Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[postmanhat]

Andy appears to not have the "inside story" as you seem to accept.

Kimmage was already with Sky before the Tour and it was arranged that he would follow them for the Tour. Yet team Sky pulled the deal. So he then requested that he be allowed talk to Michael Barry, Brailsford refused - which seems an odd thing to when you know that your rider has nothing to hide.

Garmin don't seem to have a problem with the a..hole.

'Tisn't true about Sky 'pulling the deal'. Kimmage did, though he blames Wiggins:

“It was Wiggins specifically who rejected it. I went over to Manchester, I sat down with Brailsford and everything was sorted. I hired a van specifically for the purpose of following them for the Tour,” he told VeloNation. “A day before I was to go to Amsterdam, Fran Millar called me and said there was a problem. I went to Amsterdam, sat down with them and Brailsford said, ‘basically, look, Wiggins is not happy. Is it okay if you pick up the team in eight days time?” I said ‘no, it is from the start or nothing,’ and that is where it was left."

 

[Dear Wiggo]

'Tisn't true about Sky 'pulling the deal'. Kimmage did, though he blames Wiggins:

“It was Wiggins specifically who rejected it. I went over to Manchester, I sat down with Brailsford and everything was sorted. I hired a van specifically for the purpose of following them for the Tour,” he told VeloNation. “A day before I was to go to Amsterdam, Fran Millar called me and said there was a problem. I went to Amsterdam, sat down with them and Brailsford said, ‘basically, look, Wiggins is not happy. Is it okay if you pick up the team in eight days time?” I said ‘no, it is from the start or nothing,’ and that is where it was left."

I read that recently too, and the whole "in 8 days time" business was new information.

And very peculiar, don't you think?

You've just posted it, with no comment, yet when you think about it. WTF difference does it make to Wiggins if it's from the start or 8 days later? Kimmage is still in your face, being abrassive, etc. Why not 5 days, or 10?

The race is won in the second 2 weeks, so what would it matter to Kimmage if he wasn't there for the first 8 days?

But look more closely at the Tour and how it was won. I find it strangely coincidental, given the above is easily disproved by Kimmage and is therefore most likely a true account of the conversation, that it was the 8th day where Wiggins grabbed the jersey. Not sure on the specifics, but it's almost as if they knew Wiggins would be in yellow in 8 day's time, defending rather than having to "win" per se, long before it even happened. (Doping conspiracy: "preparing" for that 8th stage would have happened on the 7th, a day before Kimmage actually comes on board.)

And Wiggins kept the jersey from that point forward, never having to "win" it back. I think they knew he would be able to do that too.

Interviewed: on the 11th, Pat knew Sky were going to be the overall winners, 11 days before the finish of the race.
Theory: before the start, Sky knew Wiggins was going to be in yellow, 8 days into the Tour. I also believe they knew he was going to keep the jersey.

I'm sure it's all just a magical cupcake pooping, unicorn-based coincidence.

 

[Tinman]

Theory: before the start, Sky knew Wiggins was going to be in yellow, 8 days into the Tour. I also believe they knew he was going to keep the jersey.

I'm sure it's all just a magical cupcake pooping, unicorn-based coincidence.

Hammer week one in the TT's, get the fresh bags on rest day, then defend. Still leaves second rest day and associated bag refresh logistics to be considered. What was different logistically between these 2 rest days?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Regardless of doping protocols, I just find it incredible that they KNEW Wiggins was going to be in Yellow on the 8th day, and having Kimmage around after that would not be a problem.

Doping and race fixing (with associated ASO/UCI complicity) are the ONLY guarantees for race performance.

 

[Parker]

The race is won in the second 2 weeks, so what would it matter to Kimmage if he wasn't there for the first 8 days?

But look more closely at the Tour and how it was won. I find it strangely coincidental, given the above is easily disproved by Kimmage and is therefore most likely a true account of the conversation, that it was the 8th day where Wiggins grabbed the jersey. Not sure on the specifics, but it's almost as if they knew Wiggins would be in yellow in 8 day's time, defending rather than having to "win" per se, long before it even happened. (Doping conspiracy: "preparing" for that 8th stage would have happened on the 7th, a day before Kimmage actually comes on board.)

Regardless of doping protocols, I just find it incredible that they KNEW Wiggins was going to be in Yellow on the 8th day, and having Kimmage around after that would not be a problem.

A very interesting theory let down by one small detail - The Kimmage incident was in 2010.

These pesky facts keep getting in your way, don't they?

 

[thehog]

"Here's 56 channels of American Gladiators."

That will keep him awake all night!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

A very interesting theory let down by one small detail - The Kimmage incident was in 2010.

These pesky facts keep getting in your way, don't they?

My bad - kept thinking, as it's in the news so recently, that it was this year. Not 2 years ago.

It still seems strange to me though - why from the 8th day?

 

[postmanhat]

Regardless of doping protocols, I just find it incredible that they KNEW Wiggins was going to be in Yellow on the 8th day, and having Kimmage around after that would not be a problem.

Doping and race fixing (with associated ASO/UCI complicity) are the ONLY guarantees for race performance.

It would all have been extremely suspicious, except...it's the 2010 Tour that Kimmage is talking about.

The eight day delay is a bit odd perhaps if you're minded to go down that route. More likely is that Wiggins simply didn't like Kimmage much at the time, maybe still doesn't? Kimmage has since had his own back by stirring things up in the British gutter press

 

[Dr. Maserati]

'Tisn't true about Sky 'pulling the deal'. Kimmage did, though he blames Wiggins:

“It was Wiggins specifically who rejected it. I went over to Manchester, I sat down with Brailsford and everything was sorted. I hired a van specifically for the purpose of following them for the Tour,” he told VeloNation. “A day before I was to go to Amsterdam, Fran Millar called me and said there was a problem. I went to Amsterdam, sat down with them and Brailsford said, ‘basically, look, Wiggins is not happy. Is it okay if you pick up the team in eight days time?” I said ‘no, it is from the start or nothing,’ and that is where it was left."

Ah, the deal was that PK be allowed follow through the whole Tour, Sky said start on day 8 - thats called pulling the deal.

It would all have been extremely suspicious, except...it's the 2010 Tour that Kimmage is talking about.

The eight day delay is a bit odd perhaps if you're minded to go down that route. More likely is that Wiggins simply didn't like Kimmage much at the time, maybe still doesn't? Kimmage has since had his own back by stirring things up in the British gutter press

Sounds like the "educated guess" that Andy made, before we found out that it wasn't educated.

Why would PKs personality have anything to do with it? No-one in Garmin had a problem - JV has even said PK is welcome back.
Was Pauls personality going to improve in 8 days - was it the time of the month or something?

 

[thehog]

My thoughts on this thread.

A lot of people thinking Sky are doping.
Many are suspicious.
Some are suspicious but want to see more evidence/proof

No one actually thinks they're clean.

That is telling.

 

[martinvickers]

My thoughts on this thread.

A lot of people thinking Sky are doping.
Many are suspicious.
Some are suspicious but want to see more evidence/proof

No one actually thinks they're clean.

That is telling.

I don't think that's true, hog.

Rather, we've all been burnt so many times that we won't categorically state something is clean, because we've learned we can never know.

For the record, I think they are clean, broadly - I have my doubts on Froome, but as a Team? I think so. Basically I find the doping hypothesis that bit lessunlikely than the idea they are simply full of super-doms cause they are so rich.

But I certainly don't know they are clean, and would never pretend otherwise.

I'm well aware that's its just my hunch, and entirely unprovable.

 

[armchairclimber]

I don't think that's true, hog.

Rather, we've all been burnt so many times that we won't categorically state something is clean, because we've learned we can never know.

For the record, I think they are clean, broadly - I have my doubts on Froome, but as a Team? I think so. Basically I find the doping hypothesis that bit lessunlikely than the idea they are simply full of super-doms cause they are so rich.

But I certainly don't know they are clean, and would never pretend otherwise.

I'm well aware that's its just my hunch, and entirely unprovable.

Pretty much my thoughts entirely....though I do know that Wiggins is clean.

 

[bianchigirl]

Why such certainty? Interested as contradicts many things I've heard from inside BC and would like to be reassured

 

[bianchigirl]

Regardless of doping protocols, I just find it incredible that they KNEW Wiggins was going to be in Yellow on the 8th day, and having Kimmage around after that would not be a problem.

Doping and race fixing (with associated ASO/UCI complicity) are the ONLY guarantees for race performance.

Look at the 2010 route - first mountain days stages 7 & 8

Wiggins starts race as top 5 finisher, outside bet to repeat, with 1st mountain stage - where race can be won or lost - on stage 8

Perhaps unsurprising sky would want to prepare for that without kimmage snooping around

 

[Cycle Chic]

Pretty much my thoughts entirely....though I do know that Wiggins is clean.

and I KNOW Valverde is clean.

 

[andy1234]

Ah, the deal was that PK be allowed follow through the whole Tour, Sky said start on day 8 - thats called pulling the deal.


Sounds like the "educated guess" that Andy made, before we found out that it wasn't educated.

Why would PKs personality have anything to do with it? No-one in Garmin had a problem - JV has even said PK is welcome back.Was Pauls personality going to improve in 8 days - was it the time of the month or something?

Dont worry Doc. It is educated.
I know certain staff and riders opinions of Kimmage. I just dont know if they are the reason he isn't being welcomed with open arms.

As far as Garmin not having a problem....
People form their own opinions about other people. I imagine some people like you, but some think you are an a-hole? go figure.


There are many people in the peloton, and their teams, who would prefer Kimmage didn't further his career through them.
Whether this is a part of the decison making process.....?

IMO The tipping point will come if Kimmages opinion becomes important enough to overlook the relationship factor. At the moment it appears it is not.

 

[Ferminal]

and I KNOW Valverde is clean.

Of course he is, the risk of a lifetime ban is too great.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Of course he is, the risk of a lifetime ban is too great.

Not to mention the embarassment to his wife and children should he be caught.

 

[ebandit]

sky vortex

It's like a ghost town in here now.

I call it the Sky vortex.

Everything is going so well then you mention Yates or Froome and the Sky fanboys go 'nannas and disappear.

It's sooooo funny. I mean how do you rationalise those two!

wow! hog not everyone has your conviction ( 14 posts in the sky thread

yesterday.....for a time dear wiggo was catching on post count in the

sky thread............but your back way ahead no 1 sky fan )

you caught some flak yesterday...many questioning your logic etc

shame on such doubters.....should have your conviction .....don't

let facts get in the way of seeing the truth

i agree only a fool would stand up and state that sky are 100% clean

in time obsevers will now better.............keep digging fans deserve to

know

really..............sky could well be clean!

 

[coinneach]

Dont worry Doc. It is educated.
I know certain staff and riders opinions of Kimmage. I just dont know if they are the reason he isn't being welcomed with open arms.

As far as Garmin not having a problem....
People form their own opinions about other people. I imagine some people like you, but some think you are an a-hole? go figure.


There are many people in the peloton, and their teams, who would prefer Kimmage didn't further his career through them.
Whether this is a part of the decison making process.....?

IMO The tipping point will come if Kimmages opinion becomes important enough to overlook the relationship factor. At the moment it appears it is not.

I agree, two key points here:
#1 Would having someone like Kimmage present affect atmosphere / team cohesiveness?
#2 Would a good report by Kimmage change SkyDoubters minds?

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

My thoughts on this thread.

A lot of people thinking Sky are doping.
Many are suspicious.
Some are suspicious but want to see more evidence/proof

No one actually thinks they're clean.

That is telling.

My opinion is that it takes a huge leap of faith to say that any athlete is completely clean. The evidence against Sky is suspicious performance leaps (although some have argued, with some valid reasoning, that those leaps can be explained naturally), staff and riders with dodgy histories and an association with a dodgy doctor. However on the other hand there are no positive tests (although that my be just good planning) and there are no eye witness testimonies or (as far as I know) rumours like there was with Lance. Therefore, IMO there is not enough to say that Sky are doping.

I would love Sky to be clean, just as I'd love all the other teams to be clean, as I want to see clean sport. But I wouldn't be surprised, given the sports past history, if they were all still at it to a greater or lesser extent.

 

[RownhamHill]

My thoughts on this thread.

A lot of people thinking Sky are doping.
Many are suspicious.
Some are suspicious but want to see more evidence/proof

No one actually thinks they're clean.

That is telling.

My thoughts on this thread.

All the 'sky fanboys' think that you're a fool to state with 100% certainty that they are clean, because such a statement is essentially unverifiable with the available evidence.

All the 'sky haters' think that you're a fool if you don't state with 100% certainty that they are dirty, despite the fact that such a statement is essentially unverifiable with the available evidence.

That is telling.

 

[Avoriaz]

I don't think that's true, hog.

Rather, we've all been burnt so many times that we won't categorically state something is clean, because we've learned we can never know.

This.

To make an addition re: Kimmage and the 2010 Tour, it is my understanding that Wiggins went into the Tour incredibly nervous about his form (being dropped by Barry at the Alpine training camp), and therefore wanted a minimum of distraction. Not ideal, but Kimmage was invited, as stated, from stage 8. Why not?

Secondly, very few cyclists have openly criticised Armstrong in the wake of the Tygart report. Indeed, there are threads on this already. Though not alone, Wiggins has gone on record criticising Lance:

Had Armstrong been a hero of his? "No, not really a hero," he says flatly. "He was someone I respected and admired. I've met quite a few sportsmen, but I don't think I've met anybody as… powerful as him." How? "In his persona. He's quite an intimidating person to be around. He has an aura. He doesn't live his life like anybody else in our sport. I sit here now as the winner of the Tour and I don't live my life how he lived his life when he was the winner." How did he live his life? "****ing entourage around him, chauffeur-driven car outside."

The more he talks about Armstrong, the more apparent his contempt

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/02/bradley-wiggins-interview-tour

How did Wiggins feel when the Armstrong report came out? "It wasn't a surprise." It was confirmation? "Yeah. The anger is more: I've got to pick up the pieces. He's still a multimillionaire, and he's not here to answer the questions. I can't not answer them because I've got to go and race next year, and I hate talking about it."

Compare that to those who say they still see Lance as the winner of those 7 Tours de France.

Why hasn't Sky outwardly supported Greg LeMond. Dunno. Why should they?

 

[MatParker117]

My thoughts on this thread.

A lot of people thinking Sky are doping.
Many are suspicious.
Some are suspicious but want to see more evidence/proof

No one actually thinks they're clean.

That is telling.

I think that Team Sky are 100% clean and have seen nothing to convince me otherwise.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Dont worry Doc. It is educated.
I know certain staff and riders opinions of Kimmage. I just dont know if they are the reason he isn't being welcomed with open arms.

As far as Garmin not having a problem....
People form their own opinions about other people. I imagine some people like you, but some think you are an a-hole? go figure.


There are many people in the peloton, and their teams, who would prefer Kimmage didn't further his career through them.
Whether this is a part of the decison making process.....?

IMO The tipping point will come if Kimmages opinion becomes important enough to overlook the relationship factor. At the moment it appears it is not.

The first week of the Tour is traditionally very tense, with the GC contenders very twitchy and desperate to avoid the crashes on the bunched, flat stages. I would say its acceptable for an athlete making a serious tilt for yellow to eliminate distractions. You saw what a grumpy **** Wiggins was for the first half of the 2012 tour, as it went on he visibly relaxed in interviews.

Another red herring IMO, and in 2010 when Brad was poor, unless he just got his programme wrong? JV of course insists he was clean at Garmin the year previously