Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[ebandit]

There is no doubt it was not confined to Sky, that the peloton will still be on it.

there is much doubt even within the clinic no-one is sure..........you write

there is no doubt but supporting evidence is lacking

it is quite possible that sky have doped i hope in time to find the truth

but for now if i read hog wash i will point out that it is empty rhetoric

 

[ebandit]

there is no doubt i'm tellin' ya

No doubt he doped. No doubt Wiggins doped. No doubt Froome doped. there is no doubt.

there is much doubt even within the clinic no-one is sure..........you write

there is no doubt but supporting evidence is lacking

it is quite possible that sky have doped i hope in time to find the truth

but for now if i read hog wash i will point out that it is empty rhetoric

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Eyewitness statements are direct evidence, not hearsay.

I don't care, unless there is EVIDENCE of doping. Then boot the bast*rd.

So we have eyewitness accounts of blood doping

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/tm...inkewitz-claims/2007/11/01/1193619042013.html

Leipheimer affidavit - note page 9.

For context, Rogers was at a camp alongside Levi Leipheimer (confessed doper), Alexander Vinokourov and Andriy Kashechkin (known and caught dopers) and Yaroslav Popovych (a long-suspected doper whose PC was raided). This was in May 2005, when Leipheimer was doping, Vino and probably Kashechkin were doping, and Popo had been in the top 5 of the Giro the previous two years. You tell me, was he going there to exchange carbonara recipes?

For further context, Filippo Pozzato is currently banned for using Dr. Ferrari. CONI have just issued a request for bans for Michele Scarponi and Giovanni Visconti for the same reason.

Personally, I consider that, if eyewitness accounts are legit evidence, Mick Rogers should have been kicked out of Sky and the fact that he was there in the first place was evidence that the 'zero tolerance' policy deserves the inverted commas I just gave it.

 

[ebandit]

rogers

Leipheimer affidavit - note page 9.

For context, Rogers was at a camp alongside Levi Leipheimer (confessed doper), Alexander Vinokourov and Andriy Kashechkin (known and caught dopers) and Yaroslav Popovych (a long-suspected doper whose PC was raided). This was in May 2005, when Leipheimer was doping, Vino and probably Kashechkin were doping, and Popo had been in the top 5 of the Giro the previous two years. You tell me, was he going there to exchange carbonara recipes?

For further context, Filippo Pozzato is currently banned for using Dr. Ferrari. CONI have just issued a request for bans for Michele Scarponi and Giovanni Visconti for the same reason.

Personally, I consider that, if eyewitness accounts are legit evidence, Mick Rogers should have been kicked out of Sky and the fact that he was there in the first place was evidence that the 'zero tolerance' policy deserves the inverted commas I just gave it.

so rogers should be sacked because of the actions of another rider?

i believe rogers has signed to say that he never doped............how could

sky be entitled to take action until doping is proven?

 

[Netserk]

so rogers should be sacked because of the actions of another rider?

i believe rogers has signed to say that he never doped............how could

sky be entitled to take action until doping is proven?

Reasonable suspicion is enough to give him the kick AFAIK.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Leipheimer's affidavit states he, Popovych, Kashechkin, Vinokourov and Rogers were at a camp with Ferrari as coach in May 2005. Ferrari was given a suspended prison sentence and banned from acting as a doctor for 11 months in October 2004.

While we may not be able to expressly ping Rogers... there's certainly enough to say that he belongs nowhere anywhere near a "zero tolerance" team.

 

[MatParker117]

Leipheimer's affidavit states he, Popovych, Kashechkin, Vinokourov and Rogers were at a camp with Ferrari as coach in May 2005. Ferrari was given a suspended prison sentence and banned from acting as a doctor for 11 months in October 2004.

While we may not be able to expressly ping Rogers... there's certainly enough to say that he belongs nowhere anywhere near a "zero tolerance" team.

His contract is up.

 

[MatParker117]

Some power data on Wiggo from a Sky atlantic doc (believe this was during Paris-Nice):

Over a 30 minute period during the race he averaged 440 watts.

 

[thehog]

His contract is up.

How convenient. He can go have a beer with Yates and took about their non-disclosure departures.

 

[JimmyFingers]

If you are caught leaving a massage parlour at 3 in the morning chances are you were up to no good. Its the Clinton 'I never inhaled' defence: Rogers trained with Ferrari, that makes him a doper in my eyes, then and possibly now.

Sky should make him walk the plank. Now if he has signed and Sky don't, while causing hoots of derison from here no doubt, it should be noted that their hands are tied. There is no definitive evidence against him, just hearsay. To terminate a contract on those grounds would invite civil action.

The rest of the world doesn't live by clinic rules, There you can't decide someone is guilty because you say so. And you can't sack someone for that either

 

[Froome19]

Precisely.

What posters here seem to be suggesting is to open up an investigation against Rogers conducted by Team Sky, the only problem with that being is that they are a cycling team not an institution or organisation like USADA which can initiate such investigations. There is only so much Sky can do at the moment and to be honest that is where their stance lands them in a spot of bother as they have no realistic way of assuring that it is kept to.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If you are caught leaving a massage parlour at 3 in the morning chances are you were up to no good. Its the Clinton 'I never inhaled' defence: Rogers trained with Ferrari, that makes him a doper in my eyes, then and possibly now.

Sky should make him walk the plank. Now if he has signed and Sky don't, while causing hoots of derison from here no doubt, it should be noted that their hands are tied. There is no definitive evidence against him, just hearsay. To terminate a contract on those grounds would invite civil action.

The rest of the world doesn't live by clinic rules, There you can't decide someone is guilty because you say so. And you can't sack someone for that either

But we were told that, just as Travis Tygart will tell you, eyewitness accounts are evidence.

Patrik Sinkewitz can tell you that Mick Rogers was in the Freiburg clinic with the T-Mobile team. Levi Leipheimer can tell you - and has told us, in a legally binding document no less - that Mick Rogers was at a camp with Michele Ferrari alongside a number of other riders who have been busted.

Maybe you need more eyewitness accounts for it to be considered definitive (as we now know, 0 is not definitive, 11 is definitive, but the transition point lies somewhere in between and we don't know quite where). But where do we draw the line between 'hearsay' and 'evidence'? That's why I brought up Rogers in the first place. Because if, as the post I responded to contested, eyewitness accounts constitute hard evidence, and not hearsay or rumour, then Mick Rogers has no place at Team Sky.

Notwithstanding that Ferrari was banned from acting as a doctor at the time Rogers was using him for coaching, of course. And lest we forget after all, there are riders who have been banned for fraternizing with Ferrari with no further evidence of doping.

If Team Sky signed Pippo Pozzato, would he be able to sign the declaration? And would Team Sky accept that as enough evidence that he fits the zero tolerance template?

 

[MatParker117]

But we were told that, just as Travis Tygart will tell you, eyewitness accounts are evidence.

Patrik Sinkewitz can tell you that Mick Rogers was in the Freiburg clinic with the T-Mobile team. Levi Leipheimer can tell you - and has told us, in a legally binding document no less - that Mick Rogers was at a camp with Michele Ferrari alongside a number of other riders who have been busted.

Maybe you need more eyewitness accounts for it to be considered definitive (as we now know, 0 is not definitive, 11 is definitive, but the transition point lies somewhere in between and we don't know quite where). But where do we draw the line between 'hearsay' and 'evidence'? That's why I brought up Rogers in the first place. Because if, as the post I responded to contested, eyewitness accounts constitute hard evidence, and not hearsay or rumour, then Mick Rogers has no place at Team Sky.

Notwithstanding that Ferrari was banned from acting as a doctor at the time Rogers was using him for coaching, of course. And lest we forget after all, there are riders who have been banned for fraternizing with Ferrari with no further evidence of doping.

If Team Sky signed Pippo Pozzato, would he be able to sign the declaration? And would Team Sky accept that as enough evidence that he fits the zero tolerance template?

Unless there British that declaration is all Team sky can do.

 

[JimmyFingers]

But we were told that, just as Travis Tygart will tell you, eyewitness accounts are evidence.

Patrik Sinkewitz can tell you that Mick Rogers was in the Freiburg clinic with the T-Mobile team. Levi Leipheimer can tell you - and has told us, in a legally binding document no less - that Mick Rogers was at a camp with Michele Ferrari alongside a number of other riders who have been busted.

Maybe you need more eyewitness accounts for it to be considered definitive (as we now know, 0 is not definitive, 11 is definitive, but the transition point lies somewhere in between and we don't know quite where). But where do we draw the line between 'hearsay' and 'evidence'? That's why I brought up Rogers in the first place. Because if, as the post I responded to contested, eyewitness accounts constitute hard evidence, and not hearsay or rumour, then Mick Rogers has no place at Team Sky.

Notwithstanding that Ferrari was banned from acting as a doctor at the time Rogers was using him for coaching, of course. And lest we forget after all, there are riders who have been banned for fraternizing with Ferrari with no further evidence of doping.

If Team Sky signed Pippo Pozzato, would he be able to sign the declaration? And would Team Sky accept that as enough evidence that he fits the zero tolerance template?

To quickly address the Pozzato point, we are discussing an incumbent, under contract. Sky are under no obligation to sign anyone to their roster, however by law there are restrictions on terminating contracted riders, like Rogers.

On Roger's potential guilt you'll hear no argument from me, as I have already said. Unfortunately that is not the way a tribunal or court would see it.

Sky were stupid to sign him given his history but now he is under contract without confession or further, more damning evidence there's not a lot they can do

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Precisely.

What posters here seem to be suggesting is to open up an investigation against Rogers conducted by Team Sky, the only problem with that being is that they are a cycling team not an institution or organisation like USADA which can initiate such investigations. There is only so much Sky can do at the moment and to be honest that is where their stance lands them in a spot of bother as they have no realistic way of assuring that it is kept to.

Nope.
Team Sky were the ones to suggest having a zero tolerance policy - their new position is to request all to sign a declaration that they have no doping history.

It's not an investigation - its a declaration, done by an employer.
Jullich never failed a test - so its not about positives.
Rogers had admitted he went to Ferrari.

 

[Froome19]

Yes indeed, but how else are Sky able to justifiably prove that Rogers doped?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes indeed, but how else are Sky able to justifiably prove that Rogers doped?

Rogers admitted meeting Ferrari - the Sky piece (even if I think it's PR) requests no association with doping now or in the past.

 

[ebandit]

suspicious

Rogers admitted meeting Ferrari - the Sky piece (even if I think it's PR) requests no association with doping now or in the past.

yes! suspicious but how is it 'past or present involvement with doping'

 

[JimmyFingers]

Rogers admitted meeting Ferrari - the Sky piece (even if I think it's PR) requests no association with doping now or in the past.

Actually it says 'involvement' rather than 'association'

 

[nighttrain]

Shocker

It will be a shocker if Sky defies circumstantial evidence and proves to be clean.

 

[will10]

yes! suspicious but how is it 'past or present involvement with doping'

Rogers has admitted training with Ferrari. It's game over for him.

 

[ebandit]

proof

Rogers has admitted training with Ferrari. It's game over for him.

that's like it's saying that it's proof that evans doped

if the rider denies doping and there is no evidence otherwise............

.........it was just a training camp / testing

 

[coinneach]

In any event, Rogers hasn't a contract for life, has he?
Sky can afford to pay him off, its a drop in the Ocean for them.
If he retires they might even ensure he keeps their training methods to himself (this goes for whether you believe the Tenerife 5 dope or not)
What they cannot again do, this time, is announce a policy and then not implement it.
They will miss him, though, and I'm sure the other riders would love him to stay.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

I don't think Sky could get rid of him, without paying his contract based on the evidence. Despite what most people in here think, including me, the connection to Ferrari, without corroborating evidence, would not be enough to secure a doping conviction. Therefore, Rogers could plausibly sign the declaration and Sky, who say they aren't going to investigate it, would have to accept it. Of course if more comes out about his training with Ferrari he would be toast.

 

[thehog]

that's like it's saying that it's proof that evans doped

if the rider denies doping and there is no evidence otherwise............

.........it was just a training camp / testing

My god! T-Mobile Freiburg boy is innocent!

Nothing to see here move along.

Not in all my days have I heard Rogers defended as clean. You heard it first.