Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[DirtyWorks]

So it is your position that it should not be possible to do 41,5 km/h for 150 km+ for 4-6 top riders clean?

-Is it possible? Of course.
-Is it likely in this case? No.

Also keep in mind they were maintaining a restrained pace so as not to lose Cav. IMHO, If they had a "plan b" at minimum the sprinters would have been blown out the back shutting down the break on Box Hill. From there, I think a Sky podium would have been a foregone conclusion.

 

[Montanus]

-Is it possible? Of course.
-Is it likely in this case? No.

Also keep in mind they were maintaining a restrained pace so as not to lose Cav. IMHO, If they had a "plan b" at minimum the sprinters would have been blown out the back shutting down the break on Box Hill. From there, I think a Sky podium would have been a foregone conclusion.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

A Sky podium was still a foregone conclusion in the last few km, right?

 

[Franklin]

So it is your position that it should not be possible to do 41,5 km/h for 150 km+ for 4-6 top riders clean?

Oh drop it, the charade is just a charade. If the peloton is knackered because three men have been driving it those three men sure as hell put in extra ordinary performances.

Let me drive the idiocy of your post home like the nail it deserves to recieve: riders from Italy, Spain, Holland, USA and Swiss, about 10 man whose names are rather resounding were relatively rested and went all out. They managed to ad 10-20 sec to the break and yet it remained rocksolid for the other part.

All in a days work. Tom Boonen? Bah, he's not a candle to a Norwegian Amateur. Really, why are we even talking about this rubbish. All in all very mediocre. It's the most logical thing in the world that three guys tire out a peloton.

Nothing to see here, move along.

 

[Sigmund]

Oh drop it, the charade is just a charade. If the peloton is knackered because three men have been driving it those three men sure as hell put in extra ordinary performances.

Let me drive the idiocy of your post home like the nail it deserves to recieve: riders from Italy, Spain, Holland, USA and Swiss, about 10 man whose names are rather resounding were relatively rested and went all out. They managed to ad 10-20 sec to the break and yet it remained rocksolid for the other part.

All in a days work. Tom Boonen? Bah, he's not a candle to a Norwegian Amateur. Really, why are we even talking about this rubbish. All in all very mediocre. It's the most logical thing in the world that three guys tire out a peloton.

Nothing to see here, move along.

First of all they were 4 - 6 riders on the front and not three. Second, It is a fact fact that they averaged 41,5 km/h for the first 200 km, it is very easy to verify. Whatever you think that is objectively speaking not very fast.

It may not fit with your theory, but that doesn't make it any faster.

As another example of what is possible, since you don't like my Norwegian amateur examples, in the 1968 Olympics the four man team of Netherlands completed the 104 km course in 2:07:46, that is 48,5 km/h on average.

It may not fit with your theory, but that doesn't make it any faster.

 

[mb2612]

The roads were narrow, technical and of poor quality, which has much more influence on speed than the relative strength of the riders pulling.

I agree that 41km/h isn't anything to write home about on it's own, but I don't think it was an easy pace.

 

[Knutsen]

.... but I don't think it was an easy pace.

I think the keyword here was "extraterrestrial performance" and "never seen before".

 

[DirtyWorks]

I think the keyword here was "extraterrestrial performance" and "never seen before".

Right now, we can agree to disagree. The bromance is still in full honeymoon mode and something that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck can't possibly be a duck.

When the wheels come off this show, and they will, let's revisit.

 

[Ripper]

You're missing the point. The Tour-dominance theory predicts they would catch the Olympic break. During the Tour, these threads were full of doping accusations based on Sky's ability to control the Tour day after day. Certainly, a team with that power would be able to control a single day race. Failure to control the Olympics should be disconfirming.

The Tour thingy also has a context of a different team, a bigger team, and a race where to power to weight matters a heck of a lot more than tactics.

The UK had a much smaller team, missing some key Sky riders from the TdF (EBH, MR and RP). In other words, the munitions were wayyyyyyy down compared to the Tour.

Doh

 

[No_Balls]

While I agree that there's not that much evidence other than episodes like the Olympic road race and the TdF GC times, I see it the other way, extraterrestrial performances. Differing opinions is okay.

There are countless ways to imagine it will blow up. This is pro cycling and many, many people were involved. It's going to blow up. That's assuming Sky doesn't get the usual Olympic hangover and slash budget or just vanish next year.

At least next year is not an Olympic in Great Britain so i expect "a sudden" drop in performance from Sky come one year from now.

 

[Franklin]

I think the keyword here was "extraterrestrial performance" and "never seen before".

Yes and this was extraterrestial. The handwaving is beyond funny. Note that all evidence is countered with: Norwegian amateurs with ten guys did it for 180 km! 4 man on full TT bikes without any other responsbility did it for 100 km! So why can't three guys do it for 250 km?

I mean, hey, Nobbles, Gesink, Boom, Valverde, LL Sanchez, Schar, Cancellara, they add 10-20 seconds going all out against just Wiggo who already did his fair share(Froome was gone)... just normal!

Adding imaginary riders and downplaying the evidence does not change this one iota. It's pedantic and moronic.

 

[Sigmund]

Yes and this was extraterrestial. The handwaving is beyond funny. Note that all evidence is countered with: Norwegian amateurs with ten guys did it for 180 km! 4 man on full TT bikes without any other responsbility did it for 100 km! So why can't three guys do it for 250 km?

I mean, hey, Nobbles, Gesink, Boom, Valverde, LL Sanchez, Schar, Cancellara, they add 10-20 seconds going all out against just Wiggo who already did his fair share(Froome was gone)... just normal!

Adding imaginary riders and downplaying the evidence does not change this one iota. It's pedantic and moronic.

You do realise what a TT bike was like in 1968 right?
And despite it having been pointed out too you repeatedly that 250 km is wrong you keep on wih that figure.

You also realise there is a bit of a difference between 48, 46, and 41,5 km/h right?

 

[Franklin]

You do realise what a TT bike was like in 1968 right?

You mean the full delta frames with aero helmets and diskwheels used by John Talen, Tom Cordes, Rob Harmeling and Gerrit de Vries ?

I will help you a bit, that wasn't in 1968. It was in 1986

And despite it having been pointed out too you repeatedly that 250 km is wrong you keep on wih that figure.

And I point out that Sky started to pull at the start and stopped at the end. Your denial is becoming more hilarious with each post.

You also realise there is a bit of a difference between 48, 46, and 41,5 km/h right?

I certainly realize that. Clearly you don't realize that:

250km=a lot farther than 100km
10=a lot easier than 3
Pulling a peloton is a lot more stressful than just rotating
Having to go to the back of the peloton to get drinks is hardly effortless

But hey, don't let it stop you from maintaining that it was mediocre.

I mean, everyone could see the teams of Spain, Italy, Swiss and Holland pull at the front and gain just seconds, but it's a lot more convenient to handwave it

Tom Boonen, a bloody liar! Everyone was just having fun and giggles, it was the Olympics, pretending to be tired... not even attempting to have a bigger gap. They should have been Norwegian amateurs! They would have bumrushed the road race with 46 km.

 

[Sigmund]

You mean the full delta frames with aero helmets and diskwheels used by John Talen, Tom Cordes, Rob Harmeling and Gerrit de Vries ?

I will help you a bit, that wasn't in 1968. It was in 1986



And I point out that Sky started to pull at the start and stopped at the end. Your denial is becoming more hilarious with each post.



I certainly realize that. Clearly you don't realize that:

250km=a lot farther than 100km
10=a lot easier than 3
Pulling a peloton is a lot more stressful than just rotating
Having to go to the back of the peloton to get drinks is hardly effortless

But hey, don't let it stop you from maintaining that it was mediocre.

I mean, everyone could see the teams of Spain, Italy, Swiss and Holland pull at the front and gain just seconds, but it's a lot more convenient to handwave it

Tom Boonen, a bloody liar! Everyone was just having fun and giggles, it was the Olympics, pretending to be tired... not even attempting to have a bigger gap. They should have been Norwegian amateurs! They would have bumrushed the road race with 46 km.

We try again, http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/summer/1968/CYC/mens-100-kilometres-team-time-trial.html
1968 olympics. 1986 did not have an olympics.

Not 250 km, the break went at 20 km, they passed box hill the last time at 199,5 km. That is 180 km. Tony Martin imaginary? Kriyenka imaginary? That makes 4-6 riders.

The difference between 41,5 and 48,5 in power is 20-30%.

And, no the break was not going all out, untill they came together and started the home stretch. Then it was definately all out, which is why they averaged 50 km/h for the last 50 km.

But go on with the roll eyes and half truths to support you erroneous first assumption of this performance being extra terrestrial.

 

[sittingbison]

...You also realise there is a bit of a difference between 48, 46, and 41,5 km/h right?

errmmm...not wanting to spoil the party, but there is a bit of a difference between Mexico City (elevation 2240m) and London (elevation 24m) so its probably not a good idea to compare them for physiological performance.

And I'm also wondering what the terrain is between Trondheim and Oslo? I'm guessing its pretty hilly, but I'm probably wrong

 

[Montanus]

GB boys just had one pace. When Cancellara, LLS, Valverde, etc. attacked last time on Box Hill, GB just continued with there pace and couldn't counter even if they must have known that it was a superdangerous move. Canc and et al. connected to the front group pretty quick and the gap to the peleton opened up to about 50 seconds in just a 4-5 kilometers. The chase was on in the last 40k. Froome did some pulls initially but was more or less cooked after Box Hill and dropped with 25k to go. Stannard, Millar and Wiggo got help from the Germans especially Grabsch who did some superstrong pulls. In the front it was the initial breakawayers Schar and Castroviejo who pulled, beside Albasini, Tejay and Nordhaug; italians came to help with about 20k left. Once Canc, LLS, et al came to the front the didn't do a iota, just biding their times for an attack I guess. The gap was around 1 minute most of the time.

 

[sittingbison]

You mean the full delta frames with aero helmets and diskwheels?

1968 olympics. 1986 did not have an olympics

To be fair to Sigmund, here is the 1968 TTT averaging 48.5kmh, not quite as described by Franklin. Which to my eyes makes any comparison to uber modern cycling laughable

 

[Sigmund]

errmmm...not wanting to spoil the party, but there is a bit of a difference between Mexico City (elevation 2240m) and London (elevation 24m) so its probably not a good idea to compare them for physiological performance.

And I'm also wondering what the terrain is between Trondheim and Oslo? I'm guessing its pretty hilly, but I'm probably wrong

Not as hilly as you would imagine, here is the strava segment from last years event. http://app.strava.com/rides/937432#13918712 As you can see it is only 3300 meters of altitude.

Cool picture by the way!

 

[Franklin]

A full apology to Sigmund!

He meant Zoetemelk, Fedor den Hertog, Jan Krekels and René Pijnen. I made the blunder of thinking about the last gold of 1986 (indeed WC).

I stand corrected

Still the comparison is flawed. The distances are incomparable and the logistics of a TTT are much, much easier.

And Sigmund, team GB drove from KM 4, not just when the break started.

 

[Montanus]

Mostly Martin but also Grabsch helped out GB a bit on the Box Hill circut.
Kiryienka mostly helped out before they reached Box Hill.

Can't remember this? Just check out the live report:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/2012-olympic-games/olympic-mens-road-race/live-report

 

[Franklin]

Once Canc, LLS, et al came to the front the didn't do a iota, just biding their times for an attack I guess.

And if you did a little check you would find out that Cancellara was riding in the first position when crashing. Usually riding in the first position is different than doing nothing

 

[Montanus]

And if you did a little check you would find out that Cancellara was riding in the first position when crashing. Usually riding in the first position is different than doing nothing

LOL, just before the swing was the first time he got to the front! Probably setting up for the attack. Go back and watch race, and stop with the nonsense please.

 

[Franklin]

You know what, I give up

This was the most lazy Olympic race ever where the pro's never even tried. imagine a paltry 43 KM . Team Germany was pulling as hard as team UK. In the break Only Schar worked.

Nibbles and Gesink simply coasted to the top when team UK was having tea and biscuits.

Boonen is a fat liar who does everything to make up crazy stories like a knackered peloton.

Froome looked grey when he dropped because he hadnt done his warmdown the day before.

Wiggins was nursing his left side because he's a big *****.

Sigmund, you win the argument. We need more Norwegian Amateurs (and Dutch TT specialists).

 

[sittingbison]

Not as hilly as you would imagine, ...As you can see it is only 3300 meters of altitude

hmmm...basically the London race was a pancake with a bump? Again, probably comparing apples to oranges with that Trondheim-Oslo profile

 

[Sigmund]

You know what, I give up

This was the most lazy Olympic race ever where the pro's never even tried. imagine a paltry 43 KM . Team Germany was pulling as hard as team UK. In the break Only Schar worked.

Nibbles and Gesink simply coasted to the top when team UK was having tea and biscuits.

Boonen is a fat liar who does everything to make up crazy stories like a knackered peloton.

Froome looked grey when he dropped because he hadnt done his warmdown the day before.

Wiggins was nursing his left side because he's a big *****.

Sigmund, you win the argument. We need more Norwegian Amateurs (and Dutch TT specialists).

It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong!

Average speeds tells you absolutely nothing about how hard a race is/was. And doing 41,5 km/h for 196 km (Ill give you that one, was not really paying much attention about who was on the front before the break went) really doesnt take very much if it is done at an even speed, that is a fact. And we know it was done at quite an even speed because we have the splits.

That doesn t mean they weren t tired, of course they were tired after being in the saddle for 4:30 hours, which is whyn when upping the speed to 50-55 they cracked quickly.

Was the race hard? Probably for the last, 70 km but not before for those sitting in. For the guys in the front I am sure it was hard teh whole way.

And yes, when Nibbles attacked I am sure they upped the speed.