Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[JimmyFingers]

Does anyone seriously think Sky will say anything about Leinders? I am just thinking now they will just close their eyes, put their hands over their ears and hope it will all go away and when the new season starts they will think we will have forgotten about it.

I think it depends on the reaction. If the British media pick up on it maybe, Kimmage is hot on Leinders and Sky, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Kimmage/Brailsford interview soon. Leinders clearly needs greater investigation although I still stop short of seeing it as a smoking gun. More circumstancial and really no new news.

 

[Mellow Velo]

How on earth did you decide that people dont apply these standards to other teams in the peloton.

In 2012 there were 2 other teams who's results raised eyebrows - OPQS with Ibraugen and Astana, and both these teams, everyone in the clinic concluded were red level on suspicion.

Is there a Clinic thread on OPQS and Ibraugen to browse?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Did you read my post at all? Or was just over your head completely?

If I misinterpreted your post my apologies.

Got a link for the facts, back in 2007, before Sky employed him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM5slCaEUZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seyP-yxUm80

Nuff said, if one has eyes.

 

[the sceptic]

I think it depends on the reaction. If the British media pick up on it maybe, Kimmage is hot on Leinders and Sky, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Kimmage/Brailsford interview soon. Leinders clearly needs greater investigation although I still stop short of seeing it as a smoking gun. More circumstancial and really no new news.

Hasnt Brailsford already made a full investigation?

 

[Freddythefrog]

I need to get out more !

I think it depends on the reaction. If the British media pick up on it maybe, Kimmage is hot on Leinders and Sky, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Kimmage/Brailsford interview soon. Leinders clearly needs greater investigation although I still stop short of seeing it as a smoking gun. More circumstancial and really no new news.

I am starting to become a Daily Telegraph reader ever since Gallagher broke the story on Yates and then within 24 hours did a complete "about face". Ever since then he has had a steady stream of exclusive eulogies given to him to publish. Fran smouching him. This week, after the BBC Personality thing, we had about 4 stories about Brad and Froome, trying to get the readers interested in who was going to be number 1 at the Tour. All very tastefully written with no back-biting or real substance. (The pen of Fran ?) As they popped out I started to wonder if we were being led away from something smelly. What's next ? "Our Sky sprinter will beat Cav - just you see." That will get the new cycling "experts" in the UK at their keyboards.

 

[The Hitch]

The problem I have with this line of argument is that, historically, it wasn't just the winners that doped. Losers doped too.

This doesn't do anything to prove that Sky aren't doping, they may well be, but equally it doesn't add anything to the accusation that they are. Somebody has to win.

Its true that bad cyclists dope too and it is actually used by our side a lot on here to counter the oft used argument that the fact that Wiggins did not climb as fast as dopers gone by (though he did tt as fast) is highly suggestive of a clean athlete.

But its pretty logical that suspicion of doping falls on those who produce super performances. Like Lemond said in 2000 "this is the greatest story or the greatest fraud".

In fact Wiggins himself said its the winners on whom suspicion falls. He even said that super performances are the most suspicious saying that he knew Vino doped just because he won the tt and that his future aim was to

"I might win the Time Trial and be a credible Time Trial winner because I haven't beaten someone by 2 minutes."


But more importantly a good performance is only part of the argument, more important is the improvement.

Its not that Wiggins and Froome were so good at the Tour its that they improved so much. Wiggins finished his first Tour in 134th position. Froome in 80th. Now they are 1-2.

And its usually those that improve the most that get most suspicion. Hell even the bbc olympic coverage repeatedly accused Talik Makhloufi of doping because he was a little known runner who won the gold.

On the one hand it is a bit nauseating, but on the other hand he is the consummate professional, and part of that means getting the PR right. It is the climate we live in. Brailsford is doing an excellent job of the PR. Worthy of an Oscar, a bit vomit-inducing, but nevertheless, he is successfully steering a highly-pressured team through a torrid environment post-Lance.

You and I might prefer that he was frank, but that wouldn't be realistic.

I am not arguing that Bailsford's media strategy is proof of doping I am responding to your original post that Garmin are suspcious by the same standards by pointing out that this is not the case because the Garmin DS makes a huge effort.

The fact that JV comes out and answers questions and DB does not warrants us to "by the same standards" treat Garmin with less suspicion than Sky.

Just like the fact that Marco Pinnoti spoke of his disapointment with Lance back in 2009 warrants us to treat him with less suspicion than say Vincenzo Nibali who still sees Lance as a "hero".

 

[The Hitch]

Is there a Clinic thread on OPQS and Ibraugen to browse?

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=16835

Dr J also comes up some in the Gilbert thread

 

[Joachim]

But its pretty logical that suspicion of doping falls on those who produce super performances. Like Lemond said in 2000 "this is the greatest story or the greatest fraud".

In fact Wiggins himself said its the winners on whom suspicion falls

Well yes. Of course had Armstrong never won, the events of the past year would likely have never happened. You can be sure that many riders in the 99-05 era committed the same doping offences as Armstrong, but have got away with it. Armstrong's biggest mistake was to win (and be an odious c*** who is currently finding out what karma means)

But more importantly a good performance is only part of the argument, more important is the improvement.

Its not that Wiggins and Froome were so good at the Tour its that they improved so much. Wiggins finished his first Tour in 134th position. Froome in 80th. Now they are 1-2.

That is a well-trodden argument on this thread, and let's not start it again for fear of all the innumerate trying to justify their positions with some very bad science.

The corollary of that is also a factor, who has deteriorated, and deterioration includes not being there (Clue: AC)

 

[thehog]

Like someone said a few pages back, no smoke without fire. There is so much heat being generated by Sky and their actions I feel I have a hotel on the top of mount Etna!

Froome and his meteoric rise to become a GC contendor (I suppose this is being put down to marginal gains?)
Rogers
Barry
Leinders
Yates
Jullich
de Jongh
Wiggins and his comparrison with USPS
Wiggins and his love for Lance
Wiggins suddenly divorcing Lance
Wiggins USPS style outburst about lazy ****ers
Skys domination in 2012
Skys PR Failings (Too many to list)
More

All the above for me is just TOO many items that cause too much smoke. Its been said on this thread before, if the above was Movistar of AG2R well jesus, the Sky Boyz would be kicking off.

Its just smells, we need answers.

Don't forget little Richie Porte and his loose lips.

Back to Sky. I have some serious concerns. Just when I thought cycling was entering a new era we're back at 2002 again.

The 'Armstrong Affair' shook the sport to its core. I'm saddened that its all started again and the sport hasn't moved on.

Sky and no better than USPS. I'm sorry.

The sport is still sick. Teams that run doping programs win.

It's a other sad day for the sport and on the eve of Christmas as well

 

[The Hitch]

The corollary of that is also a factor, who has deteriorated, and deterioration includes not being there (Clue: AC)

AC wasnt there in 2006 either Nor Andy Schleck for that matter.

 

[Joachim]

Sky and no better than USPS.

Well they are. Sky have won a GT.

 

[will10]

Well they are. Sky have won a GT.

Heras still has his '03 Vuelta.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well they are. Sky have won a GT.

Roberto Heras, 2003 Vuelta.

 

[Joachim]

Oops forgot that one

 

[thehog]

Don't forget little Richie Porte and his loose lips.

Back to Sky. I have some serious concerns. Just when I thought cycling was entering a new era we're back at 2002 again.

The 'Armstrong Affair' shook the sport to its core. I'm saddened that its all started again and the sport hasn't moved on.

Sky and no better than USPS. I'm sorry.

The sport is still sick. Teams that run doping programs win.

It's a other sad day for the sport and on the eve of Christmas as well

The sport needs a complete clean out top to bottom.

I'm lost for words on this news.

Not sure i can watch the Tour 2013.

 

[Joachim]

Then don't.

Simples. No need to beat yourself up about it

 

[the sceptic]

The sport needs a complete clean out top to bottom.

I'm lost for words on this news.

Not sure i can watch the Tour 2013.

Dont worry, sky has gotten rid of all the dirty apples, and this time they are really serious about being a clean team.

 

[will10]

Dont worry, sky has gotten rid of all the dirty apples, and this time they are really serious about being a clean team.

When did Froome leave? I must've missed that.

 

[thehog]

Then don't.

Simples. No need to beat yourself up about it

To be honest. I'm not surprised by the latest revelation from Sky.

It confirms everything I knew about their nefarious activities.

One worries me most is there is defence of their actions on this very forum. Especially those stating "there's nothing to see here".

After the 'Armstrong affair' it beggars belief some are trying to defend the indefensible.

The fans only have themselves to blame for what it served up.

Sad day for the sport. Sad day for true cycling fans

 

[Joachim]

Some or all of them may yet prove to be doping.

But you don't know anything about it.

 

[oldcrank]

Okay the Mayan prophecies did not come to pass,
but I believe Paul Weller's "Burning Sky prophecy" has.
Have a close listen to the lyrics of this song by one
of Sir BMW's favourite bands (recorded before BMW
was born) www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS_qw33mR00

Below are (most of) the lyrics for you to analyse, I believe
they document the rise and they predict the future of
BMW and Sky. And it seems the future for Sky is bright.
You decide:

"we've all grown up and we've got our own lives
and the values we had once upon a time
seem stupid now 'cause the rent must be paid
and some bonds severed and others made

now I don't want you to get me wrong
ideals are fine when you are young
and I must admit we had a laugh
but that's all it was and ever will be
'cause the burning SKY keeps burning bright
and as long as it does (and it always will)
there's no time for dreams when commerce calls
and the taxman's shouting 'cause he wants his dough
and the wheels of finance won't begin to slow

and it's only us realists who are gonna come through
'cause there is only one power higher than that of truth
and that's the burning SKY, that's the burning SKY

oh and by the way I must tell you before i sign off
that I've got a meeting next week
with the head of a big corporate
I can't disclose who but I'm sure you'll know it
and the burning SKY keeps on burning bright
and it won't turn off 'til it's had enough
it's the greedy bas tard who won't give up
and you're just a dreamer if you don't realise
and the sooner you do will be the better for you
then we'll all be happy and we'll all be wise
and we'll all bow down to the burning SKY

then we'll all be happy and we'll all be wise
and together we will live beneath the burning SKY"

(from Burning Sky, by Paul Weller, reproduced here
without permission for educational purposes only)

 

[wirral]

Wiggins appearing on BBC's 6 Music radio station next Wednesday with his 'hero', Paul Weller, "The Modfather".

You can listen via your computer for up to 7 days after the broadcast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01pgq27

Not sure if it is clinic fodder but certainly Sky related.

 

[MatParker117]

Well they are. Sky have won a GT.

There accounts are public record, they've had several film crews with them this year.

 

[oldcrank]

Not sure if it is clinic fodder

The only time I saw the Jam (London, Dec 1978) a portion
of the crowd most certainly was Clinic fodder. As were the
crowds at the Pistols last ever British gig a few days later and
at the Ramones New Years Eve performance at the Rainbow
about a week later.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I am starting to become a Daily Telegraph reader ever since Gallagher broke the story on Yates and then within 24 hours did a complete "about face". Ever since then he has had a steady stream of exclusive eulogies given to him to publish. Fran smouching him. This week, after the BBC Personality thing, we had about 4 stories about Brad and Froome, trying to get the readers interested in who was going to be number 1 at the Tour. All very tastefully written with no back-biting or real substance. (The pen of Fran ?) As they popped out I started to wonder if we were being led away from something smelly. What's next ? "Our Sky sprinter will beat Cav - just you see." That will get the new cycling "experts" in the UK at their keyboards.

The day Ben Swift starts beating Cav is the day I agree with you