amateurs are able to hold 43 - 46 km/h TTTing with 8-10 men doing almost all the work.

If you consider 1 minute on for each rider, that's 1 minute on with 2 minutes recovery for Sky vs 1 minute on with 7-9 minutes recovery for the amateurs. Don't make me analyse drafting advantages beyond rider #3.

3 times the riders with 10% improved speed for the same power (on TT bikes, etc) with 3-4x the recovery is a very bad example to support your argument.

 

[iZnoGouD]

will Froome dope again for Vuelta?

 

[Franklin]

If you consider 1 minute on for each rider, that's 1 minute on with 2 minutes recovery for Sky vs 1 minute on with 7-9 minutes recovery for the amateurs. Don't make me analyse drafting advantages beyond rider #3.

3 times the riders with 10% improved speed for the same power (on TT bikes, etc) with 3-4x the recovery is a very bad example to support your argument.

Don't forget about the added logistic issues of having to watch breaks, fetch water etc.

It's absolutely not comparable at all.