Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dr.Sahl]

Yeah the guy has come out of nowhere

(nowhere being 4th in the tour the year before 2010, and 8 Olympic and Worlds Gold medals before that..ha ha ha ha )

Edit: forgot his two world records in 2008. Yeah he was a nobody until 2011

There is alot of other riders in the peleton with a better record and they don't perform like this---

Its fair to say, that his road results post 2012 was ****.

 

[Galic Ho]

If that is the case then why didn’t Wiggins just hook Sky up with the the guys he must therefore of had in his corner at Garmin that had juiced him up so much in 2009 he only just missed a TdF podium behind the powerful trio of Contador*, Schleck & Armstrong*? I think a few of your dots may have been flies that died on your paper.

You and Mr Pumpy might need to get a room together.

It's been mentioned many times on this thread what happened in 2009. Lot's of easier stages...so Armstrong could attempt the Astana coup de etat. Seriously, you missed that? Or where Floyd's doping help, Allan Lim went the year after? Shack. Almost made the podium! That's a good one. Take the TTT and his chrono out, he was nowhere near Andy Schleck, Franck (whom he beat by a mighty 3 seconds) and of course AC himself. Nice try. When the racing actually happened amongst the GC boys, Wiggins was flogged. Go to 2010, right next to his hero LA again. Outside the top 20. Beaten by Lovkvist. Nice try.

 

[Maxiton]

I see you are all still ignoring the elephant in the room....Evans.

Right. The only thing ridiculous Evans has done is lose when he should have won. I'm pretty sure you don't need dope for that. Granted, he dominated last year, especially in the final time trial. But at least he had the decency to keep his mouth shut and make it look hard. And he won that Tour without a train of his own teammates in front of him, pulling him along.

But that's all for today. Time for you to rest. Tomorrow we'll discuss making a point, and what it means to have one.

Really wishing the French will remember an old rivalry, remember that they hate us Brits and do something about this.

For the record, I am a fan of several riders who I'm pretty sure have doped. Of course I wish they hadn't, but c'est la vie.

For the record, same here. Almost inevitable in cycling. But there's doped, and then there's ridiculous.

+1.

This is getting ridiculous. I cheering for everybody else but Team Sky. I did the same thing during the US Postal era and that didn't work out right.

Hahahaha. Well, it is working out right, just a few years after the fact.

 

[function]

Devil's advocate

David Moncoutie?

Moncoutie has a decent palmares even when doping was rife in stage races. For a cynic, everyone looks suspicious.

 

[Fergoose]

I think it is false to say Wiggins has retained all the power he had from his pursuit days. Yes, he has lost weight, but he has also lost punch. He's gone from multiple World & Olympic gold medals over 4km pursuits to tying with Sylvain Chavenel over 7kms. He's yet to win a prologue (although I can't remember which years didn't have them).

His 2011 Vuelta ITT was nothing more than decent and I will be surprised if he competes with Cancellera & T. Martin on Monday. I expect him to be roughly similar to Froome, Evans & Menchov. If not, I'll see you back here!

 

[function]

Now I do agree it was a bit hysterical... but in truth, what has changed since the Postal years?

I await your answer with trepidation...

Plenty has changed since US Postal, have a read

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/03/biological-passport-effective-fight-or.html

 

[thehog]

If you look at the Giro compared to today the differences are telling.

Not even LiquiGas could ride the peloton off their wheels like Sky did today. At the Giro there was always 7-12 riders left in the final 3km.

I think I'll be covering my eyes most of next week.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I think it is false to say Wiggins has retained all the power he had from his pursuit days. Yes, he has lost weight, but he has also lost punch. He's gone from multiple World & Olympic gold medals over 4km pursuits to tying with Sylvain Chavenel over 7kms. He's yet to win a prologue (although I can't remember which years didn't have them).

His 2011 Vuelta ITT was nothing more than decent and I will be surprised if he competes with Cancellera & T. Martin on Monday. I expect him to be roughly similar to Froome, Evans & Menchov. If not, I'll see you back here!

Maybe after they find a test for Aicar we'll talk again

 

[taiwan]

I think it is false to say Wiggins has retained all the power he had from his pursuit days. Yes, he has lost weight, but he has also lost punch. He's gone from multiple World & Olympic gold medals over 4km pursuits to tying with Sylvain Chavenel over 7kms. He's yet to win a prologue (although I can't remember which years didn't have them).

His 2011 Vuelta ITT was nothing more than decent and I will be surprised if he competes with Cancellera & T. Martin on Monday. I expect him to be roughly similar to Froome, Evans & Menchov. If not, I'll see you back here!

What's your point? When during his pursuit days was he better in long TTs or prologues?

 

[Fergoose]

You and Mr Pumpy might need to get a room together.

It's been mentioned many times on this thread what happened in 2009. Lot's of easier stages...so Armstrong could attempt the Astana coup de etat. Seriously, you missed that? Or where Floyd's doping help, Allan Lim went the year after? Shack. Almost made the podium! That's a good one. Take the TTT and his chrono out, he was nowhere near Andy Schleck, Franck (whom he beat by a mighty 3 seconds) and of course AC himself. Nice try. When the racing actually happened amongst the GC boys, Wiggins was flogged. Go to 2010, right next to his hero LA again. Outside the top 20. Beaten by Lovkvist. Nice try.

So are you saying Wiggins was or wasn't doping in the 2009 TdF? Are you saying his performance was strong or weak?

- If he didn't dope, why not and how do you explain such a strong performance?
- If he did dope, why wasn't he even better than 4th in 2009 and why didn't he carry that level of performance through into 2010?

2009 was an appalling 'easy' and inactive tour but it didn't have two ITTs, so wasn't custom built for Wiggins. Fourth in that company (beating F. Schleck, Evans & Nibali amongst others and losing to two people subsequently investigated for doping) with no team around him was a pretty impressive performance by anyones standards.

 

[Galic Ho]

I think it is false to say Wiggins has retained all the power he had from his pursuit days. Yes, he has lost weight, but he has also lost punch. He's gone from multiple World & Olympic gold medals over 4km pursuits to tying with Sylvain Chavenel over 7kms. He's yet to win a prologue (although I can't remember which years didn't have them).

His 2011 Vuelta ITT was nothing more than decent and I will be surprised if he competes with Cancellera & T. Martin on Monday. I expect him to be roughly similar to Froome, Evans & Menchov. If not, I'll see you back here!

Vuelta chrono was about recovery.

There is a thread somewhere with all Wiggins before and after chronos. After 2009 the big results came. That's part of the reason I take issue with his weight loss. As a chrono specialist he had some ok results, one or two good ones. This year alone...world of difference. Hasn't gone lower than 3rd. Before 2009, he'd struggle to come 5th with that being his sole focus in a race. Get the picture yet? His chrono has improved considerably on top of him now having the added trouble of doubling up as a GC rider. Something he never use to do.

Who ever stated he'd beat Cancellara or Martin when all are on form? Nobody. I expected him to be near to Evans, maybe ahead on Monday and the final chrono actually behind him. Go back to before 2009. Didn't even top 10 in those during a GT at the end of three weeks. Big change. Big improvement. Man got faster.

As for anymore 2009 Tour talk. Sky weren't there in 2009. There are other threads for that. It's not my job to keep you up to date with all the details of years past. Wiggins won a prologue in the Giro. Forget that? It was after 2009, you know, the year he sucked. No wonder you are confused. Before 2009 Wiggins closest time to winning a prologue was in 2007, in London. Thor Hushovd and Stuey O'Grady were up there from memory. Yeah real indicative of GC talent this pre weight loss form was eh! He's always been doped. Just did more after 2009. Moves to Sky, was arrogant (evidenced by his smack talk about Garmin) and arguably lazy. Thought he'd roll it in. After all 2009 was 'so' easy. Found he had to work. Sky was brand spanking new that year. Brand new. They didn't have everything up and rolling. Takes time you know to set up a nice doping base in Tenerife and places of the sort.

 

[ManInFull]

Froome's performance at last year's Vuelta was shocking and came out of nowhere. FACT.

Porte was a mediocre domestique for Contador in 2011. FACT.

Rogers has, by his own admission, improved his FTP by 5-7%, at age 32, having been in decline for years. FACT.

The only thing that I would call into question is your adjective, "mediocre", to describe Porte's performance last year. I would say that he was abysmal.

 

[Fergoose]

What's your point? When during his pursuit days was he better in long TTs or prologues?

Fair point. I shouldn't assume just because you are the best at Individual pursuit (limited competition) you are going to waltz a prologue. He never in 2007 when he was at the peak of his pursuit powers.

 

[Escarabajo]

The funniest part was Porte and Rogers after they did their work still managed to ride home and beat contenders who were drafting!

These guys will kill it on a 10km+ climb.

Sky will finish with 4 riders in the Top 8.

I don't think so. They will be told to tune it back a little.

 

[Fergoose]

I expected him to be near to Evans, maybe ahead on Monday and the final chrono actually behind him. Go back to before 2009. Didn't even top 10 in those during a GT at the end of three weeks. Big change. Big improvement. Man got faster.

If you think Evans can beat an allegedly doping Wiggins over two ITTs that seems a touch optimistic.

I also think Evans can compete with Wiggins over both ITTs, but that's because I don't personally suspect either man is doping.

 

[Escarabajo]

So how surprising is this? The riders that managed to stick with Froome and Wiggins were Evans and Nibali. Despite last year Evans has never been the BEST climber in the bunch. Nibali has always been fragile on the climbs. Ofcourse he has really good days.

Who are next? Taaramae. ZUBELDIA?!?.. Rolland.. ok big talent. Brajkovic, well he has never been a king in the mountains. Monfort...

What's this? The competition just seems to be rubbish?

My doubts come from riders like Rogers. Last few years he was always someone to get dropped fast in the climbs. Last time he did well in the mountains was during a certain era...


(I posted this an hour ago, but the forum went 404 for me)

Puff, for a moment I thought that Porte and Froome were suspicious.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

"We’ve really trained to the demands of this year’s Tour so one of the areas we’ve worked on was the steeper climbs. It was one of the areas I wasn’t comfortable with in the past. I had a lot of rehab to do last year after I broke my collarbone and one of the things that was flagged up in the Vuelta last year, that I had no upper body strength, especially on the side that I broke my collarbone on. It was something that I worked on in the gym and I really improved all my core strength and upper body strength. We’ve covered every area."

I guess this is the swimming coach influence. Is "upper body strength" the new "cadence" ? I'm genuinely curious as to whether there is anything in this for a rider that hardly ever gets out of the saddle

 

[MrRoboto]

Haha. Can already hear Paul Sherwen talking about Wiggins' superior core strength in every climb.

 

[thehog]

I guess to put it another way;

If Sky aren't doping then you've just see the single greatest natural performance in the history of the Tour. Wiggins, Froome, Rogers and Porte were all pushing 480w+ clean. That's impressive. Probably the best the Tour has ever seen in history.

 

[Benotti69]

What really puzzles me is why Gilbert's performance dropped dramatically after going to BMC.

Different team different Doctor.

Lotto's Doctor from last year went to OmegaPharma QuickStep this year.

Boonen last year crap. Gilbert last year great

Boonen this year great. Gilbert this year crap

Doping doctor.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Vuelta chrono was about recovery.

There is a thread somewhere with all Wiggins before and after chronos. After 2009 the big results came. That's part of the reason I take issue with his weight loss. As a chrono specialist he had some ok results, one or two good ones. This year alone...world of difference. Hasn't gone lower than 3rd. Before 2009, he'd struggle to come 5th with that being his sole focus in a race. Get the picture yet? His chrono has improved considerably on top of him now having the added trouble of doubling up as a GC rider. Something he never use to do.

It's actually early on in this thread.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=898338&postcount=40

Last time Fergoose was here, I was arguing with them over whether or not the Dirty Cobo was screwing the Clean Froome over.

 

[Elagabalus]

Didn't someone on this forum say British journos would never be as fawning and wide-eyed as the Americans and Aussies? Anyway, I guess not.

Not really a surprise. This year EurosportUK has extended their pre-stage talking head coverage to almost one whole hour of obsequious fawning -"isn't Team Sky great?", "We love Team Sky!" etc.

 

[Orvieto]

Well that was very disheartening. What's most disgusting is that Sky told us they were going to do it. In interviews all spring Wiggins has being saying that this will be the tactic. Their domestiques would drive the pace to drop the favourites and escort him to the summit. We all remember the last time the "let's all ride faster than everybody else" tactic was successful. Teams have tried to do this, but it never works. If your domestiques could all outclimb everybody else's star climbers, they wouldn't be domestiques. It only works if you have a systematic doping program and everyone else is just putzing around in ones and twos.
You can nit-pick and say that any one of these individual performances are explainable, but when you examine the totality of all the exceptions, it's hard to avoid the conclusion.
Wiggins might have just turned himself into a rider who used to manage his losses on mountains, to one who is there in the finale.
Froome might be a pure revelation that appeared from nowhere.
Porte might have found maturity and climbing legs to become the first class mountain domestique he never was.
Rogers might be having become a climber it the last quarter of his career.
F. Schleck might be having a bad day. Menchov might be having a bad day. JVDB might be having a bad day. Basso etc. etc.

But it's too many coincidences to be taken seriously.

I wonder what Bruyneel is thinking. How funny is it that he's not in France this July, but that he continues to haunt the race? This is his strategy. The strategy that only works for him and Armstrong, but is now working for Mello Wiggo.

 

[Benotti69]

I see you are all still ignoring the elephant in the room....Evans.

Evans has his own thread. Go get it and post on it.

Read it first though otherwise you might look a little silly.

Wiggin's is not the only rider in the clinic with his own thread.

Nor is sky the only team with their own thread.

Chill. It is a sport and not life and death, well hopefully.

 

[Benotti69]

I think it is false to say Wiggins has retained all the power he had from his pursuit days. Yes, he has lost weight, but he has also lost punch. He's gone from multiple World & Olympic gold medals over 4km pursuits to tying with Sylvain Chavenel over 7kms. He's yet to win a prologue (although I can't remember which years didn't have them).

His 2011 Vuelta ITT was nothing more than decent and I will be surprised if he competes with Cancellera & T. Martin on Monday. I expect him to be roughly similar to Froome, Evans & Menchov. If not, I'll see you back here!

Chavanel of OPQs who signed the Jose Ibarguren chap for this year who 'Doctored' Gilbert's amazing season last year