Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Avoriaz]

Whilst dropping known anti-dopers like Scarponi

Maybe Scarponi had dopers fatigue

 

[Dear Wiggo]

so when asked for additional evidence rogers has been doping you refer to figures rogers offered in interviews himself? lol.

in the nicest way possible, i'd suggest you do more focused, objective study, more deep analytical thinking and much, much less google fuelled posting. you're not going to 'crack the case' by studying youtube videos then furiously posting your findings =)

check out this guy for inspiration perhaps http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/

Way ahead of you - but captainbag isn't necessarily the independent observer some may think him to be... It's pretty rare for someone to be completely unbiased (or biased against everyone, depending on how you choose to interpret things.)

If you have an issue with what I've posted, correct it. Seriously. Otherwise you sound like Krebs Cycle version 0.4.

ETA: thanks for agreeing there's a case to crack, btw. Much appreciated.

 

[Ferminal]

so when asked for additional evidence rogers has been doping you refer to figures rogers offered in interviews himself? lol.

in the nicest way possible, i'd suggest you do more focused, objective study, more deep analytical thinking and much, much less google fuelled posting. you're not going to 'crack the case' by studying youtube videos then furiously posting your findings =)

check out this guy for inspiration perhaps http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/

Evidence?

That's like asking for evidence Contador or Valverde doped in the Vuelta.

Take it as a given... Known dopers, dope.

 

[thehog]

Maybe Scarponi had dopers fatigue

After the Giro that he certainly did!

The only way to beat dopers is by riding clean!

 

[RichWalk]

After the Giro that he certainly did!

The only way to beat dopers is by riding clean!

So my 'with a ruddy big stick' wouldnt wash then

 

[AussieEdge]

well, not have a suspicion index rating of 7 would help.

What and where is this suspicion list you speak of?

 

[the omertà hurts]

i'm sure you're both coming at this from the point, cycling enthusiasts who don't want to see doping being systematically covered up in the sport, by sky or anyone else.

but the point being; he's re-examining and applying scientific method to data in the public domain; results from riders' blood passports (including wiggins'). he's adding to the information out there, as opposed to say, stirring around a jumble of google hits.

again, in the nicest possible way, i'd suggest trying to aspire to this method if you're actually serious about this, as your flurry of activity would seem to suggest.

 

[MartinGT]

What and where is this suspicion list you speak of?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ucis-suspicious-list-leaked-from-2010-tour-de-france

 

[AussieEdge]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ucis-suspicious-list-leaked-from-2010-tour-de-france

Ta

I'm not sure on what level should I take it, a grain of salt, as gospel what?

 

[MartinGT]

Thats 2010 dont forget.

If it was now, I wonder where Froom would fit?

2008 - 84th
2009 - DNS
2010 - DNS
2011 - DNS
2012 - 2nd

Giro

2008 - DNS
2009 - 36th
2010 - WD
2011 - DNS
2012 - DNS

Vuelta

2008 - DNS
2009 - DNS
2010 - DNS
2011 - 2nd
2012 - 4th

Aye, So he goes from best placed 36th on a GT to two 2nd place finishes and a 4th

Index, hmmmmm 11?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

i'm sure you're both coming at this from the point, cycling enthusiasts who don't want to see doping being systematically covered up in the sport, by sky or anyone else.

but the point being; he's re-examining and applying scientific method to data in the public domain; results from riders' blood passports (including wiggins'). he's adding to the information out there, as opposed to say, stirring around a jumble of google hits.

again, in the nicest possible way, i'd suggest trying to aspire to this method if you're actually serious about this, as your flurry of activity would seem to suggest.

I do not understand where you're coming from. You are being derogatory with what I am posting here but this is simply the sharpening tool.

Have been discussing Wiggins & Miller's data with the gf and how it's wrong. Unlike Bag I'm not interested in leaving people bamboozled with my engrish and explanations, so my posts on it are coming much more slowly. Kinda missed out on frist rights there but meh. In the end I care about cycling cleaning itself the fug up.

I already pointed out the 3rd week bump in Brad's 2x and Ryder's data over in the "JV talks, sort of" thread and got fobbed off. Also just tweeted an update to my final day values from Ryder and their unusual state, asking him to incorporate diurnal variation - see what he says there. But even then, I'm putting together pages to explain things. So it takes more time.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I do not understand where you're coming from. You are being derogatory with what I am posting here but this is simply the sharpening tool.

Have been discussing Wiggins & Miller's data with the gf and how it's wrong. Unlike Bag I'm not interested in leaving people bamboozled with my engrish and explanations, so my posts on it are coming much more slowly. Kinda missed out on frist rights there but meh. In the end I care about cycling cleaning itself the fug up.

I already pointed out the 3rd week bump in Brad's 2x and Ryder's data over in the "JV talks, sort of" thread and got fobbed off. Also just tweeted an update to my final day values from Ryder and their unusual state, asking him to incorporate diurnal variation - see what he says there. But even then, I'm putting together pages to explain things. So it takes more time.

Dude, you just found out that corticosteroids are catabolic steroids and you think high retics can be masked with saline. Are you sure you're qualified to analyse blood profiles for signs of doping?

 

[del1962]

la toussuire stage? when evans attacked on the glandon rogers set such a pace that turned the favorites grope into 4 sky riders, nibali, VdB2 and 2 other top 10 favorites which i am not remembering atm from memory.

Evans was setting such an impressive pace of the front that he could not even keep up with TJ, so Rogers closed the gap on a rider who was not in such great form.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Dude, you just found out that corticosteroids are catabolic steroids and you think high retics can be masked with saline. Are you sure you're qualified to analyse blood profiles for signs of doping?

Thought retics could be masked with saline. What can I say, I'm visually oriented and words are not good for my analysis. If I had have drawn a picture I would have spotted my mistake immediately.

A post later, I corrected myself, and thanked you for the clarification. I can admit mistakes - can you forgive them in others?

How about when I'm done, you can come in here and point out the mistakes I have made and laugh at me - maybe get Krebs Cycle to help you out? I will then go and correct the mistakes, and then there won't be any, and you will have nothing to get upset about.

I'm not doing this for glory, I'm doing this because I think it needs to be done.

Hint: you do not need to be an expert to look at blood values and tell there's something wrong. I pointed out the 3rd week bumps and the anomalous values in the last Giro stage too. I don't really care about qualifications. Are you an academic snob?

 

[coinneach]

I hate to interrupt a good arguement; but I´m too scared to start a new topic and upset the Hog, so I´d like to change the subject a wee bit.
What do people think about Brailsfords long term startegy in dealing with doping issues?
I have to confess to thinking he sounded naive and lead footed compared to J Vaulters. Zero tolerance in procycling is all very well, but as has been said elsewhere "you don´t win anything with kids" and anyone who has been around in procycling during the Lance years has had some contact with doping (team doctors; team mates, training camps etc)
I thought he´d take stock and admit he was wrong and try to reframe the debate al la JV. But no, here he goes and doubles rather than quits.
And the more I think about it, the better I think it looks. OK, not just now, and there are clearly going to be gaps in the squad after the re-interview with the boss and the psychiatrist.
But in 3 years time?
Might it look like it was worth the effort?
Time will tell, but we have to hope procycling won´t be in this mess in 3 years time (and the mess we are in now is largely from more than 3 years ago)

 

[Parrulo]

He did shell a few out on the Glandon, but they all caught up on the downhill before the final climb.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1056304&postcount=6914

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour-de-france/stage-11/results
In the end Rogers finished 18m 31s down.

So I don't see anything earth shattering there. He just spent his energy early.

how does people getting back on a descent turns them being dropped on the climb irrelevant? also domestiques slow down once their job is done, they don't keep riding at 100% they just cruise to the line so how far down he finished is a non factors, if you don't think that then i highly doubt you have ever watched cycling before july. . .

Evans was setting such an impressive pace of the front that he could not even keep up with TJ, so Rogers closed the gap on a rider who was not in such great form.

evens going slow doesn't change the fact that rogers dropped every1 bar 4 team mates, 2 guys that ended up on the top 5 and 2 other other that ended up on the top 10. he dropped people like frank schleck and zubeldia one finished 6th and the other despite a terrible ITT and losing time on a flat stage (IIRC) was getting closer and closer to the top 10 overall before being kicked out of the race for testing positive. funny enough both riders had a better GT palmares then the entire sky roster( pre july 2012) and both had a dodgy past/present regarding doping but i guess sky's special clean baby tears milk shake is enough to have their 4th best domestique on the tour squad dropping top tier GT contenders. . .

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I hate to interrupt a good arguement; but I´m too scared to start a new topic and upset the Hog, so I´d like to change the subject a wee bit.
What do people think about Brailsfords long term startegy in dealing with doping issues?
I have to confess to thinking he sounded naive and lead footed compared to J Vaulters. Zero tolerance in procycling is all very well, but as has been said elsewhere "you don´t win anything with kids" and anyone who has been around in procycling during the Lance years has had some contact with doping (team doctors; team mates, training camps etc)
I thought he´d take stock and admit he was wrong and try to reframe the debate al la JV. But no, here he goes and doubles rather than quits.
And the more I think about it, the better I think it looks. OK, not just now, and there are clearly going to be gaps in the squad after the re-interview with the boss and the psychiatrist.
But in 3 years time?
Might it look like it was worth the effort?
Time will tell, but we have to hope procycling won´t be in this mess in 3 years time (and the mess we are in now is largely from more than 3 years ago)

check the rob hayles thread..... brailsford is not new to having dopers on his team.

 

[Franklin]

Ah yes, the clinic's 'hard facts'. Elsewhere it's called speculation.

Ahh the true believer has trouble with facts

Let me remember you as you seem to have a bit of a problem with your memory. Usually this is the time you dissappear from the thread

1. They hired a doctor who was ruled by a judge for involvement whereabouts fraud of a rather high profile case (Michael Rasmussen).
2. They hired several staff members who were involved in doping themselves as a rider.
3. A rider implicated several times with Ferrari jubilantly says he posts better scores than ever. (note that this is from the horse's mouth).

Then some odds and ends which don't neccesarily indicate shehanigans, but are certainly worth investigating. and again, these are facts, not speculation.

4. Their training location is also the number one hang out for known dopers (and yes, that's a fact)
5. Their team leader suddenly goes back on his own words and now thinks anyone doubting cycling is a w@nk3r. Funny enough the fans got proven quite right by the recent ordeals.
6. The same team leader now claims he only raced Lance Armstrong in the Criterium International.

You know what is speculation? "They are clean".

 

[xianbr]

I hate to interrupt a good arguement; but I´m too scared to start a new topic and upset the Hog, so I´d like to change the subject a wee bit.
What do people think about Brailsfords long term startegy in dealing with doping issues?
I have to confess to thinking he sounded naive and lead footed compared to J Vaulters. Zero tolerance in procycling is all very well, but as has been said elsewhere "you don´t win anything with kids" and anyone who has been around in procycling during the Lance years has had some contact with doping (team doctors; team mates, training camps etc)
I thought he´d take stock and admit he was wrong and try to reframe the debate al la JV. But no, here he goes and doubles rather than quits.
And the more I think about it, the better I think it looks. OK, not just now, and there are clearly going to be gaps in the squad after the re-interview with the boss and the psychiatrist.
But in 3 years time?
Might it look like it was worth the effort?
Time will tell, but we have to hope procycling won´t be in this mess in 3 years time (and the mess we are in now is largely from more than 3 years ago)

The more I read, the more it seems that every team has multiple skeletons to air, be it a " clean " team such as Sky or other heavily implicated teams such as (fill in with own opinion). Nearly every rider is tainted by the past whether by team-mates, doctors, DS's or support workers.
The only way of ensuring a clean slate is a truth and reconciliation amnesty where everything can be confessed to a board and fairly lenient punishments handed out for the worst offenders.

With Brailsford's strategy, I just cannot see it working, not everyone will confess and cycling will never truly rid itself of the tainted past as more scandals and associations will undoubtedly come to light and bring more woe to the sport. Integrity needs to be restored and that starts from the top (UCI), Omerta will always prevail when livelihoods are threatened.

 

[Galic Ho]

Why are you overcomplicating it? There is no need to use some online calculator. Rogers used a power meter. You don't need to estimate power when its already been measured and in that case you don't include bike weight in the power to weight ratio. If his power was 440w and his weight was 75kg that is 5.87w/kg.

If you followed cycling in 2012, least of all the vast array of PR drivel printed by Sky, you'd know fully well Michael Rogers gave both his power output and weight during the Tour. Rogers was, bragging his FTP output wass 7% higher than ever and that he is the lightest weight he has been since he was 18 at 65kg. Are those numbers reasonable with your 440W? Don't reply, the question was rhetorical.

Troll on professor. That's all you are here for. Rogers numbers are a bloody joke. He has been the tell from day one that Sky are doping their top riders. The man can barely remain upright at the best of times, now he's a world beater, annihilating opposition who use to best him day in and day out. The man is clearly doping and no hatchet job and bullsh1te body weight figure listed by you can disguise it. So the question remains...when did you meet Mick Rogers? Or are you covering for some old AIS colleague who worked with that fraud? Do tell...we're all ears around here. 75kg!!! Bahahaha. You'd have realised by now if you'd met Rogers the confounding truth...he is a born ***. Dumb, dumb man. He shouts his mouth quite a lot and loves to brag how good he is...I'll amend that, he brags about how good his doping has made him. A wiser man, with a smidgen more cognitive ability, like Evans, knows to STFU and pipe down. But by all means, keep spinning false numbers the man himself has said he is nowhere near.

 

[ToreBear]

how does people getting back on a descent turns them being dropped on the climb irrelevant? also domestiques slow down once their job is done, they don't keep riding at 100% they just cruise to the line so how far down he finished is a non factors, if you don't think that then i highly doubt you have ever watched cycling before july. . .

Because from the arguments, it seems like Rogers kept going full up all the climbs.

evens going slow doesn't change the fact that rogers dropped every1 bar 4 team mates, 2 guys that ended up on the top 5 and 2 other other that ended up on the top 10. he dropped people like frank schleck and zubeldia one finished 6th and the other despite a terrible ITT and losing time on a flat stage (IIRC) was getting closer and closer to the top 10 overall before being kicked out of the race for testing positive. funny enough both riders had a better GT palmares then the entire sky roster( pre july 2012) and both had a dodgy past/present regarding doping but i guess sky's special clean baby tears milk shake is enough to have their 4th best domestique on the tour squad dropping top tier GT contenders. . .

I count the 4 sky guys and 7 others in this video. At about 7 minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XHK59WTXWc


And I'm still not saying whether anybody is clean. It just seems to me that there is to much inflation in what Rogers actually did during the tour.

 

[del1962]

evens going slow doesn't change the fact that rogers dropped every1 bar 4 team mates, 2 guys that ended up on the top 5 and 2 other other that ended up on the top 10. he dropped people like frank schleck and zubeldia one finished 6th and the other despite a terrible ITT and losing time on a flat stage (IIRC) was getting closer and closer to the top 10 overall before being kicked out of the race for testing positive. funny enough both riders had a better GT palmares then the entire sky roster( pre july 2012) and both had a dodgy past/present regarding doping but i guess sky's special clean baby tears milk shake is enough to have their 4th best domestique on the tour squad dropping top tier GT contenders. . .

I am trying to understand what your actual point here is?

I see Zubeldia and Senior Schleck who had been strugling on the flat could not keep up with the pace of Rogers effort, finally we have proof that Rogers is doping, at least in the world of the internet message board poster.

We don't know that Rogers is clean (though I think the most likely explanation is that he and his teammates are).

 

[Parrulo]

zubeldia dragged himself back before the top and rogers obviously caught evans and TJVG that's why they are 7 at the top.

no1 is saying rogers was going full blast on all climbs the thing is when he went he dropped a lot of people inclusive GC contenders putting out more watts then back in 06 when he was riding for T-Mobile and was a ferrari client

like libertine and i have said before on this thread and the sky defenders still refuse to answer: what would you think if vladimir karpets, winner of the white jersey on the 04 tour, the Volta a Catalunya and the tour de Suisse in 07 with a top 10 finish at the vuelta also in 07 and 4 other top 15 places in GT's (2 at the tour 1 at the giro and 1 at the vuelta) and owner of a very handsome mullet but with nothing to show in terms of visible performances, other then tackling contador off the road on the 2010 tour, for a couple of seasons all of sudden started to drop people left right and center over the mountains of france for his team leaders valverde and cobo sitting comfortably 1st and 2nd on GC?

what would you think of movistar and karpets?

 

[Parrulo]

I am trying to understand what your actual point here is?

I see Zubeldia and Senior Schleck who had been strugling on the flat could not keep up with the pace of Rogers effort, finally we have proof that Rogers is doping, at least in the world of the internet message board poster.

We don't know that Rogers is clean (though I think the most likely explanation is that he and his teammates are).

struggling on the flat? lolque? schleck lost a couple minutes on one of the early stages due to a crash, he wasn't struggling on the flat. . .

also please provide your reasoning to why you think they are clean, other then the they are british therefore they are clean argument.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

He did shell a few out on the Glandon, but they all caught up on the downhill before the final climb.

Since when does that not count as shelling them? Does that mean that Danilo di Luca didn't shell Paolo Savoldelli on Sestrières in 2005 because he only finished about 10" up?

You posted some live ticker info from stage 11. Let me reproduce it as you seem to have forgotten it.

16:04 Evans within sight of Wiggins
Wiggins group of eight can now see Evans and van Garderen who are now riding with Basso and Feillu.

16:04 The yellow jersey's group
The riders with yellow jersey group are:
Wiggins, Rogers, Porte, Froome, Nibali, Pinot, van den Broeck, Brajkovic...

Oh, a group of 8, with four Sky riders in it, Rogers was on the front at this point and hey, doesn't that mean only 4 guys there?

16:05 Seven seconds gain for Evans...
Evans has gained only seven seconds with his move that started at the 81km mark. He's been on the attack for four kilometres and reached a maximum gain on Wiggins of 20".

16:07 Evans has been caught...
Evans' attack lasted 5km and he's now back with the yellow jersey. They are 2'55" behind the stage leaders.

16:09 Composition of the yellow jersey group
The riders in the group with Wiggins are:
Wiggins, Froome, Rogers, Porte, Evans, van Garderen, Basso, Nibali, Pinot, van den Broeck, Brajkovic...
They have just dropped Feillu and Vinokourov.

Now down to 11, including the two who were caught. That means that the following GC candidates had been dropped:
Schleck
Zubeldia
Rolland
Scarponi
Klöden
Horner
Menchov
Valverde
Vinokourov
Leipheimer

With retrospect, it's easy to sneer at the inclusion of some of those names (Menchov and Leipheimer in particular), but that's still a pretty strong GC in its own right.

Sky were certainly there to race properly!

Janez was probably wondering how he could get to ride for Sky next year

Easy, just needs to lose weight... er...