Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dr. Maserati]

Actually it says 'involvement' rather than 'association'

I checked it - involvement it is.

Why would a rider have an involvement with the most notorious doping Doctor in sport?

 

[martinvickers]

But we were told that, just as Travis Tygart will tell you, eyewitness accounts are evidence.

Tygart's witnesses were eye witnesses of doping itself. They were there as Armstrong discussed doping, did doping, hid doping materials.


These guys saw Rogers do none of these things. They saw him in the company of a dodgy doctor, but that is ALL they saw, or all they have said they saw. Sadly.

Now, if he was with that doctor at a time when it was 'an offence' to be with that doctor, throw the book at him. but otherwise, while it is clearly grounds for suspicion and investigation, it's not enough.

If Sky tried to fire him on that basis he'd skin them alive.

 

[Krebs cycle]

My god! T-Mobile Freiburg boy is innocent!

Nothing to see here move along.

Not in all my days have I heard Rogers defended as clean. You heard it first.

Bob Stapleton declared Rogers clean in 2007. I guess that explains why everything you post comes across as if you were a 4yr old..... you really are

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Tygart's witnesses were eye witnesses of doping itself. They were there as Armstrong discussed doping, did doping, hid doping materials.


These guys saw Rogers do none of these things. They saw him in the company of a dodgy doctor, but that is ALL they saw, or all they have said they saw. Sadly.

Now, if he was with that doctor at a time when it was 'an offence' to be with that doctor, throw the book at him. but otherwise, while it is clearly grounds for suspicion and investigation, it's not enough.

If Sky tried to fire him on that basis he'd skin them alive.

But for a team that prides itself on attention to detail, and for a team that allegedly had a zero tolerance policy on doping, you'd think that signing him in the first place is a discrepancy, no?

His very hiring throws up huge question marks about the honesty of Team Sky. As Jimmy pointed out, you get seen coming out of a brothel at 3am, while you can say nobody saw you actually doing anything, the chances that you aren't up to no good are pretty slim.

If I was putting together a team with the basis that it had to have no links to doping whatsoever, I'd put Juanjo Cobo in the team before Mick Rogers. There's less substantiated rumour about him.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Bob Stapleton declared Rogers clean in 2007. I guess that explains why everything you post comes across as if you were a 4yr old..... you really are

In 2007?
Bob did not do the PR BS stuff of Sky saying no-one "involved" with doping.

Rogers went to see Ferrari the most notorious doping doctor probably in sporting history....... for training?

 

[Tinman]

and I care about evidence. I don't like whitewashes. and I don't like witchhunts.

I defend the fairness of the process. You seem to think the process exists to vindicate your suspicions.

The high school ***** club in here; not really improving much.

my 2c

Martin this is the Clinic, not the courtroom. Are you sure you are in the right place?

 

[RHRH19861986]

Bob Stapleton declared Rogers clean in 2007.

Yeah, or rather Stapleton issued that Sinkewitz and Rogers admitted to having worked with Ferrari, and agreed to stop this.

I once saw a nice group photo, with Ferrari, few hobby riders apparently coached by the doc, and some pros. Amongst these, there was Sinkewitz, don´t remember the others, but one of them wore a Discovery Channel kit, I think it was Danielson. I´ll go searching for the pic and will post the link in case I find it.

It´s even been posted here on CN. I swear I saw it yrs before.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=2801&page=2

Hey, this might be a smack to JV´s face... Tommy D seems to LOVE working with Ferrari

 

[Krebs cycle]

In 2007?
Bob did not do the PR BS stuff of Sky saying no-one "involved" with doping.

Rogers went to see Ferrari the most notorious doping doctor probably in sporting history....... for training?

"What we know is that Rogers was part of a very strictly controlled anti-doping program in 2007, and that he has complied entirely with our own anti-doping rules," Stapleton told Die Welt.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/tm...inkewitz-claims/2007/11/01/1193619042013.html


It's easy to hang a cyclist in the clinic, but who cares? The clinic has no influence in pro cycling. If cycling is going to get cleaner then there needs to be a proper legal framework to deal with doping accusations and "attended a training camp" simply won't cut it any court or tribunal. As martinvickers said above, he would skin them alive if Sky tried to fire him on those grounds and same goes for any anti-doping authority that tried to ban him on such weak evidence. If Leiphemer was prepared to spill the beans on Lance, why hasn't he done the same on Rogers? Real evidence would be eyewitness testimony that Rogers admitted to doping or was involved in doping or was in possession of PEDs or received PEDs or whatever.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

"What we know is that Rogers was part of a very strictly controlled anti-doping program in 2007, and that he has complied entirely with our own anti-doping rules," Stapleton told Die Welt.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/tm...inkewitz-claims/2007/11/01/1193619042013.html

In 2007, we covered this already.
(Doesnt say anything about previous years!!)

It's easy to hang a cyclist in the clinic, but who cares? The clinic has no influence in pro cycling. If cycling is going to get cleaner then there needs to be a proper legal framework to deal with doping accusations and "attended a training camp" simply won't cut it any court or tribunal. As martinvickers said above, he would skin them alive if Sky tried to fire him on those grounds and same goes for any anti-doping authority that tried to ban him on such weak evidence. If Leiphemer was prepared to spill the beans on Lance, why hasn't he done the same on Rogers? Real evidence would be eyewitness testimony that Rogers admitted to doping or was involved in doping or was in possession of PEDs or received PEDs or whatever.

Don't blame the Clinic - (and then turn around and say it has no influence) for this mess.

Sky were the ones to push this (IMO PR BS) on "us".
They are the ones who decided on their standard - twice actually - and only acted when their BS was called out.
They had no "evidence" on Jullich - and if he is lying that in itself is grounds for breaking any contract.

 

[RHRH19861986]

Regarding Rogers, the story seems clear. He´s had a bad reputation all over his career.

Who was it, I think Mike Creed, who already accused him of taking PEDs already when riding against him in the U23 categories.

Rogers has become weaker and less consistent throughout the years since 2005, but I don´t think that´s due to having stopped PEDs, it´s rather his EBV thing. But hey, he was never positive, and never will be able to regret not t have worked with Ferrari.

 

[thehog]

Bob Stapleton declared Rogers clean in 2007. I guess that explains why everything you post comes across as if you were a 4yr old..... you really are

The same guy who hired Hincapie in 2007?

You're too funny. Just too funny.

So i assume when you lose a CAS case you appeal to the court of Bob Stapleton and he'll declare you clean or not?

 

[Krebs cycle]

In 2007, we covered this already.
(Doesnt say anything about previous years!!)

If there was stronger evidence from 2006 than Sinkewitz's claim in addition to Rogers' own admission that he attended a Ferrari organised training camp, you'd think that some diligent journalist or investigator would have found it by now. The Freiburg incident was investigated by German anti-doping authorities wasn't it? How is it that Rogers got off scott free in that investigation but the others didn't?

 

[thehog]

If there was stronger evidence from 2006 than Sinkewitz's claim in addition to Rogers' own admission that he attended a Ferrari organised training camp, you'd think that some diligent journalist or investigator would have found it by now. The Freiburg incident was investigated by German anti-doping authorities wasn't it? How is it that Rogers got off scott free in that investigation but the others didn't?

What like Kloden? How he got punished?

Wonderful. This is just brilliant. You'll be defending Satan soon!

 

[sittingbison]

If there was stronger evidence from 2006 than Sinkewitz's claim in addition to Rogers' own admission that he attended a Ferrari organised training camp, you'd think that some diligent journalist or investigator would have found it by now. The Freiburg incident was investigated by German anti-doping authorities wasn't it? How is it that Rogers got off scott free in that investigation but the others didn't?

krebs you have completely lost the plot with this post, its ignore the last 15 years of degradation and corruption in professional cycling. What diligent journo? Anthony Tan? Mike Tomalaris? in 2005? Get a grip.

And the Freiburg "investigation" was laughable, coming to a halt when Kloden utilised the peculiar German custom of paying a fee. To get off scot free. From memory 30k euro.

Ill say it again, Levi knew exactly what he was saying. He did not name Dodger as attending that Ferrari camp with Vino Kaschekin et all bu accident. Anybody who thinks otherwise is gullible or being knowingly obtuse

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If there was stronger evidence from 2006 than Sinkewitz's claim in addition to Rogers' own admission that he attended a Ferrari organised training camp, you'd think that some diligent journalist or investigator would have found it by now. The Freiburg incident was investigated by German anti-doping authorities wasn't it? How is it that Rogers got off scott free in that investigation but the others didn't?

The blue seems a rhetorical question - so, how many were banned from that investigation? You can use both sides of the screen.

So, which diligent journalist or investigator highlighted Jullichs doping?

 

[RHRH19861986]

In Germany, it was all just noise from the TV broadcast and media in general, from June 30th 2006 until actually October 2008. Media loved Ulle and T-Mobile and so on, and when all came out, felt disappointed, and started to destroy what they loved.

German authorities and judges didn´t give a f. about Freiburg, and zero about Ferrari. There was investigation, yes, Ulle had to pay little money, and so had Peve and Klöden. Heinrich and Schmidt may still work as doctors, also had to ay little money. Now, everything is quiet again.

German investigators didn´t find out anything important, with exception of Sinkewitz´ bad transfusion in week 1 of 2006´s Tour.

For example, one of the main accusations (MAIN!) against Professor Schmidt was to have sold five syringes of EPO to Christian Werner, who maybe was Number 27 amongst 30 riders on the team for some years.

Yeah, if I remember correctly, Rogers was found out to have been part of the "Rhein Convoy" in July 2006, together with Sinkewitz, Klöden, and Kessler.

 

[Ferminal]

I'm glad no one ever doped at High Road, not a single one.

 

[thehog]

I'm glad no one ever doped at High Road, not a single one.

Only Wiggins did

 

[Ferminal]

Rogers has become weaker and less consistent throughout the years since 2005, but I don´t think that´s due to having stopped PEDs, it´s rather his EBV thing. But hey, he was never positive, and never will be able to regret not t have worked with Ferrari.

I'm not so sure. His ITT may have fallen away in patches as he became more of a stage racer, but some of his best results have come since then. In the lead group at Beijing, 8th in the Giro 2009 (his best GT result to date), 2010 podiumed many stage races likewise this year including 2nd in the Dauphine.

Before then it was just the Worlds ITTs and Deutschland?

 

[Krebs cycle]

krebs you have completely lost the plot with this post, its ignore the last 15 years of degradation and corruption in professional cycling. What diligent journo? Anthony Tan? Mike Tomalaris? in 2005? Get a grip.

And the Freiburg "investigation" was laughable, coming to a halt when Kloden utilised the peculiar German custom of paying a fee. To get off scot free. From memory 30k euro.

Ill say it again, Levi knew exactly what he was saying. He did not name Dodger as attending that Ferrari camp with Vino Kaschekin et all bu accident. Anybody who thinks otherwise is gullible or being knowingly obtuse

Dear me, you guys would send a man to the electric chair based on the eyewitness testimony of a half blind demented 95yr old watching a murder take place on a dark and stormy night from 300m away after emerging drunk from a pub. Everyone has hung quartered and drawn Rogers but on what? What evidence is there beyond "attended a Ferrari training camp" and Sinkewitz says so?? did Sinkewtiz specifically name Rogers or did he just say "several teammates"??

I think you guys totally misrepresent my position in these debates. I am not arguing that Rogers is clean, do you understand that? I am saying that I don't know if Rogers doped in 2006 because the evidence is not strong enough for me to make an informed judgment. Evidently, it hasn't been strong enough either for any pro cycling team, nor the UCI, nor WADA, nor ASADA, nor the german anti-doping authorities in the 6yrs since. If you do a search on it, the only thing that comes up is the smh article where Bob Stapleton throws his support behind Rogers, various articles which report the UCI clears Rogers, and of course pages from this forum where everyone is 100% convinced Rogers is guilty.

If there is more evidence floating around like eyewitness testimony that he had PEDs in his possession, or bought them or was actually named by someone other than Sinkewtiz (ie: someone who can verify those claims), or paid a "fee" like Kloden then please post links.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Dear me, you guys would send a man to the electric chair based on the eyewitness testimony of a half blind demented 95yr old watching a murder take place on a dark and stormy night from 300m away after emerging drunk from a pub. Everyone has hung quartered and drawn Rogers but on what? What evidence is there beyond "attended a Ferrari training camp" and Sinkewitz says so?? did Sinkewtiz specifically name Rogers or did he just say "several teammates"??

I think you guys totally misrepresent my position in these debates. I am not arguing that Rogers is clean, do you understand that? I am saying that I don't know if Rogers doped in 2006 because the evidence is not strong enough for me to make an informed judgment. Evidently, it hasn't been strong enough either for any pro cycling team, nor the UCI, nor WADA, nor ASADA, nor the german anti-doping authorities in the 6yrs since. If you do a search on it, the only thing that comes up is the smh article where Bob Stapleton throws his support behind Rogers, various articles which report the UCI clears Rogers, and of course pages from this forum where everyone is 100% convinced Rogers is guilty.

If there is more evidence floating around like eyewitness testimony that he had PEDs in his possession, or bought them or was actually named by someone other than Sinkewtiz (ie: someone who can verify those claims), or paid a "fee" like Kloden then please post links.

A lot of straw in this post.
Again - no-one here convicts people, Rogers does not need to decide on his last meal.

Sky, Team Sky decided they would have a zero tolerance approach.
Team Sky have been caught lying. Nothing more to it than that.
Team Sky set what the criteria is - not anyone here.

 

[Krebs cycle]

A lot of straw in this post.
Again - no-one here convicts people, Rogers does not need to decide on his last meal.

Sky, Team Sky decided they would have a zero tolerance approach.
Team Sky have been caught lying. Nothing more to it than that.
Team Sky set what the criteria is - not anyone here.

Not really. You've got mass hysteria in this thread that "Rogers MUST go" and yet not a single one of you can come up with anything better than "went to a Ferrari training camp" and Sinkewitz says "teammates doped" without specifically even naming Rogers.

The strawman arguments doc are the bits about Kloden not getting banned. But so what? You've got the UCI declaring Rogers not to be involved, Bob Stapleton saying that he gives Rogers the benefit of the doubt and surely you would expect that he must have spoken to both Sinkewitz and the doctors involved behind closed doors. As a result Rogers is the only one out of all of them (Kessler, Mazzolini, Honchar etc) who kept his contract after t-mobile pulled its sponsorship (which is what I meant by getting off "scott free"). So either nobody confessed a damn thing to Bob Stapleton or he is flat out lying.

 

[BroDeal]

Anybody who thinks otherwise is gullible or being knowingly obtuse

I am going for knowingly obtuse, but it hard to easily dismiss flat out obtuse. The next thing you know he'll pretend that people have not been calling out Menchov for years.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Not really. You've got mass hysteria in this thread that "Rogers MUST go" and yet not a single one of you can come up with anything better than "went to a Ferrari training camp" and Sinkewitz says "teammates doped" without specifically even naming Rogers.

Mass hysteria......... where exactly - do I bring a flaming torch or will one be provided?

Very simple - I am using Teams Sky policy.

The strawman arguments doc are the bits about Kloden not getting banned. But so what? You've got the UCI declaring Rogers not to be involved, Bob Stapleton saying that he gives Rogers the benefit of the doubt and surely you would expect that he must have spoken to both Sinkewitz and the doctors involved behind closed doors. As a result Rogers is the only one out of all of them (Kessler, Mazzolini, Honchar etc) who kept his contract after t-mobile pulled its sponsorship (which is what I meant by getting off "scott free"). So either nobody confessed a damn thing to Bob Stapleton or he is flat out lying.

The who? The UCI declared him not involved?? The UCI??
You have no idea what Stapleton did or did not find out - most got cleared out before Sinkerwitz spoke out.

 

[sittingbison]

... nor the UCI, nor WADA, nor ASADA, nor the german anti-doping authorities in the 6yrs since. ...various articles which report the UCI clears Rogers...

...You've got the UCI declaring Rogers not to be involved...As a result Rogers is the only one out of all of them (Kessler, Mazzolini, Honchar etc) who kept his contract after t-mobile pulled its sponsorship...

you really don't get it krebs.

First you said cycling journos (Anthiny Tan anyone? Mike Tomalaris?) would have turned something up, when its the complete abject failure of cycling journos to do any investigation on any doping for 15 years that has largely allowed cycling into this mess.

now you are claiming the UCI would have found Rogers out. WTF? You mean the same UCI that Tygart showed had only found ONE of the TWENTY podium dopers during Armstrongs era guilty? Hein and McQuaid? I must admit I had a laugh at that.

And WADA? Well every time Pound tried to focus the spotlight on cycling, that very same UCI sued him. And refused to co-operate with any WADA initiative, including not signing the code until 2006 after Armstrong retired. And not allowing control of the ABP to WADA, or even the data.

And what do you expect the Germans ADA to do when Kloden can happily pay the investigators a 30k fee to stop the investigation?

Talk about obtuse. This is professional cycling in 2005 we are talking about. Ferrari has just been found guilty and banned by the Italians (remember LA chasing down Simeoni in 2004 for testifying). Levi is on Tenerife with Ferrari TO DOPE. He has no need to mention anybody else (omerta ring a bell?), or at a pinch he could dob in Vino and Kashechkin et al as known dopers for some street cred. Yet knowing full well what would be the ramifications he lumps Dodger in with the filthy blood doping swine.

Now the point of all this is NOT to find Dodger guilty of doping, it is to demonstrate he is unsuitable to be on clean Team Sky with their zero tolerance policy. Both before and after Brailsfords affidavit scheme.