Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

["Jeff"]

Wiggins compared his team to Banesto and USPS in the post race interview, does no one else think that that is a bit odd?

I read this more often and dont understand this at all, unless people have not watched Banesto between 1991 and 1996.

Miguel Indurain had some great helpers but you didnt see him being surrounded by 3-4 helpers in a group of 10-12 riders.

1991; Banesto greatest Tour with several good climbers (Delgado, Bernard, Rondon)
1992 & 1993; Indurain had to do most on is own as Delgado was getting old and Bernard had knee/back problems in both Tours.
1994; Rue, Gonzalez-Arrieta, Bernard.
1995 & 1996; He had a world beater like Vicente Aparico on his side...

Team time trials were often not Banesto's greatest strength either, like US Postal/Telekom/Sky. People really overrate that Banesto team. That team was not doped at all, although Miguel Indurain alone might have been.


As for team Sky, I seriously wonder how a guy like Wiggins who finished +100 in the standings in de GT for several years, suddenly became a contender.

Chris Boardman tried it, as TT specialist, even David Millar. You can't learn to climb.

 

[hiero2]

Yes, had hinted at this previously.

Brailsford says something about "leaving no stone unturned" - which implies any medical, non-WADA banned medications could also be in play. All legit and above board and as we have already seen (dropping the bike in the team sprint): playing by the letter of the rules, but perhaps not the spirit.

Just based on what I think I understand of human behaviour, I think pushing the envelope is far more likely than something WADA has declared not welcome. That would also fit the historical facts and victories. I think this is supported by Froome's performance in the Vuelta now. He isn't winning. Which, is what I would expect of a HUMAN being.

Yet, it would seem that they were just that little bit better, as a team, than all the rest this year. Either they had an utterly incredible crew of physicians and physiologists who managed somehow to manage and coach all that peaking - which is possible - or they found a way to gain a "marginal advantage" while maintaining health.

Up until now. Now Sky, with Froome, just seems like any other strong team. I am actually glad in one way to see this, since I have been cheering them on.

 

[hiero2]

I think they should be testing at least all the GT podiums and monument podiums for AICAR from the last 2/3 years.

I thought one of the most telling comments in that article was the mention of OTHER drugs, not AICAR, that seemed to yield similar results but are not WADA illegal.

 

[Benotti69]

I thought one of the most telling comments in that article was the mention of OTHER drugs, not AICAR, that seemed to yield similar results but are not WADA illegal.

During the same Tour de France raid in 2009 the AFLD-researchers found packages of Telmisartan.

It is obviously in use then. Maybe Sky have unlocked how to use Temisartan in conjunction with other PEDS

 

[the big ring]

It is obviously in use then. Maybe Sky have unlocked how to use Temisartan in conjunction with other PEDS

What I found horrifying about the BALCO case is some organic chemist somewhere grabbed an existing drug, tweaked it a bit (hydrogenated it) in his backyard lab and created "Clear" which was essentially undetectable and more potent than any other steroid on the market.

Patrick Arnold is an American organic chemist known for introducing androstenedione, 1-Androstenediol, and methylhexanamine into the dietary supplement market, and for creating the designer steroid tetrahydrogestrinone, also known as THG and "the clear"

THG was developed by Patrick Arnold for the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative (BALCO), an American nutritional supplement company.[11] The company manufactured the drug through palladium-charcoal catalyzed hydrogenation from gestrinone, a substance used in gynecology for treatment of endometriosis (Australian Medicines handbook 2011).

Structure-activity relationship studies report that the potency of the drug is outstanding, surpassing, on a milligram per milligram basis, every known synthesized or commercial available anabolic steroid at the time of its development[citation needed]

In no way am I saying this is what Sky have done. By the same token, it doesn't sound too difficult. This is one man, funded by a supplements company, who developed "ando" and went hunting in patents databases for drugs that had not really seen the light of day.

It's ridiculous to think in a planet of 7B people he is the only independent organic chemist doing dodgy things like this.

If you had a good haemotologist at your disposal, the opportunities for developing exotic cocktails would be great.

 

[Benotti69]

What I found horrifying about the BALCO case is some organic chemist somewhere grabbed an existing drug, tweaked it a bit (hydrogenated it) in his backyard lab and created "Clear" which was essentially undetectable and more potent than any other steroid on the market.

I remember reading the story of how clear came about. amazing.

In no way am I saying this is what Sky have done. By the same token, it doesn't sound too difficult. This is one man, funded by a supplements company, who developed "ando" and went hunting in patents databases for drugs that had not really seen the light of day.

It's ridiculous to think in a planet of 7B people he is the only independent organic chemist doing dodgy things like this.

If you had a good haemotologist at your disposal, the opportunities for developing exotic cocktails would be great.

A big rich team with the full backing, financially included, of the national federation woud do no such thing.............would they

 

[the big ring]

I remember reading the story of how clear came about. amazing.




A big rich team with the full backing, financially included, of the national federation woud do no such thing.............would they

Not unless they had a good relationship with the world governing body and that governing body could influence the testing of samples or results of said testing.

It would probaby also require a good relationship with the race organisers, as they would have the best idea where the testers were going and when.

Oh.

Wait.

 

[simo1733]

Just reading about this:
http://bikepure.org/2012/08/5635/
Has anybody heard of it's use in the peleton.

 

[the big ring]

"I categorically, 100 per cent say that there's no risk of anything untoward happening in this team since he has been with us," said Brailsford. "I've seen nothing and neither have the full-time medics. I'd put my life on it. He's done nothing wrong here, but we have a reputational risk. We have had discussions with him and once we've established the facts, we will take the appropriate action."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...-at-critics-20120712-21x1y.html#ixzz25NQ23m3e

So yeah. What facts were established, and which actions, if any, were taken?

 

[taiwan]

Sometimes markeing works TOO well.

Sorry but

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/534439_10151166078459873_978902687_n.jpg

 

[bobbins]

Sorry but

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/534439_10151166078459873_978902687_n.jpg

Oh dear. It is tragic that someone so mentally challenged is allowed outside and can do this to themselves.

 

[Cycle Chic]

The Musettes

'The drugs were dished out by Armstrong to teammates in white lunch bags after stages of the famous French race'

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/the_inside_dope_wVH5SsdUpW4oUgENUCNExO#ixzz25Pzigq7B

This reminded me of 2 musettes that I have of Astana from 2009. They were given to me by the soigneur of the team at the end of a stage. They had the riders names on the musettes...I got Contador and Paulinho...the musettes were empty...but when i showed them to a soigneur of another team..Vacansoleil i think..he said that that was really weird...having the names on the musettes.

Do Sky do this ? anyone seen a musette that they are given and discarded along the route ?

 

[badboygolf16v]

Sorry but

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/534439_10151166078459873_978902687_n.jpg

Is that real!?

Sad ****er...

 

[Mr.DNA]

Sorry but

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/534439_10151166078459873_978902687_n.jpg

What a tool. And why the f*** is "Challenges" capitalized?

 

[Galic Ho]

Meaning that you can't post here unless you are willing to speculate about whether specific individuals are/are not doping, just based on the way they look, etc.? I don't know where you're from or how you were raised, 'Ho', but that ain't the way I'm wired...

I missed this post.

No, just an observation. People are entitle to post without saying people doped. Your contributions are relevant given your profession and knowledge. In contrast to other posters who never mention they suspect anyone of doping, you offer analysis. The others don't. They pop up all the time and seem to have quite a knack for posting in part of the forum that by all observations, they despise with a passion.

I do however find it suspicious when people radically transform their bodies in a very short period of time and suddenly their physical performances relative to their peers improve massively. Especially in cycling. Plus it doesn't help that the appearance of certain developmental weight loss drugs in the market coincide with said transformation. The weight loss part I find particularly interesting given cyclists, very gifted riders, can find enough weight to lose.

But if you grew up in my family you'd understand why I find it bizarre. My nickname was Stixy as a teen. Because I was so thin. Ironically I was labelled as such by another kid who was as thin as I was. Given my knowledge and experience with weight gain, loss and how relatively easy and hard it is for specific subsets within the general population, least of as I said, professional athletes, it should be of concern to anyone when someone as tall as Froome or Wiggins, drops as much body weight as they have. Least of all for the health reasons that are being breached.

Given the linearity of the relationship, and the fact that the 1st point is for the shortest (i.e., most removed from present competition) duration, I think that is irrelevant.

I'd agree, if the figures for each duration were present for each year inclusively. Personally I be gullible to think they didn't have access to more complete data over Wiggins career. Selective bias on Wiggins part IMO. The more data over a longer period, the more clear the scope.

 

[Galic Ho]

I think they should be testing at least all the GT podiums and monument podiums for AICAR from the last 2/3 years.

I read that article months back. Someone had a link for it in an older thread.

When and if a reliable test for AICAR is available, it should be used on back dated samples of every major GT sample available from 2008 on wards. I'd say start with 2009.

If the UCI has the samples that won't happen. If the AFLD get there hands on such a reliable test and the samples, watch out.

Do note, from memory, AICAR only became banned in October 2010, around when we were hearing about Contadors Clenbuterol positive. Took quite some time to make the WADA ban list. Probably because they had no test for it.

When they get a reliable test, like the EPO gel test, they'll catch people in droves. Best to keep it all on the down low, keep it quiet. Then do a Blitzreig run on a number of people.

 

[Fergoose]

Movistar have the best domestique when it matters and Danish Postal / Saxo Train is laying out the pain stage after stage after stage. I wonder why Sky would switch off their team wide doping programme in time for the 2012 Vuelta?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Movistar have the best domestique when it matters and Danish Postal / Saxo Train is laying out the pain stage after stage after stage. I wonder why Sky would switch off their team wide doping programme in time for the 2012 Vuelta?

The trick is do not overdo it or even the biggest cyclinggroupy will join the dots.

And indeed, Saxo/Tinkov is 'jolly good fun' to watch, especially that Polish guy.

 

[taiwan]

No point in shredding the peloton up a mountain if Froome doesn't have it atm. They're not Liquigas

Then there's the paranoid take that with the Tour in the bag, they're better of knocking it back to regain some credibility

 

[Ferminal]

The trick is do not overdo it or even the biggest cyclinggroupy will join the dots.

And indeed, Saxo/Tinkov is 'jolly good fun' to watch, especially that Polish guy.

Majka completely stalls it after he swings off, must be clean

 

[JimmyFingers]

This thread is devolving into utter conjecture, 'might Sky beusing a drug like clear, developed by some mysterious chemist in a lab, they certainly have the money' or 'musettes with names on are suspicious, in the past they have contained drugs, do Sky have musettes with names on?'.

A truism is that the simplest explanation is usually the right one. When you have to scrabble around for complicated theories to try to prove you point, you're probably wrong.

 

[JimmyFingers]

just heard the best description for this: 'science fiction doping'

 

[hrotha]

I just think Froome is cooked. Dope or no dope, there are limits to what you can do before being just too tired. Before the Vuelta even began I warned not to jump to conclusions just because he wasn't good, because that doesn't erase what we've already seen.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I just think Froome is cooked. Dope or no dope, there are limits to what you can do before being just too tired. Before the Vuelta even began I warned not to jump to conclusions just because he wasn't good, because that doesn't erase what we've already seen.

This a hugely different parcours, and against better riders and teams. I honestly think Sky were flattered by the opposition: BMC were disorganised and perhaps split by the Van Garderen/Evans axis, and Liguigas just looked below par. I think Sky would have been blown away by Contador/Saxobank, like they are being now.

 

[sniper]

Quizz.
Who said this?

But the Olympics is more about the sport itself. There is no doping or other nonsense talk

find out here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-i-didnt-enjoy-the-tour-de-france