Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Mrs John Murphy]

And the scenario you choose fits most closely to your ideas. It's called having an opinion, mine differs from yours, it shouldn't be cause for offence.

Note I left out pre-conceived: yours may be but I'm trying to read and learn as much as I can, and draw my conclusions from that. The Ferrari connection via Teide is a dead end in my opinion, and I have already explained why I think that.

Unless I'm mistaken I don't recall claiming with certainty that any of the possible scenarios was the truth or that any case has been proved either way.

Which is why Zhou is your friend.

 

[D-Queued]

My favourite. The "training" is harder than the racing!

The Tour was a push over compared to hanging out in Tenerife.

Froome was certainly evidence that the Tour was much easier than training!

“The training is harder than the racing,” Yates said. “When push comes to shove in a race, on the top of [Col de] Joux Plane, it’s going to be hard, but 99 percent of time the training is harder than the racing.”

Yates is an idiot.

The vast majority of training, like 80% plus, is LSD - long, slow distance at efforts well below anaerobic threshold.

He is dating himself. Nobody stops for a smoke break in the peloton any more.

The only thing dumber than Yates' statement, is when coaches/athletes talk about giving it that extra 10 to 20%. The whole going 110% nonsense.

Apparently, Yates has never heard of race pace. Is Yates suggesting that all those TT performances, final sprints, and sustained breakaways are done at some sort of trotter's pace?

No serious competitor, at any age, does not try their hardest.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

Yates is an idiot.

The vast majority of training, like 80% plus, is LSD - long, slow distance at efforts well below anaerobic threshold.

He is dating himself. Nobody stops for a smoke break in the peloton any more.

The only thing dumber than Yates' statement, is when coaches/athletes talk about giving it that extra 10 to 20%. The whole going 110% nonsense.

Apparently, Yates has never heard of race pace. Is Yates suggesting that all those TT performances, final sprints, and sustained breakaways are done at some sort of trotter's pace?

No serious competitor, at any age, does not try their hardest.

Dave.

You see what I just did?

Wow where did everyone go? This place is a ghost town now! I'm sure a few will be back to tell us that Yates made a mistake

Yates believed all this stuff. He believed because thats the way Lance trained.

You couple all this with the Lance love statements and you get a worrying trend between Wiggins, Yates and Rogers -> Lance.

Problem being Yates is right. When you train with EPO you can "recover" much faster and yes your efforts can be "harder".

Those boys have problems.

 

[Mellow Velo]

People: Paris-Nice is in early March.

Again its not about me.

I've said this several times and provided the links to from Ferrari to Sky.

You can ignore these. I don't mind.

This is factually incorrect. You have provided a 4 point (actually 3 points with Tenerife the middle pint) join the dots exercise.

I've said countless times that Tenerife in isolation has a bad reputation. But you combine this with everything else we know about Sky then it stinks. Stinks like a turd sitting in the sun for days on end.
This is not about me. Its about Sky.

I'm providing a counter opinion and if you don't like it thats ok. I'm not trying to change you.

What I do note that there's several poster beating up on the Sky critics but not a lot of posters (well none) who give us the good reasons why Sky are clean.

This is more truthful.

Counter opinion is how it should be.

You aren't being beaten upon, but offered counter opinion: a different interpretation as to why Sky use Tenerife, albeit a more simplistic one; to train at altitude during mid-winter.
It certainly does not prove that sky are clean.

However, the Ferrari-Bertagnolli-Sky/Wiggins-Tenerife timeline which has been fully linked is sufficiently strong evidence as to make the mere naming of names appear weak in the extreme.

 

[thehog]

People: Paris-Nice is in early March.

This is factually incorrect. You have provided a 4 point (actually 3 points with Tenerife the middle pint) join the dots exercise.

This is more truthful.
Counter opinion is how it should be.

You aren't being beaten upon, but offered counter opinion: a different interpretation as to why Sky use Tenerife, albeit a more simplistic one; to train at altitude during mid-winter.
It certainly does not prove that sky are clean.

However, the Ferrari-Bertagnolli-Sky/Wiggins-Tenerife timeline which has been fully linked is sufficiently strong evidence as to make the mere naming of names appear weak in the extreme.

I have people calling me "ms. hog" another citing the Wiggins crash as something I'd laugh at and taken advantage of... I'd say people are trying to silence me.

I've still not heard anything credible to why "zero tolerance - clean team" trains in Tenerife.

I'll leave it to Sky to tell me why they're clean.

Really these guys are good. Training is harder than racing.

This year, Wiggins and his climber teammates did two-week camps there in April (before the Tour de Romandie) and May (before the Critérium du Dauphiné). On the second of those camps, the riders climbed an estimated 100,000 feet (32,000 meters) in the 14 days. Wiggins said this intensive training “is harder than racing.” Which explains how and why the Sky team was able to climb as such a high level at this Tour.

Kerrison said that in his fourth-place finish at the ’09 Tour (with Garmin-Slipstream), Wiggins could sustain 410 watts for an hour-long climb. At this Tour, he and his teammates Chris Froome, Richie Porte and Michael Rogers, were riding at an estimated 450-watt pace on the major climbs. That’s why the attacks made by Cadel Evans in the Alps and Vincenzo Nibali in the Pyrénées never had a chance of succeeding—because it’s impossible to ride at 500 watts for a whole climb.

 

[ebandit]

ms?

I have people calling me "ms. hog" another citing the Wiggins crash as something I'd laugh at and taken advantage of... I'd say people are trying to silence me.

I've still not heard anything credible to why "zero tolerance - clean team" trains in Tenerife.

I'll leave it to Sky to tell me why they're clean.

Really these guys are good. Training is harder than racing.

sorry! i referred to you as ms hog to which i have apologised in another thread

ms hog seems a civil adress to me but i will in future only use the hog

feel free to call me miss bandit mrs bandit or master bandit as i am not

sexist it is of little consquence

 

[Grandillusion]

Just wondering if Wiggins, Froome or Brailsford, or anyone else from Team Sky have made any public statements in praise of, and solidarity with, Greg LeMond (surely the ultimate clean-riding poster-boy, now heroically vindicated), and Paul Kimmage?

Or public statements strongly critical of McQuaid & Verbruggen?

If not, why not? I would imagine such statements would go some way to assuaging the toxic suspicions whirling around their camp.

I'm aware of Kimmage's recent piece of not so veiled criticism of Team Sky, but a public gesture of solidarity from them at such a trying time for both parties would surely do Sky's reputation no harm? If they had nothing to hide then there would be nothing to lose and a lot to gain.

Or is the toxic suspicion only whirling around the Clinic-cynics' brains & not the general public's?

Apologies if already discussed & dealt with.

 

[armchairclimber]

I only popped into the clinic to get a rash looked at and now I can't get out.

 

[D-Queued]

You see what I just did?

Wow where did everyone go? This place is a ghost town now! I'm sure a few will be back to tell us that Yates made a mistake

Yates believed all this stuff. He believed because thats the way Lance trained.

You couple all this with the Lance love statements and you get a worrying trend between Wiggins, Yates and Rogers -> Lance.

Problem being Yates is right. When you train with EPO you can "recover" much faster and yes your efforts can be "harder".

Those boys have problems.

Yes, I see what you just did.

Cycling really is a ghost town.

And, with morons like Yates out there, along with idiots like Benoit saying he wished he doped and doping hotlines that will connect you directly to the drug pushers, it is no wonder.

The sport has earned itself a deaf ear. It isn't even worth fanboy support any more.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

Just wondering if Wiggins, Froome or Brailsford, or anyone else from Team Sky have made any public statements in praise of, and solidarity with, Greg LeMond (surely the ultimate clean-riding poster-boy, now heroically vindicated), and Paul Kimmage?

Or public statements strongly critical of McQuaid & Verbruggen?

If not, why not? I would imagine such statements would go some way to assuaging the toxic suspicions whirling around their camp.

I'm aware of Kimmage's recent piece of not so veiled criticism of Team Sky, but a public gesture of solidarity from them at such a trying time for both parties would surely do Sky's reputation no harm? If they had nothing to hide then there would be nothing to lose and a lot to gain.

Or is the toxic suspicion only whirling around the Clinic-cynics' brains & not the general public's?

Apologies if already discussed & dealt with.

Wiggins has praised the UCI for their anti-doping efforts.

He loves Lance as well. 500 tests.

He thinks Landis is a drunk.



All whilst training in Tenerife!

 

[Grandillusion]

Wiggins has praised the UCI for their anti-doping efforts.

He loves Lance as well. 500 tests.

He thinks Landis is a drunk.



All whilst training in Tenerife!

Yep I know. Just wondered why such self-professed clean paragons aren't bending over backwards now to ally themselves now with the heroic good-guys.

Even if they had to swallow a little bit of pride in the Kimmage dept. They'd look good.

 

[thehog]

Yep I know. Just wondered why such self-professed clean paragons aren't bending over backwards now to ally themselves now with the heroic good-guys.

Even if they had to swallow a little bit of pride in the Kimmage dept. They'd look good.

Even through gritted teeth they could praise. But you know Sky are clean. Their riding proves that so they're already doing all they can.

Maybe by having those representatives on he UCI board lets them know what an excellent job the UCI are doing.

 

[RownhamHill]

I don't expect you to understand. That's because you don't want to understand.

The thing is I really do want to understand. It's just, erm, I don't.

I've said countless times that Tenerife in isolation has a bad reputation. But you combine this with everything else we know about Sky then it stinks. Stinks like a turd sitting in the sun for days on end.

If you want to eat that turd then good. I'm not going to stop you. But I warn you it will eventually taste bad. Very bad.

Alas. If you wish to believe that Sky are clean because they've never tested positive etc. thats fine. I'm not here to burst that bubble. If it feels good that the local heroes are clean thats ok as well.

I don't believe Sky are clean. That said, I don't believe they're dirty either. I can see the possibility of both outcomes being true, and I don't know either way, as I have real way of making a judgement. I don't really care either way to be honest - I would be dissappointed if they turn out to be dirty for a number of reasons, but I wouldn't be particularly surprised

This is not about me. Its about Sky.

I'm providing a counter opinion and if you don't like it thats ok. I'm not trying to change you.

The thing is, in all honesty, it is about you really. Reading the Clinic, and the latest (seemingly to me) logical contortions that posters like you and Dear Wiggo et al will tie yourselves up in to try and prove your omniscient, celestial knowledge is just really, really funny. I feel like Mary Whitehouse must have done - on one hand I'm appalled by some of the rubbish that gets posted here as fact, but on the other hand I can't help but enjoy it and keep watching, spending far more time in here than I would like.

What I do note that there's several poster beating up on the Sky critics but not a lot of posters (well none) who give us the good reasons why Sky are clean. That to me is telling (maybe someone can start a thread - why Sky are clean?).

We just get told "because they are" - I need to check the calendar because it could be 1999 again

I'm not beating you up. If you feel that way I'm truly sorry. I would like you to engage with the implications of your own logic at times, moreso than you seem willing to do.

Personally I've never told anyone that Sky are clean. I could certainly make an argument why I think they might be clean - lack of meaningful competion this year, defensive riding to maximise team strengths, team resources applied with one goal in mind, estimated power outputs within in the bounds of the probable for the winner of the tour de france etc etc - but I can also recognise that they might be dirty - because they, ermm, won. In all honesty the only posters I can remember arguing that they definitely are clean 'because they are' were Gooner (and I might be wrong about that, and in any case he has certainly changed his position on that since he's been posting here), and JV1973 - who is a drive-by poster at the best of times, and has also stated that he doesn't care either way and hopes if they are dirty they get caught (and what insight or expertise does he bring anyway, right?).

And yet. The MO you describe - poster x states something, poster y asks for clarification/points our flaws in the logic, poster x replies by stating his points are right 'because they are' - does sound familiar. Very familiar.

I've said countless times that Tenerife in isolation has a bad reputation. But you combine this with everything else we know about Sky then it stinks. Stinks like a turd sitting in the sun for days on end.

 

[andy1234]

Yep I know. Just wondered why such self-professed clean paragons aren't bending over backwards now to ally themselves now with the heroic good-guys.Even if they had to swallow a little bit of pride in the Kimmage dept. They'd look good.

Because aside from being on the heroic good guy team, some of those guys are still a$$holes ?

 

[Hugh Januss]

.



I don't believe Sky are clean. That said, I don't believe they're dirty either. I can see the possibility of both outcomes being true, and I don't know either way, as I have real way of making a judgement. I don't really care either way to be honest - I would be dissappointed if they turn out to be dirty for a number of reasons, but I wouldn't be particularly surprised

Well at least you're not afraid to speak-up and take a stand.

 

[thehog]

The thing is I really do want to understand. It's just, erm, I don't.

I don't believe Sky are clean. That said, I don't believe they're dirty either. I can see the possibility of both outcomes being true, and I don't know either way, as I have real way of making a judgement. I don't really care either way to be honest - I would be dissappointed if they turn out to be dirty for a number of reasons, but I wouldn't be particularly surprised


The thing is, in all honesty, it is about you really. Reading the Clinic, and the latest (seemingly to me) logical contortions that posters like you and Dear Wiggo et al will tie yourselves up in to try and prove your omniscient, celestial knowledge is just really, really funny. I feel like Mary Whitehouse must have done - on one hand I'm appalled by some of the rubbish that gets posted here as fact, but on the other hand I can't help but enjoy it and keep watching, spending far more time in here than I would like.
I'm not beating you up. If you feel that way I'm truly sorry. I would like you to engage with the implications of your own logic at times, moreso than you seem willing to do.

Personally I've never told anyone that Sky are clean. I could certainly make an argument why I think they might be clean - lack of meaningful competion this year, defensive riding to maximise team strengths, team resources applied with one goal in mind, estimated power outputs within in the bounds of the probable for the winner of the tour de france etc etc - but I can also recognise that they might be dirty - because they, ermm, won. In all honesty the only posters I can remember arguing that they definitely are clean 'because they are' were Gooner (and I might be wrong about that, and in any case he has certainly changed his position on that since he's been posting here), and JV1973 - who is a drive-by poster at the best of times, and has also stated that he doesn't care either way and hopes if they are dirty they get caught (and what insight or expertise does he bring anyway, right?).
.

I think you're agreeing with me but you just don't get my reasoning.

I can live with that. You're just keeping an open mind. And thats cool with the Hog.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Yep I know. Just wondered why such self-professed clean paragons aren't bending over backwards now to ally themselves now with the heroic good-guys.

Even if they had to swallow a little bit of pride in the Kimmage dept. They'd look good.

If Sky allied themselves with Kimmage then thehog would be straight on to them for joining forces with a confessed doper.

 

[thehog]

If Sky allied themselves with Kimmage then thehog would be straight on to them for joining forces with a confessed doper.

No one speaks for theHog. I know you want to depict me in this manner. Just like you guys pretend crashes are funny or make sexist remarks.

I would see it as an open step for clean cycling.

I'd be praise of it.

Besides Sky already tried that and Wiggins didn't want Kimmidge on the team.

 

[RownhamHill]

__

Quote:
Wiggins traveled to the Spanish island off the west coast of Africa twice this year, each time for two weeks. He just returned one week ago from his last trip. Yates accompanied Great Britain’s Tour hope on the first occasion this year, staying and training in a remote hotel at 2165 meters elevation. It’s the only hotel on Pico de Teide or the Peak of Teide, the highest point in Spain.

“You have altitude, which is supposed to lift your hemoglobin, but it’s more the fact that the hotel is superb, the food is superb, the terrain is the best, the amount of climbing you can do is phenomenal,” said Yates. “There’s no distractions. It’s eat, sleep, ride a bike.”

Wiggins placed fourth at the Tour with Garmin in 2009 and joined Sky over that winter. In 2010, he only managed 24th overall and started to think about what to change. He’d never trained at altitude before and after some research, decided on Tenerife. The results were amazing.

He won the time trial in Bayern Rundfhart and won the overall in the Critérium du Dauphiné in 2011. A crash and broken collarbone at the Tour meant that he had to abandon, but he came back and placed third in the Vuelta a España, took silver in the time trial at the world championships and helped Mark Cavendish to the road race win.

This year Wiggins has been even better, riding as a leader to overall wins at Paris-Nice and the Tour de Romandie.

His helpers – Chris Froome, Richie Porte, Michael Rogers, Kanstantsin Siutsou and Christian Knees – have traveled with him and benefited. Rogers won the Bayern Rundfhart overall a week ago, Porte won the Volta ao Algarve in February and Froome was second in the Vuelta last year.

“The training is harder than the racing,” Yates said. “When push comes to shove in a race, on the top of [Col de] Joux Plane, it’s going to be hard, but 99 percent of time the training is harder than the racing.”

Wiggins is not the only rider to benefit from altitude training. Several teams travel to Tenerife, while others train at Mount Etna and the Stelvio Pass in Italy. Alejandro Valverde and Movistar trained in Spain’s Sierra Nevada last month and this week, Garmin-Barracuda’s Christian Vande Velde is training in Colorado.

“I guess Lance [Armstrong] was the pioneer in training to race,” said Yates, who raced with Armstrong. “In a grand tour environment, you can train to be good. It’s not the same as the classics, where you have to be in the mix, you have to know the cobbles. In an event like this [Dauphiné] or a grand tour, if you’re going for GC, it’s all about being able to climb, being rested, being trained up and ready. That environment is perfect for that.”

He's right - those results are amazing!

Right. Again I'm going to try and engage with your logic. So your implication here is that Wiggins results have transformed since visiting Tenerife. Right? Which is code for 'started a massive blood doping/epo programme, right? And the DS blithely talking about this in an interview, citing 'amazing results' is essentially Team Sky trolling the world's media, right? And because Ferrari has used Tenerife a lot, and because Yates used to work with one of Ferrari's clients, and someone else on the Team has also been seen with him, then by definition Ferrari must also be involved in this new programme.

Is that correct so far?

So that implies Wiggins wasn't doping before visiting Tenerife in 2011. Or at least much less effectively before.

So how did he come third in the Tour in 2009, and how did he win all those track medals? Was he clean for those results?

And what's more, if he could come third in the Tour clean, then doesn't that imply he could have won the Tour in 2009 clean if the two people who beat him had stayed at home (say with an injury and a drugs ban, for example)? Oh wait. . . something here doesn't compute.

Can you, honestly, not see why I'm confused by the fervour with which you make the claims you do?

Anyway, it's all jokes. I'm off home for the night. . .

 

[Grandillusion]

Because aside from being on the heroic good guy team, some of those guys are still a$$holes ?

What, Greg LeMond? Jeez, he comes across to me as a model of integrity, honesty and reasonableness.

Kimmage seems a bit irascible and I can see how he'd wind some people up a bit, but a**hole seems rather extreme.

Anyway, just interested.

 

[RownhamHill]

I think you're agreeing with me but you just don't get my reasoning.

I can live with that. You're just keeping an open mind. And thats cool with the Hog.

The second bit I can live with.

The first bit, well. . . I can state with some degree of certainty that I am not agreeing with you.

 

[Grandillusion]

No one speaks for theHog. I know you want to depict me in this manner. Just like you guys pretend crashes are funny or make sexist remarks.

I would see it as an open step for clean cycling.

I'd be praise of it.

Besides Sky already tried that and Wiggins didn't want Kimmidge on the team.

I'm talking about after that rebuff from Wiggins. Like any recent public noises of sympathy and solidarity for the sore-oppressed clean warriors?

Pretty sure I've heard of none.

 

[Hugh Januss]

What, Greg LeMond? Jeez, he comes across to me as a model of integrity, honesty and reasonableness.

Kimmage seems a bit irascible and I can see how he'd wind some people up a bit, but a**hole seems rather extreme.

Anyway, just interested.

A$$hole in his book means "spoke out against Lance before it was cool".

 

[Grandillusion]

A$$hole in his book means "spoke out against Lance before it was cool".

Ok, got it

 

[andy1234]

Ok, got it

No, neither of you "got it"