Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Bernie's eyesore]

The argument, half the gc contenders out the back is what I have a problem with. I can't remember seeing that.

On rogers doping or not, I don't know. I just havent seen him shelling gc contenders out the back.

That's because it has never happened.

 

[Krebs cycle]

When estimating power to weight up climbs, you actually don't need to bother with the rider's weight (within reason), as if the rider weighs 10% more, he needs to provide 10% more energy to get up the climb, as e = mass * gravity * height change.

I ignored the quoted absolute power and worked off the length and gradient of the Joux Plan and the quoted ascent time.

Using BikeCalculator.com and the following inputs:

11.7k distance / 8.5% gradient / 72kg rider / 8kg bike_kit / speed 20.15kmh, you get:

449 watts / 34:50 ascent, giving power to weight of 6.236 w/kg.

If you change the rider's weight to 79kg, you get 485 watts absolute / 6.139 w/kg.

If you change hte weight to 65kg, you get 413 watts absolute / 6.353 w/kg.

So, an estimate of Rogers' performance at ~6.2w/kg is not going to be too far out, as I'm sure he weighs somewhere between 65 and 79 kg. The difference arises from the different proportion of the rider's weight that the bike (pretty much fixed, given UCI limits) represents.

Re LeMond, I think he just plugged his historic times on known climbs into something like BikeCalculator to derive his historic w/kg benchmarks. He was writing about them relatively recently, not whilst he was still riding.

Why are you overcomplicating it? There is no need to use some online calculator. Rogers used a power meter. You don't need to estimate power when its already been measured and in that case you don't include bike weight in the power to weight ratio. If his power was 440w and his weight was 75kg that is 5.87w/kg.

 

[Gregga]

If you use 75kg as quoted on the sky website you get 5.87 w/kg.

How did LeMond know this anyway? When did he use a power meter whist racing in his career?

Look at Lemond's handlebar.
He was one of the first pro SRM user in 93-94.
Don't know who's that guy LeMond is smiling at

 

[ToreBear]

la toussuire stage? when evans attacked on the glandon rogers set such a pace that turned the favorites grope into 4 sky riders, nibali, VdB2 and 2 other top 10 favorites which i am not remembering atm from memory.

He did shell a few out on the Glandon, but they all caught up on the downhill before the final climb.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1056304&postcount=6914

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour-de-france/stage-11/results
In the end Rogers finished 18m 31s down.

So I don't see anything earth shattering there. He just spent his energy early.

 

[Ferminal]

From what LeMond has written, 5.9 w/kg for a major climb towards the end of a GT and 6.3 w/kg on a one-off ascent were the limit of what he could achieve, so Roger's 6.2 w/kg towards the end of the Dauphine is neither Pantani-like nor soft-pedalling. Definitely not hanging around.

It's possibly a career best though.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You really think it is unusual for a cyclist to produce some of their best performances in a race as opposed to training?

I am being very careful with the ditraibe you spew, because no, it is not unusual to do PBs in racing vs training, any idiot knows that. You can try and trip me up, but I've spent too much time debunking your bs.

The facts of this PB are very different to simply "racing vs training".

Stage 6 of a PT race, 150km + 2000m into the stage, riding the front group, coming second overall? Yes. I do think that would be unusual. You are a/an <insert derogatory noun of choice> if you think otherwise.

In this race, it's the penultimate and queen stage.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Why are you overcomplicating it? There is no need to use some online calculator. Rogers used a power meter. You don't need to estimate power when its already been measured and in that case you don't include bike weight in the power to weight ratio. If his power was 440w and his weight was 75kg that is 5.87w/kg.

You can't climb a 1000 ascent over 11.7k weighing 75k if you output 440 watts in normal conditions, so either his quoted absolute watts or listed weight are wrong. (Or his listed weight was right when it was listed but he was lighter on the day in question.) You'd need 390 watts just to lift 75kg of rider and 8kg of bike through 1000m, and then there is the horizontal component (approx 50 watts) and transmission losses (typically 5% ie 20 watts) to overcome.

Or (and there always are caveats, it must be admitted):

- The 34:50 relates to a sub-section of the official Joux Plan climb, which would be odd, as the start and the finish are easy points to situate the relevant banners.

- There was a strong net tail-wind

 

[Gregga]

It's possibly a career best though.

Actually, he looked like just doing a tempo.
I guess a career best would look like fighting during a TT or struggling against pain like the hamilton way

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Nope he doesn't say that in the ridemedia interview, so where are you getting that info from?

I have read it, I know. And there are a few other people that have read it and posted it here. I am looking for the link, but cannot find it. RideMedia look like are not indexed by wayback.

If I find it I'll post it, but he rides for a media company, so who knows, right?

 

[Ferminal]

It's possibly a career best though.

"In the stage with the finish in Bergamo, on the Colle del Gallo (6.2 km at 7%, with an altitude between 328 and 763m) we have seen a small group formed by excellent riders such as Garzelli, Cunego, Pellizotti, Horner, Rogers, Leipheimer attack and literally devour the 435m of climbing in 14'11", with a resulting VAM = 1838 m/h, corresponding on such a gradient to an excellent 6.8 w/kg."

http://53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=101

Was poor on Blockhaus and Vesuvio though.

Can't really think of anything else, Roseland in 2007?

Post known relationship with Ferrari in any case.

 

[veganrob]

I am being very careful with the ditraibe you spew, because no, it is not unusual to do PBs in racing vs training, any idiot knows that. You can try and trip me up, but I've spent too much time debunking your bs.

The facts of this PB are very different to simply "racing vs training".

Stage 6 of a PT race, 150km + 2000m into the stage, riding the front group, coming second overall? Yes. I do think that would be unusual. You are a/an <insert derogatory noun of choice> if you think otherwise.

In this race, it's the penultimate and queen stage.

Don't forget that they are working so hard the racing is actually easier than the training.

They were spewing that tripe previously. Okay, whatever..

 

[Caruut]

"In the stage with the finish in Bergamo, on the Colle del Gallo (6.2 km at 7%, with an altitude between 328 and 763m) we have seen a small group formed by excellent riders such as Garzelli, Cunego, Pellizotti, Horner, Rogers, Leipheimer attack and literally devour the 435m of climbing in 14'11", with a resulting VAM = 1838 m/h, corresponding on such a gradient to an excellent 6.8 w/kg."

http://53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=101

Was poor on Blockhaus and Vesuvio though.

Can't really think of anything else, Roseland in 2007?

Post known relationship with Ferrari in any case.

What a list of names there, by the way.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Stage 6 of a PT race, 150km + 2000m into the stage, riding the front group, coming second overall? Yes. I do think that would be unusual. You are a/an <insert derogatory noun of choice> if you think otherwise.

In this race, it's the penultimate and queen stage.

I think the conclusion here depends on how the race and this stage prior to the final climb had gone.

Had the previous days been hilly? If not, then the top guys would have a TT and 4 days of lurking in the bunch in their legs, which is probably not overly tiring, so stirring deeds on day 6 could be expected.

The 150k and 2000m lead up to the Joux Plan is actually pretty tame for the pros. In terms of time, this is equivalent to say 90k and 1200m of climbing for a Weekend Warrior, and if this had been taken steadily, there's no reason to assume a near maximal effort for the final half hour couldn't be produced.

Conversely, if they'd raced flat out all week, including the first part of the 6th stage, then they've have been grovelling up the JP.

 

[Ferminal]

What a list of names there, by the way.

lol, I missed that, well didn't think of it like that.

Amazing.

Within human limits though blablabla, all must be clean.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I think the conclusion here depends on how the race and this stage prior to the final climb had gone.

Had the previous days been hilly? If not, then the top guys would have a TT and 4 days of lurking in the bunch in their legs, which is probably not overly tiring, so stirring deeds on day 6 could be expected.

The 150k and 2000m lead up to the Joux Plan is actually pretty tame for the pros. In terms of time, this is equivalent to say 90k and 1200m of climbing for a Weekend Warrior, and if this had been taken steadily, there's no reason to assume a near maximal effort for the final half hour couldn't be produced.

Conversely, if they'd raced flat out all week, including the first part of the 6th stage, then they've have been grovelling up the JP.

Yep I post above they averaged 39.4km/hr for the 7 stages, giving them a total 1054km for the week - 26 hours racing time.

I'd say it's safe to say they were not cruising the previous stages.

Race went:
Prolog: 5km
Stage 1: Cat 2, 4, 3, 4, 4, 3 for 187km ~40km/hr
Stage 2: Cat 2, 2, 3, 2, 4, 4 for 160km ~40km/hr
Stage 3: Cat 3, 4, 4 for 167km ~39km/hr
Stage 4: 53km TT (Wiggins (1:03) put 34 seconds into Martin after finishing 1:20 behind him in Sept at Worlds) Rogers 3rd at 1:11
Stage 5: Cat 2, HC, 3 for 186km ~40km/hr
Stage 6: Cat 1, 3, 3, 1, 3, HC (PB 34:50) for 166km ~35km/hr
Stage 7: Cat 4, 3, 2, 1, 3 for 126km ~42km/hr

Stage 7:

- Côte de Mijouet, cat. 4, 2.2km at 5.3%, km 39.5
- Col de Cou, cat. 3, 6.6km at 4.4%, km 56
- Côte de la Vernaz, cat. 2, 3.2km at 8.2%, km 89.5
- Col du Corbier, cat. 1, 7.7km at 7.3% (alt. 1230m), km 102
- Châtel, cat. 3, 1.5km at 8.7%, km 124.5

116+290+260+562+130 ~1358m elevation in 126km @ 42km/hr.


Looking at "How it happened" on Stage 6 Up the climb:
Vino dropped
Nibali, dropped
EBH sets the pace (EBH dropped later)
Tony Martin dropped
LL Sanchez dropped
Rolland dropped
Kelderman dropped
Wiggins is in yellow:
13:29:13 BST Wiggins looks so comfortable though. Perhaps he'll attack?

13:31:16 BST 10 riders, four of them from Sky.
Machado dropped

Also keeping in mind - Rogers is domestique, not leader in this race.


Poor Janez, I wonder wtf he was thinking...

1 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Sky Procycling 26:40:46
2 Michael Rogers (Aus) Sky Procycling 0:01:17
3 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 0:01:26
4 Christopher Froome (GBr) Sky Procycling 0:01:45
5 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Lotto Belisol Team 0:02:12
6 Vasil Kiryienka (Blr) Movistar Team 0:02:58
7 Janez Brajkovic (Slo) Astana Pro Team 0:03:07
8 Wilco Kelderman (Ned) Rabobank Cycling Team 0:03:26
9 Richie Porte (Aus) Sky Procycling 0:03:34
10 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Radioshack-Nissan 0:03:50

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Looking at the top 10s final GCs of those mini tours earlier in the year.

Team Sky have totally dominated this season.

 

[MartinGT]

UK Postal, thats all we can say

 

[Krebs cycle]

I am being very careful with the ditraibe you spew, because no, it is not unusual to do PBs in racing vs training, any idiot knows that. You can try and trip me up, but I've spent too much time debunking your bs.

The facts of this PB are very different to simply "racing vs training".

Stage 6 of a PT race, 150km + 2000m into the stage, riding the front group, coming second overall? Yes. I do think that would be unusual. You are a/an <insert derogatory noun of choice> if you think otherwise.

In this race, it's the penultimate and queen stage.

Whatevs, you realize how much of a clown you are so then you revert back into troll mode.

 

[JRanton]

Looking at the top 10s final GCs of those mini tours earlier in the year.

Team Sky have totally dominated this season.

Their CQ team score this year, over 15,000 points, is comfortably the highest ever recorded (going back to 1998)

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I'd say it's safe to say they were not cruising the previous stages.

Poor Janez, I wonder wtf he was thinking...

Sky were certainly there to race properly!

Janez was probably wondering how he could get to ride for Sky next year

 

[Ferminal]

Their CQ team score this year, over 15,000 points, is comfortably the highest ever recorded (going back to 1998)

Keep in mind at the start of the season it was still one of the strongest rosters (on paper) ever.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Sky were certainly there to race properly!

Janez was probably wondering how he could get to ride for Sky next year

Here's avg sped by stage and accumulated:

That's real racing right there.

Janez was wondering what they were on...

 

[the omertà hurts]

No, it is not stupid. Saying anything in the media and then having people defend what has been said is stupid.

So we have to believe it when Brailsford says everyone is clean, but when a rider says "I increased threshold 5%" we ignore it?

When a rider with many, many years of track work says "something about the gears and rolling resistance" we ignore it?


Ignore this:

so when asked for additional evidence rogers has been doping you refer to figures rogers offered in interviews himself? lol.

in the nicest way possible, i'd suggest you do more focused, objective study, more deep analytical thinking and much, much less google fuelled posting. you're not going to 'crack the case' by studying youtube videos then furiously posting your findings =)

check out this guy for inspiration perhaps http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/

 

[thehog]

Here's avg sped by stage and accumulated:

That's real racing right there.

Janez was wondering what they were on...

Whilst dropping known anti-dopers like Scarponi

 

[Caruut]

so when asked for additional evidence rogers has been doping you refer to figures rogers offered in interviews himself? lol.

in the nicest way possible, i'd suggest you do more focused, objective study, more deep analytical thinking and much, much less google fuelled posting. you're not going to 'crack the case' by studying youtube videos then furiously posting your findings =)

check out this guy for inspiration perhaps http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/

Doesn't Brailsford need a coffee fetching or something?