Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[maltiv]

Something I've noticed is that Sky has almost completely stopped flagging themselves as a "clean team". At the start they were always stressing that they were clean, which obviously no one doubted as they were dropped on every climb (in fact, EBH was their only rider in 2010 to win a hilly stage in any race) and Brailsford said things like "we managed to win XX races in our first season and we did it clean, blabla". They certainly haven't been as vocal about it this year...

 

[Benotti69]

Well that was very disheartening. What's most disgusting is that Sky told us they were going to do it. In interviews all spring Wiggins has being saying that this will be the tactic. Their domestiques would drive the pace to drop the favourites and escort him to the summit. We all remember the last time the "let's all ride faster than everybody else" tactic was successful. Teams have tried to do this, but it never works. If your domestiques could all outclimb everybody else's star climbers, they wouldn't be domestiques. It only works if you have a systematic doping program and everyone else is just putzing around in ones and twos.
You can nit-pick and say that any one of these individual performances are explainable, but when you examine the totality of all the exceptions, it's hard to avoid the conclusion.
Wiggins might have just turned himself into a rider who used to manage his losses on mountains, to one who is there in the finale.
Froome might be a pure revelation that appeared from nowhere.
Porte might have found maturity and climbing legs to become the first class mountain domestique he never was.
Rogers might be having become a climber it the last quarter of his career.
F. Schleck might be having a bad day. Menchov might be having a bad day. JVDB might be having a bad day. Basso etc. etc.

But it's too many coincidences to be taken seriously.

I wonder what Bruyneel is thinking. How funny is it that he's not in France this July, but that he continues to haunt the race? This is his strategy. The strategy that only works for him and Armstrong, but is now working for Mello Wiggo.

Mello Wiggo chapeau sir.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Didn´t have time today to read it all, so may it was written already:

I just saw the replay on ESP.
It´s Postal 2.0; the 90s reloaded.

A track guy who used to finish 100+ placings in GT´s is going to win the TdF?
Froome coming from nowhere is, all of a sudden (since Vuelta), dropping all the superstars on MTF´s?
A Sky-Train up the mountains, like postal, is dropping those riders who gradually improved as climbers during their careers?
What the heck is that?

In 10 years Walsh will bring a new book like "The Blood-Bank at Team Sky; How the 2012-TdF was decided". Jesus.

BTW, I do not say anything bad about Taaramae, Nibali or Evans. Those guys were there long before. Taaramae fits the (true) Lemond-Saying "Talent shows early". But Froome, Wiggins and mountain trains (not existing in the 80s)???

 

[wannab]

I guess to put it another way;

If Sky aren't doping then you've just see the single greatest natural performance in the history of the Tour. Wiggins, Froome, Rogers and Porte were all pushing 480w+ clean. That's impressive. Probably the best the Tour has ever seen in history.

Do we have an estimate about those numbers, w/kg for the entire climb?
It must be very high because they killed the entire peloton with their pace

If it would actually be around those numbers and according to them "still not too the limit" .. well .. we're back to US Postal time no

Also, Froome ............... come oooooooon ?!

 

[nighttrain]

Sky is simply doping better than their competitors and in an unabashed mode. Sadly, another LeTour is wasted on the best PED programme winning. Maybe a jersey should be awarded to the "personal medical advisor" for the Maillot jaune?

 

[Benotti69]

I guess we have seen the real reason why Mello Wiggo said no to Paul kimmage doing a 3 week fly on the wall with TeamSky a year or 2 ago.

 

[roundabout]

"We’ve really trained to the demands of this year’s Tour so one of the areas we’ve worked on was the steeper climbs. It was one of the areas I wasn’t comfortable with in the past. I had a lot of rehab to do last year after I broke my collarbone and one of the things that was flagged up in the Vuelta last year, that I had no upper body strength, especially on the side that I broke my collarbone on. It was something that I worked on in the gym and I really improved all my core strength and upper body strength. We’ve covered every area."

I guess this is the swimming coach influence. Is "upper body strength" the new "cadence" ? I'm genuinely curious as to whether there is anything in this for a rider that hardly ever gets out of the saddle

Huh? I thought the secret to getting out of the grupetto was getting off the booze and losing the unwanted trackie muscle?

So now he is a skeletor with upper body strength?

 

[Fergoose]

It's actually early on in this thread.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=898338&postcount=40

Last time Fergoose was here, I was arguing with them over whether or not the Dirty Cobo was screwing the Clean Froome over.

Ah sweet memories.

Once Froome was proven to have been riding within himself for most of the Vuelta, for me personally, the evidence supported your view that he was every bit as bad as Cobo (whose contentious track record made me judge him quicker – which I’m still comfortable with). Reading your posts in this thread I actually think we have some similar views, on doping. Its just in terms of the Vuelta you went more with your gut on Froome and my eyes took a few stages to catch up with it (I was thrown by Froome losing a couple of seconds on one of the first Vuelta climbs where Dan Martin won. It made me think he'd reached his limit and wasn't ridiculously strong).

I was predicting Cobo to fail to perform anywhere near as well in the TdF as his home tour, like the Simeonis, Valverde’s, Cunego's & Scarponi's of this world. So him losing 7mins 30secs was entirely predictable despite his Herculian performance at last year's Vuelta - I guess the TdF is more difficult to prepare for or something. Despite handsomely beating all but one of his main TdF GC contenders at the Vuelta he says he decided to focus his preperation on the 2012 Vuelta defence rather than an assault on the TdF podium. I guess the TdF isn't much of a coveted competition after all.

I was hoping Froome would have a similar drop off but alas not, his lost training due to recovering from a disease appears to have made him stronger than ever, again. I suspect Froome could have won todays stage by a considerable margin while Wiggins and Evans were at their limits.

Deja vu. He'll do all the work chasing down, ace the ITTs and still have enough left in the tank to hop onto the bottom step of the podium. I don't think Sky will tell him to take it easy in the ITT as he's proven in the past he has such strong recuperative powers. Froome will just have to settle for babysitting poster boy Bradley despite being the markedly superior performer in two consecutive GTs now. Froome might not look so suspicious if nobody attacks though, as he won't have to exert himself. You can tell he's ambitious for himself, but it'd be career suicide to try anything too adventurous.

I repeat though, in the hope of finding an answer. If Wiggins is doping and Sky are complicit, why, given his superior pedigree and being the "chosen one" in Team Sky is he being consistently outperformed by Froome? I can't add that up at all.

 

[Ripper]

Because Sky won a stage, and I knew what would happen on here, and it has! Hardly unpredictable was it, there a thread in the Clinic about them!

Don't be a tool .. this thread was not created because Sky won a stage and you are well aware of that. It's not even today in isolation. It's the whole season, and in comparison to other seasons as well as other teams.

I'm gonna go back to my old swim coach, hire me a gyne physician, spin a higher cadence and lose weight - I'll be back to Cat 1 in no time

 

[asdfgh101]

There are many options. But those are for people with higher body fat percentages. Wiggins was a pro bike rider. Olympic Gold medallist. He had no fat to lose. Not that much. He lost functional muscle mass...note you cannot choose where to lose it, it just goes. Oh and he somehow gained more power. Weird huh? Granted that any normal person who be gobsmacked at what they'd need to do to increase their performance, but no, it's a pro athlete in question.

There are a number of ways. None of them are easy. There is a reason it's never talked about. Nothing legit would work. Nothing. You'd lose the weight and go slower. Especially in a chrono. Wiggins improved in every category.

Check this out:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/01/science/sci-couchpill1

Thanks, i didn't know aicar had links to weight loss (my wiki knowledge indicated increased blood flow and glucose uptake).

I've looked into Team Sky's staff, enough smoke to show how superficial their anti-doping mantra runs.

I understand your point regarding 2010, but i still think that other factors were equally responsible for Wiggins being so poor. Expectation resulting in complacency combined with a terrible race programme. The aim seemed to be not to reach racing form until July and the reasoning behind racing the Giro was absurd. For the record the only two times i have questioned a rider's warm-up schedule was Wiggins in 2010 and Cavendish going to the Vuelta last year.

Questions: How do you believe that Wiggins has been able to maintain his speed endurance (prologue) and power (TT) to such an extent?

Lance Armstrong returned at a lower racing weight and was compromised in these areas. Taking into account his age can we deduce anything from this?

 

[BroDeal]

It doesn't take an Australian blood scientist to reach a conclusion.

 

[wannab]

I repeat though, in the hope of finding an answer. If Wiggins is doping and Sky are complicit, why, given his superior pedigree and being the "chosen one" in Team Sky is he being consistently outperformed by Froome? I can't add that up at all.

SKY wants to write their own fairy tail(s), Britisch team with Britisch winners. Big winners, like Cavandisch and Bradley, spokesmen for britisch cycling, why would they want a Kenyan to win?? No Brad must go on tea with the queen after his first tour win in the year England also hosts the olympics (where Cav will win ofcourse!).

 

[Ripper]

Essentially, on this board, if somebody wins a race they are a de facto doper.

Bwa ha ha ha ha. That there is pretty poor logic, and incorrect to boot

 

[will10]

It doesn't take an Australian blood scientist to reach a conclusion.

Post of the day.

 

[Ripper]

I'm beginning to wonder if some posters here have ever ridden a bike up a big hill, let alone in a competitive situation.

As for trashing everybody, they didn't. Evans was crossed the line in front of Wiggins.

There's a fair number of posters who race or have raced, at the elite or professional level.

What I find interesting is at the elite level I have found people to be pretty blunt in their thoughts ... depending on who is in earshot.

 

[Ripper]

I couldn't help but call the guy out on his bull**** to his face.
What's the over/under on how long till he rages at me?

Were you one of the folks who sent him a twitter reply?

 

[taiwan]

Yeah it would be better if Froome could chill out a bit. Even the casual fan might raise an eyebrow when the domestiques start dusting last year's winner. You wonder if he's following the plan or not.

 

[Ripper]

I see you are all still ignoring the elephant in the room....Evans.

Hmmm, this thread is about a team and the trend.

Could you let us know how Evans' performance has dramatically changed of late? I am not saying he's Mr. Clean, but is there anything massively different?

 

[Race Radio]

It doesn't take an Australian blood scientist to reach a conclusion.

Where is this data from?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The bold parts are exact phrases that were going through my head while I was heading over here. (Yesterday and right after the stage today, the forum was inaccessible for a time. Anyone else experience that?)

I guess what's most puzzling for me is that they make no effort to be subtle about it. It's Saunier Duval Cycling all over again - as others here have pointed out.

But what does that tell us? I mean, after Saunier Duval's exposure, and especially in this anti-doping, hyper-vigilent atmosphere, what does it tell us, that a leading team would feel at liberty to be so open about their over-the-top performances? Why aren't they afraid of appearing suspect, or drawing unwanted attention?

I'd say it indicates that the fix is in. If the U.S. Postal team and its antics were a projection of U.S. soft power in Europe and the world, and thus were seen as serving certain national interests (in addition to supplying a big payday to lots of people and companies), and if this fact explains how they were able to get away with it; then it would be fair to suggest that in this Olympics year, Team Sky is seen in the same way, and as serving a similar purpose, but to British national interests. If the payoffs have been placed and the protection provided, the team is justified in being arrogant.



To the bold, this isn't the first time that question has been asked. In fact, I recall it being asked every year about this time, from 1999 to 2005. Back then, an elaborate but unbeatable template was being followed, and they ran it year after year, with consistent results. What if this is simply the same template? I mean, why reinvent the wheel?

If this is the same template, who better to transfer it from Postal to Sky than its main figure, Armstrong himself? If Armstrong, for whatever reason, saw personal benefit in cluing in Murdoch's team, who can doubt he'd do it? This would mean, in part, an exclusive arrangement for Sky with Ferrari (thus accounting for Wiggin's recent discovery of VAM, not to mention his recent adoration of Armstrong), and probably designer drugs, as well - if your oxygen-vector drug is unique, it can't be detected.

All this would be expensive, but who is better positioned to pay for it than Rupert Murdoch? And if its seen as being in the national interest, Murdoch isn't in any position to say no right now . . . .

Supposition? Of course. Wild speculation? Maybe. But if it looks like the Blue Train, and rides like the Blue Train, well . . . maybe the obvious inference is that the Blue train template was simply transferred over, lock, stock, and payoffs.

I like that post. The fix is in in soccer, so why not at Team Sky? Murdoch is the owner? Didn´t know that. He can buy everything and controls the media. That´s wayyy bigger than Armstrong. Untouchable.

We all might just ignore sky riders...

 

[AussieGoddess]

One thing did occur to me. Did Dimspace, aka TeamSkyFans, leave the forum after last years Vuelta? If so, does anyone think his absence has anything to do with not copping ridicule for being a diehard Sky and Wiggins fan? In other words, he got out of here when he noticed the doping smoke signals and didn't want to face the inevitable?

Dim left here in February, and had his account closed in June. Not after the Vuelta ... and he is not a Wiggins fan.

In fact, Wiggins has blocked him on twitter

 

[BYOP88]

Other guys mentioned the names of the doctors around pg.50, maybe a few after that. I actually didn't know he was Thorpie's doctor. Explains a lot actually. I also dropped the name of the drug people assumed Wiggins and other pro cyclists were using, combined with others (Clenbuterol is one that can be used) to get his weight down so he'd be a GC rider.

Like what? The money equation? Wiggins got a massive pay upgrade. Take a guess how much?

Fact is Wiggins 2010 season was garbage. Run the numbers on it, know the following turn in performance he gave in 2011 and 2012 and join the dots. They were trialing their own doping program. Took them over a year to get all the kinks and bends out of it. Now it's fully certified and it works.

All the other explanations are covered. Wiggins was a running joke here during 2010. Well in the pro forum. That's how bad he was. Same story though from Sky. Same PR team. No results. Each year the ridiculous nature grew and grew, albeit along with the ridiculous results that were laughable. If it looks like doping, smells like doping and copies the PR playbook of the biggest doping team in history...yeah it's doping. Sky actually had no major issues in 2010.

One thing did occur to me. Did Dimspace, aka TeamSkyFans, leave the forum after last years Vuelta? If so, does anyone think his absence has anything to do with not copping ridicule for being a diehard Sky and Wiggins fan? In other words, he got out of here when he noticed the doping smoke signals and didn't want to face the inevitable?

Ok a couple of things,

1st: Dim left the forum after Wiggo crashed out last year, there were alot of rumors why he left, but the reason is this, he bet a huge sum of money on Wiggins to win, we're talking a 6 figure total, but he borrowed the money from some NE gangsters and I believe he's fled the country for his own safety.

2nd: Dim aka TeamSkyFans aka Howard Marks supplied and and in part funded Team Sky's doping programme, he's since stopped funding the team due to a twitter fallout between himself and Wiggins and the fact he wanted Froome to win the Vuelta and was furious that Sky went all out for Wiggins and handed the Vuelta to Cobo.

 

[BroDeal]

Where is this data from?

Freshly updated stats from sportsscientists.com. Hot off the presses.

 

[Caruut]

I liked that post back up there "The elephant in the room, Cadel Evans". Pick a topic related to the subject that hasn't come up yet, and declare it "The elephant in the room". Interesting form of reverse strawmanning.

 

[errbud]

I like that post. The fix is in in soccer, so why not at Team Sky? Murdoch is the owner? Didn´t know that. He can buy everything and controls the media. That´s wayyy bigger than Armstrong. Untouchable.

We all might just ignore sky riders...

The Murdoch empire were comfortable with hacking murdered school girls phones to get results they are the lowest of the low, so yeah the conspiracy is not far fetched at all imagine the PR sky will get delivering the UK with its first tdf winner