Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Don't be late Pedro]

I stepped away from that after 1984 when my idol (Winnen) bombed and his nemesis of he year before (Lolo) crushed everyone again in the most exciting style ever. I simply couldn't maintain not being a fan of such a fantastic guy... and that was the end of my juvenile nationalistic supportership.

I'm (still) a fan of cycling, nationality means nothing to me.

Don't get me wrong there are still a number of other guys that I am a fan off such as Sammy Sanchez and Sylvain Chavanel (and anyone that dares to try and win in a 100km+ break away).

 

[ebandit]

sanction

Sorry, you do know that indeed there are many facts against Sky and that the defense solely rests on belief, not facts

Spin all you want, the hard facts will not go away.

if there were facts...........sky would be sanctioned

so if there has been a cover up........................where/when?

feel free to 'bash sky' of course it is not 'bashing brits' but criticism of a multi national team

 

[JimmyFingers]

Sorry, you do know that indeed there are many facts against Sky and that the defense solely rests on belief, not facts

Spin all you want, the hard facts will not go away.

Ah yes, the clinic's 'hard facts'. Elsewhere it's called speculation.

Ar least Sky seem to be doing something, saying something. Most teams don't seem to be saying anything at all, despite most of the them being tainted by the fall out from Lance much worse.

Anyway since they have been convicted out of hand anything they do say will be perceived as PR or spin. I hope they fire Yates for a start, and possibly Rogers.

Although as has been pointed out, if teams start firing riders who admit to doping then they don't admit to doping, the whole thing goes underground again and we don't get full closure.

 

[The Hitch]

Ah yes, the clinic's 'hard facts'. Elsewhere it's called speculation.

Ar least Sky seem to be **** something, saying something. Most teams don't seem to be saying anything at all, despite most of the them being tainted by the fall out from Lance much worse.

Anyway since they have been convicted out of hand anything they do say will be perceived as PR or spin. I hope they fire Yates for a start, and possibly Rogers.

Although as has been pointed out, if teams start firing riders who admit to doping then they don't admit to doping, the whole thing goes underground again and we don't get full closure.

Im surprised you deny its pr. Bailsford claims to be shocked that lance was doping and with barry. How gullable are you?
Wiggin's gives 2 controlled interviews with his own sponsor in which he calmly gives all the pr correct answers but which answer no questions and give rise to.new ones (eg why do you don't claim to only have ridden with lance in 04 ?)


If you don't want to call it hard proof, fine, i don't think.it is either, though its more than enough for.me, but don't act as if sky are out there doing all they can and as if bailsford isn't a total politician.

They talk themselves up as being the.clean team and wiggins the clean tdf winner and yet the only evidence the have for this are their ad nauseum protestations - we are an anti doping team, which isn't really any better than -500 tests
Even the easy questions out there aren't being answered.

If sky are clean well they seem to prefer to spread the message the pr way rather than be open.and honest about it.

Edit: i see the word was hard facts not hard proof. Well how are the hard facts "speculation"?

The theory itself may be speculation, but the facts themselves behind it which push.people.towards the theory are just that - facts.

 

[RownhamHill]

Dave will either lose all implicated people now, and that could be 5, 6 people, which would be a PR disaster.
Or they stay quietly which only pushes things a little bit down the street and eventually gets exposed.
Neither is good.

I strongly suspect that the second outcome is more likely, but I'm wondering if the first is such a PR disaster?

Presumably - if only to avoid any costly/distracting employment tribunals next year - there would have to be some kind of pay off to anyone leaving, and thus you'd think an ability to try to manage the messages and give off a joint story: I'm imagining Sean Yates tearfully admitting to doping in the 1980's, but understanding that for the greater good of clean cycling Sky need to let him go and there's no hard feelings, while next to him DB ruefully shakes his head, and explains that his work has been outstandingly clean on Sky, and he's hugely sad to lose such a great colleague, but needs must, this is the future, extraordinary events need extraordinary actions, yada, yada, yada. Even better if you do a job lot of 5 or 6 at once as it spreads the focus of the story, and dilutes the impact of the reporting cos you get less specific detail about individuals in the newspaper columns. (I probably can't name all 11 usp riders off the top of my head for example)

Story gets spun in the UK (where it matters to Sky) that Sky are taking difficult steps for the greater good. Yates (or whoever else) gets a pay-off and gets to look for a new job as TdeF winning DS, with nothing but a bit of ancient history that everyone in cycling knows about anyway against his name. Is that really going to be such a PR disaster for anyone involved?

Compare that to a worst-case scenario where the UK media picks up on something from the past (say Michael Rogers), goes feral, and Sky are forced to sack someone, mid-season, in the middle of a PR s***-storm, with no control (either morally or contractually) over the (probably bitter?) ex-employee's messages?

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of it all, I know which PR message I'd rather try to manage.

 

[ToreBear]

I think that either Brailsford is ignorant, or rather inept at long term pr. I think he is a bit of both. Short term pr wise ignorant cycling fans might swallow this, but beyond the next month and beyond this could bite him in the *** big time if the omerta continues to crumble.

Looking at the staff listed on the homepage:
Management
Dave Brailsford
Shane Sutton
Dr Steve Peters
Carsten Jeppesen
Sean Yates
Steven de Jongh
Marcus Ljungqvist
Servais Knaven
Nicolas Portal
Rod Ellingworth
Bobby Julich


Sean Yates: Worked for Armstrong.
Steven de Jongh: suspicious team history and brought into cycling at the wrong time in the wrong country.
Servais Knaven: Same as de Jongh
Bobby Julich: Rider number 4? Though I trust a doper to overestimate the number of dopers to protect themselves from their own conscience. He is suspicious, but I haven't done enough research to say much more.


The others I have no idea about/ doesn't raise that much suspicion in my ignorant mind.

If any of these guys have a history, I hope they tell DB. DB is continuing the Omerta whether he understands that or not. He needs to be educated, and the staff are the responsible adults who need to take that responsibility. They have a chance to change things in cycling, and they should take it.

They are sought after staff due to sky's success and should be snatched up quickly by other teams. Their transgressions are likely long passed SOL, so they will not face any UCI sanctions. If they only talk about themselves and get fired, I don't see the upholders of omerta having any problem with them. If they talk about others, they might want to have a chat with Vaughters first to see if he has a role for them.

As for the riders, I don't know. Would be nice if everyone stepped up. The way I see it, the older they are the higher the likelihood that they have doped. If the staff does the right thing, I hope the riders take the hint and follow.

I really hope the staff does the right thing here.

 

[The Hitch]

Rodgers is pretty certain to get the chop, I'd think. He's served his purpose and can easily be replaced by Geraint Thomas in Wiggo's team of mountain helpers..

Dude, if geraint Thomas starts shredding the peloton in the mountains like rogers did, this thread will go another 700 pages overnight.

 

[The Hitch]

What Tweet was that?

Cath Wiggings comes from a background of cycling so she knows the ropes. I know someoene who has raced on the track with her and apparently, you dont cross her or she will have your ******** on a plate.

Doubt she would confess at all.

I doubt.she knows. People keep acting as if current dopers still tell everyone they do it. The whole point of doping these days and selling oneself as clean is to keep witnesses to an absolute.minimum. Need to know basis.

 

[thehog]

Dude, if geraint Thomas starts shredding the peloton in the mountains like rogers did, this thread will go another 700 pages overnight.

Yes but with some warming down he should be able to raise his power by 5-10-12% in one year.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Im surprised you deny its pr. Bailsford claims to be shocked that lance was doping and with barry. How gullable are you?
Wiggin's gives 2 controlled interviews with his own sponsor in which he calmly gives all the pr correct answers but which answer no questions and give rise to.new ones (eg why do you don't claim to only have ridden with lance in 04 ?)


If you don't want to call it hard proof, fine, i don't think.it is either, though its more than enough for.me, but don't act as if sky are out there doing all they can and as if bailsford isn't a total politician.

They talk themselves up as being the.clean team and wiggins the clean tdf winner and yet the only evidence the have for this are their ad nauseum protestations - we are an anti doping team, which isn't really any better than -500 tests
Even the easy questions out there aren't being answered.

If sky are clean well they seem to prefer to spread the message the pr way rather than be open.and honest about it.

Seriously how are you getting all this from my post: I was saying at least Sky are saying things and trying to do things while there are teams and riders saying and oing nothing so far.

And as for hard proof, much of what is presented as fact here is speculation, sometimes informed but other times proper pie-in-the-sky type stuff. And often its presented as fact. I personally don't like that at all.

And of course Brailsford is trying to say the right things: the British press, as I predicted, are asking tough questions. Brailsford was on Radio 5 today and got a grilling from a fairly laidback female presenter who was asking about Yates association with Armstrong, asking about Leinders, asking about Rogers.

I guess we'll see how this develops, but I am long way from being convinced that Sky are any way as dirty as USPS. I also don't think they're whiter than white. The truth will out I hope

 

[hrotha]

I doubt.she knows. People keep acting as if current dopers still tell everyone they do it. The whole point of doping these days and selling oneself as clean is to keep witnesses to an absolute.minimum. Need to know basis.

In that case, your wife/partner absolutely needs to know. All those trips, calls and suspicious behaviour? Either you're cheating on her, or on your sport.

 

[The Hitch]

In that case, your wife/partner absolutely needs to know. All those trips, calls and suspicious behaviour? Either you're cheating on her, or on your sport.

If they are just doping a few times during training (they are away anyway) and a few times during the race ( away anyway) why would a partner need to know?

 

[ToreBear]

Dude, if geraint Thomas starts shredding the peloton in the mountains like rogers did, this thread will go another 700 pages overnight.

Sorry to interject, but I didn't find Rogers climbing abilities during the tour as suspicious. He was usually dropped when someone else increased the tempo with an attack, or when he had worn himself out.

 

[thehog]

Sorry to interject, but I didn't find Rogers climbing abilities during the tour as suspicious. He was usually dropped when someone else increased the tempo with an attack, or when he had worn himself out.

After 50km of leading the peloton on his own!

 

[ToreBear]

After 50km of leading the peloton on his own!

When did that happen, and how long did he keep going uphill before he was dropped?

 

[hrotha]

If they are just doping a few times during training (they are away anyway) and a few times during the race ( away anyway) why would a partner need to know?

To help with OOC tests, for example.

 

[MartinGT]

Yes but with some warming down he should be able to raise his power by 5-10-12% in one year.

Aye.

If a pro can raise their power by 3% in a year its a big thing!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yes but with some warming down he should be able to raise his power by 5-10-12% in one year.

Whilst losing 6-8 kg of unwanted fat and muscle... oh wait.

Brad @ 82kg: IP = 580W
Geraint @ 71kg: training multiple efforts @ 580W

Wiki says he's already light. Well. A couple more kilos, surely?

 

[The Hitch]

To help with OOC tests, for example.

Why? To hide from the testers? not all dopers need to do that. I dont think these days people dope every day of the year. If they are just doing it while on training camps then its still effective and still doping and no need to involve the family in none of it.

 

[Ferminal]

When did that happen, and how long did he keep going uphill before he was dropped?

The big Alps stage, on Glandon he took over from Knees(?) once Evans attacked. With Rogers on the front Evans went nowhere and soon out the back with many others, group was reduced to a dozen or so. He eased up after that but continued on the front until La Toussuire.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

This has stirred a bit of business: http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/groundhog-day-for-cycling/

Are they in the UK? If not, libel laws are moot.

Wonder if she'll trade Brad's ABP blood values and some choice power files for a cyclismas phone number.

 

[ToreBear]

The big Alps stage, on Glandon he took over from Knees(?) once Evans attacked. With Rogers on the front Evans went nowhere and soon out the back with many others, group was reduced to a dozen or so. He eased up after that but continued on the front until La Toussuire.

Do you remember which stage? It does sound familiar, but I can't remember at which stage this happened. I remember evans being sick one day, and him attacking then cracking another day.



Edit: It looks like it might be stage 11. I'll try to do a little digging to refresh my memory.

 

[bobbins]

Sky's 'business operations manager' didn't take kindly to that article did she.

Personally i thought it asked a perfectly reasonable question. As far as handling pr goes, they would be well rid of her, hung onto David's cost tails for long enough and is now well tucked up with Dave B. I'm sure she'd fit into the family tree somewhere.

 

[thehog]

This has stirred a bit of business: http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/groundhog-day-for-cycling/

Are they in the UK? If not, libel laws are moot.

Wonder if she'll trade Brad's ABP blood values and some choice power files for a cyclismas phone number.

Funny......

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I just read Radio Millar on CN. Ok well I saw it, and looked at a few words. At the bottom was a link back to July where McQuaid was praising Millar in the lead up to the Oly Games.

My stomach is turned, so I lashed out on the Interwebs somewhere: http://gerard.cc/2012/10/18/levi/