Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Montanus]

will Froome dope again for Vuelta?

The proof will be: he can follow Contador fairly well in the mountains.

 

[the big ring]

The proof will be: he can follow Contador fairly well in the mountains.

I personally want Froome to smash Contador in the mountains.

 

[ferryman]

I personally want Froome to smash Contador in the mountains.

FFS how far has this madness gone

 

[gthx_gthx_]

I personally want Froome to smash Contador in the mountains.

If that happens , the clinic will go completely nuts. This thread alone will gain 200 pages.

 

[the big ring]

FFS how far has this madness gone

I wanna see Vroome go "Full Ricco".

 

[ferryman]

If that happens , the clinic will go completely nuts. This thread alone will gain 200 pages.

Indeed but half the posters on here (myself included) will simply finally give up on the sport as that really would be the final straw.

 

[ferryman]

I wanna see Vroome go "Full Ricco".

OK, I get you

 

[T_S_A_R]

You have admit because the Olympic Road race was only a single day event they weren't able to get the 10% marginal gains from warming down.

they could have warmed down the day before

expect geraint thomas to win all 5 monuments in 2013 using this technique.

 

[Sigmund]

If you consider 1 minute on for each rider, that's 1 minute on with 2 minutes recovery for Sky vs 1 minute on with 7-9 minutes recovery for the amateurs. Don't make me analyse drafting advantages beyond rider #3.

3 times the riders with 10% improved speed for the same power (on TT bikes, etc) with 3-4x the recovery is a very bad example to support your argument.

No TT bikes, regular bikes, I think one of the guys had an S2 otherwise plain old, regular road bikes. And I think it is a very relevant comparison.

 

[Sigmund]

Some of those rank amateurs should have jumped in there and won gold. It would have been easy.

Whatever man, check the results http://www.styrkeproven.no . I am not claiming we were any good in the big scheme of things, quite the opposite. I have done two Norwegian championsships, and crashed out of one and punctured and only made it for 100 km of another. I have done 6 or 7 Norwegian cup races and only made it to the finnish in two of them, so I have no illusions.

You cannot get around the fact that the record going from Trondheim to Oslo on a bike, regular bike, no TT or Triathlon bars, is 12:50 over a distance of 540 km. That's over 42 km/h average, and it is set by mamils with two kids and a full time job. And allthough the wind conditions were favourable, the weather was terrible. Rain for most of the time and 8 degress Celsius crossing the mountain. Half the team even crashed.

Given that, I think that the fact that 5-6 of the best TT riders in the world doing 43 km/h for 180 km is not clinic worthy.

 

[Dead Star]

Post digression alert! Where are you mods!?

 

[iZnoGouD]

Indeed but half the posters on here (myself included) will simply finally give up on the sport as that really would be the final straw.

i don't care if they dope if that means more entertainment for us spectators
they should be allowed to dope and kill themselves

 

[Montanus]

Whatever man, check the results http://www.styrkeproven.no . I am not claiming we were any good in the big scheme of things, quite the opposite. I have done two Norwegian championsships, and crashed out of one and punctured and only made it for 100 km of another. I have done 6 or 7 Norwegian cup races and only made it to the finnish in two of them, so I have no illusions.

You cannot get around the fact that the record going from Trondheim to Oslo on a bike, regular bike, no TT or Triathlon bars, is 12:50 over a distance of 540 km. That's over 42 km/h average, and it is set by mamils with two kids and a full time job. And allthough the wind conditions were favourable, the weather was terrible. Rain for most of the time and 8 degress Celsius crossing the mountain. Half the team even crashed.

Given that, I think that the fact that 5-6 of the best TT riders in the world doing 43 km/h for 180 km is not clinic worthy.

Sssshhhhh! You are spoiling the sky-bashing party going on here. Prepare to be judged a moron who is blind to the obvious, etc.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Sssshhhhh! You are spoiling the sky-bashing party going on here. Prepare to be judged a moron who is blind to the obvious, etc.

No, just judged as someone making an utterly pointless point.

If that's the way it goes, then the PT teams need to be hiring more Norwegian mothers.

It's not even apples and oranges, more like apples and meat.

Everyone's got a story how fast they went, or how fast they could've gone, in regards to the studs of the day.

Ya know what? If you're not there, it doesn't matter...

 

[DirtyWorks]

What I am stating is until suitable evidence is produced,

What I and maybe others want to know what you feel would be "suitable evidence." What facts would lead you to believe that at minimum, some members of the Sky team doped to win the 2012 TdF.

As to the rest, it's not a personal attack. They don't add anything to the discussion.

 

[jilbiker]

Swimming and the Sky/Wiggins Coach

I am watching swimming at the Olympics, I see the solid muscled shoulders, the square jaw, the strong neck muscles for the Women and Men. There is no doubt in my mind that these swimmers are juiced and yet we do not have numerous cases of PED detection in swimming! Like we do in Cycling! What are we do wrong in cycling????? Sky has the answer, we are not employing swimming coaches....so they got one for their star Rider and indirectly for the team...and here we are a TDF, nice ROI. It will be interesting to see if other cycling teams follow.

 

[DirtyWorks]

There is no doubt in my mind that these swimmers are juiced and yet we do not have numerous cases of PED detection in swimming!

The IOC has a great system where **all** anti-doping processing flows through the sports federation. We don't know if there are positives. Unless WADA becomes the enforcement authority, I doubt we'll ever know.

 

[richtea]

What I and maybe others want to know what you feel would be "suitable evidence." What facts would lead you to believe that at minimum, some members of the Sky team doped to win the 2012 TdF.

I think convincing evidence would be one or more of:

1) Positive test
2) Evidence of a covered up positive test
3) Admission
4) Eye-witness account
5) Performances outside estimated human physiological limits

Without any of that, it is just speculation.

 

[Cookster15]

i don't care if they dope if that means more entertainment for us spectators
they should be allowed to dope and kill themselves

I guess you're joking right? If not that is very selfish - who cares who dies as long as I'm 'entertained' ?

Anyhow from a spectators or TV viewers point of view you'd be hard pressed to "see" any difference between doped and undoped. The 10-15% difference will only be obvious to the stop watch .... or riders suddenly performing at a higher level than recent years results would suggest.

Last years tour is an example. Yes many said the Pyrenees were boring but the Alps were some of the best racing for years - and most agreed last years Tour was the cleanest in years.

It's just too bad Sky seem to have reversed the trend and their doping seems to have made the Tour more boring - not less (as discussed on the other thread).

 

[Cookster15]

I am watching swimming at the Olympics, I see the solid muscled shoulders, the square jaw, the strong neck muscles for the Women and Men. There is no doubt in my mind that these swimmers are juiced and yet we do not have numerous cases of PED detection in swimming! Like we do in Cycling! What are we do wrong in cycling????? Sky has the answer, we are not employing swimming coaches....so they got one for their star Rider and indirectly for the team...and here we are a TDF, nice ROI. It will be interesting to see if other cycling teams follow.

Not sure about the square jaw, but world class swimmers - including women - do a lot of weight training to supplement strength gained from swimming drills. Women sprinters are known to be capable of 20 chin ups with full extension - unheard of in the female population generally.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You cannot get around the fact that the record going from Trondheim to Oslo on a bike, regular bike, no TT or Triathlon bars, is 12:50 over a distance of 540 km. That's over 42 km/h average, and it is set by mamils with two kids and a full time job. And allthough the wind conditions were favourable, the weather was terrible. Rain for most of the time and 8 degress Celsius crossing the mountain. Half the team even crashed.

Tailwind will get give u a possible 5k advantage. Nevertheless a nice accomplishment. But do u really want to compare that with an Olympic race with dito tension?

Given that, I think that the fact that 5-6 of the best TT riders in the world doing 43 km/h for 180 km is not clinic worthy.

So we have Stennard, Millar, Froome and Wiggo. That's 2 socalled world class TT'ers. U didn't see Wiggo put on the gas and the pack being 50 metres behind?

But even with Wiggo and the Vroom Vroom they couldn't win from the alliances, good day imho.

 

[Sigmund]

No, just judged as someone making an utterly pointless point.

If that's the way it goes, then the PT teams need to be hiring more Norwegian mothers.

It's not even apples and oranges, more like apples and meat.

Everyone's got a story how fast they went, or how fast they could've gone, in regards to the studs of the day.

Ya know what? If you're not there, it doesn't matter...

I really do not understand what you are trying to say here? Someone claims that averaging 43 km/h for over 200 km is extra terrestrial, and as such an indication of doping. I point out motivated weekend warriors in a slightly bigger team are capable of similar, even faster speeds over such distances. In other words, it is not extraterrestrial at all. How is that pointless?

If the point of this thread is to discuss whether or not Sky is doping, and someone claims their performace indicates as much, I would say it is very much relevant to point out that their performance in the olympics (at least the part about averaging 43 km/h) is no such indication. I back this ascertion up with a relevant example.

Why did some of the best riders in the world then crack: Well possibly because they did the first 120 km at app 40 km/h, then upped it to over43 km/ for the next 80 or so km, before doing the last 50 km at 50 km/h. I would guess that means they probably did 52-54 km/h for the first 20-25 km after finnishing box hill for the last time. I do not know the wind conditions but that is pretty hard, and hence they cracked quickly.

 

[Sigmund]

Tailwind will get give u a possible 5k advantage. Nevertheless a nice accomplishment. But do u really want to compare that with an Olympic race with dito tension?

So we have Stennard, Millar, Froome and Wiggo. That's 2 socalled world class TT'ers. U didn't see Wiggo put on the gas and the pack being 50 metres behind?

But even with Wiggo and the Vroom Vroom they couldn't win from the alliances, good day imho.

I am not comparing that to the olympics, as mentioned above I am merely pointing out that calling 43km/h for 200+ km extraterrestrial doesnt stand up to scrutiny, nothing more.

I count three world class TTers, Froome, Wiggo, and Millar.

 

[Benotti69]

I am not comparing that to the olympics, as mentioned above I am merely pointing out that calling 43km/h for 200+ km extraterrestrial doesnt stand up to scrutiny, nothing more.

I count three world class TTers, Froome, Wiggo, and Millar.

only proven to be a world class TTer with Dope

 

[Montanus]

only proven to be a world class TTer with Dope

You mean 2nd in WC ITT 2010 doesn't prove he is a world class TTer? Or was he doped then also?

Btw, don't forget that GB boys had some help during the way: Kiryienka, Martin, and some others took some pulls.