Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[JimmyFingers]

Noooo!

This stalemate is reminiscent of trench warfare and I am looking forward to seeing the Hog and Jimmy Fingers play football in No Man's Land on Christmas Day!

+1. Are we allowed PEDs?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

My take on Leinders was always he was a doctor at Rabobank while they were doping, he wasn't officially implicated and he has no entry on Dopeology. So while there was guilt by implication of doping there was nothing concrete. Ergo in a horrible way he did fit in Sky's ZTP.

The same as Yates, Rogers, De Jongh, Julich and Rogers did since none had been officially censured for drug use. Of course in pro-cycling that means little, but it meant Sky could maintain the impression of ZTP while perhaps underneath it was closer to a Garmin-like policy, only slightly stricter. Hence why he couldn't employ Millar, although I'm sure Brailsford would have liked to.

The USADA report ripped away that facade and he was forced to re-implement a more draconian ZTP, which has seen them get rid of pretty much everyone that the Clinic have talked about, short of Sutton. Libertine in fact cited Rogers departure an a litmus test of Sky's seriousness in this.

Of course we have Tygart most recently, although he's not alone, being critical of Sky's approach and favouring the more inclusive Garmin one, which was probably the model Sky were employing pre-USADA subversively, to keep the sponsors, media and public happy (although of course there are plenty who dismiss Garmin's approach as pure PR)>

That said, I am in complete agreement that Leinders involvement is dubious at best. Leipheimer's testimony, if true, isn't so much a game-changer as re-enforcement of what was already known, but it does require action from Sky.

Dear Jimmy, everyone in the pro-peloton knows who Leinders is, who the other extreme good alchemists are. As did Brailsford, as did Wiggo. Wake up. You are on your way.

 

[Joachim]

Why on earth do people assume that Brailsford would have known that Leinders was dodgy? It is not at all the case that teams, or individual riders shout about what they have been up to, unless it either serves a purpose for them (a la Landis & Hamilton) or they are forced to through threat of legal redress.

It is worth reminding ourselves that just because Leinders did what many team doctors did whilst at Rabobank, it does not indicate that he did it at Sky.

Sorry, but this is not evidence of Sky running a team doping system. It is evidence of Rabobank running a doping system.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Dear Jimmy, everyone in the pro-peloton knows who Leinders is, who the other extreme good alchemists are. As did Brailsford, as did Wiggo. Wake up. You are on your way.

That's exactly what Jimmy is saying. There's no awakening required. What we're debating is whether this latest 'revelation' is news or not. It isn't, but do keep up.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Why on earth do people assume that Brailsford would have known that Leinders was dodgy? It is not at all the case that teams, or individual riders shout about what they have been up to, unless it either serves a purpose for them (a la Landis & Hamilton) or they are forced to through threat of legal redress.

It is worth reminding ourselves that just because Leinders did what many team doctors did whilst at Rabobank, it does not indicate that he did it at Sky.

Sorry, but this is not evidence of Sky running a team doping system. It is evidence of Rabobank running a doping system.

Leinders hasn't doped a rider since 2006. Now only issues vitamins and wet wipes.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Why on earth do people assume that Brailsford would have known that Leinders was dodgy? It is not at all the case that teams, or individual riders shout about what they have been up to, unless it either serves a purpose for them (a la Landis & Hamilton) or they are forced to through threat of legal redress.

It is worth reminding ourselves that just because Leinders did what many team doctors did whilst at Rabobank, it does not indicate that he did it at Sky.

Sorry, but this is not evidence of Sky running a team doping system. It is evidence of Rabobank running a doping system.

People assume Brailsford would have known Leinders was dodgy because it was in the public domain thanks to the Dutch official docs in the wake of the Rasmussen scandal. While this has been largely overlooked and ignored by the Clinic until this July, "attention to detail" is one of Sky's mantras that Brailsford has built his empire on, along with "zero tolerance, all-singing all-dancing clean team". So hiring him outs at least one of those policies as a fallacy, as either they knew about his past and ignored it (thus the latter is false), or they didn't know (thus the former is false).

Given the relative obscurity of the official connecting of Geert Leinders and doping, you may think I'm being harsh on Brailsford and his team, but then we forum users haven't been telling the press all about our attention to detail as a justification for our success for the last three years. Our jobs and reputations aren't on the line if somebody at Team Sky is named in a scandal or tests positive, so you'd think Dave could do the background reading or at least employ somebody to do it for him (he's hinted in the past that he did not personally interview Leinders for the position).

 

[The Hitch]

Whatever Wiggins says will be under strict PR limitations so it would not mean much anyways.

Agree.

You want a guy who had nothing to do with the hiring of Leinders to make a statement about an unconfirmed report about a guy who's just been fired from this guy's team for the reason in the report? Yeah, deafening.

And why haven't you answered the previous question on Leinders and Ferrari? The silence is deafening.

You are right that its silly to expect wiggins to come out and talk about Lienders today because of this unconfirmed report, but in the long run Wiggin's silence on Lienders has been notable considering the very passionate stance he once made against "dodgy doctors" and any team that has them.

Not deafening, I agree, and imo comments on Lienders wouldnt change much 1 way or another but its worth a little scribble on top of a tissue box anyway.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

That's exactly what Jimmy is saying. There's no awakening required. What we're debating is whether this latest 'revelation' is news or not. It isn't, but do keep up.

I read it as 'nothing to see here, move along', the next apology for SKY and their Rasmussen the Sequal.

 

[will10]

Is this for real? The new Sky fanboy go-to line is "no-one knew Leinders' past when Brailsford hired him"?

 

[Joachim]

People assume Brailsford would have known Leinders was dodgy because it was in the public domain thanks to the Dutch official docs in the wake of the Rasmussen scandal. While this has been largely overlooked and ignored by the Clinic until this July, "attention to detail" is one of Sky's mantras that Brailsford has built his empire on, along with "zero tolerance, all-singing all-dancing clean team". So hiring him outs at least one of those policies as a fallacy, as either they knew about his past and ignored it (thus the latter is false), or they didn't know (thus the former is false).

Thanks. Would you mind linking to the document in question, please? It is news to me that this guy was named so early on.

Given the relative obscurity of the official connecting of Geert Leinders and doping, you may think I'm being harsh on Brailsford and his team, but then we forum users haven't been telling the press all about our attention to detail as a justification for our success for the last three years. Our jobs and reputations aren't on the line if somebody at Team Sky is named in a scandal or tests positive, so you'd think Dave could do the background reading or at least employ somebody to do it for him (he's hinted in the past that he did not personally interview Leinders for the position).

I'm not quite sure that the bit I've bolded adds to your argument, or is a bit spurious, but to the rest of it then, yes, I agree with you, if it was in the public domain. I probably haven't followed this as closely as some, but I'm not sure Leinders role at Sky has ever been fully revealed...and I don't mean that in a conspiratorial way...I mean whether he was just a useful hired hand with race experience. It is far too easy to jump to conclusions, make assumptions, and start building a case on false premises.

But, again, this isn't evidence of Sky doping. It is evidence of Rabobank doping.

It may just be that Brailsford has been caught out making some promises that he wasn't in an easy position to keep. Then again, it can't be easy attempting to staff a squeaky-clean team given the recent history of the pro scene.

I think it is also worth pointing out that if we apply the standard of so-called 'evidence' that some on here deem reasonable, then, by implication Garmin are a doping team.

Geddit?

 

[MartinGT]

People assume Brailsford would have known Leinders was dodgy because it was in the public domain thanks to the Dutch official docs in the wake of the Rasmussen scandal. While this has been largely overlooked and ignored by the Clinic until this July, "attention to detail" is one of Sky's mantras that Brailsford has built his empire on, along with "zero tolerance, all-singing all-dancing clean team". So hiring him outs at least one of those policies as a fallacy, as either they knew about his past and ignored it (thus the latter is false), or they didn't know (thus the former is false).

Given the relative obscurity of the official connecting of Geert Leinders and doping, you may think I'm being harsh on Brailsford and his team, but then we forum users haven't been telling the press all about our attention to detail as a justification for our success for the last three years. Our jobs and reputations aren't on the line if somebody at Team Sky is named in a scandal or tests positive, so you'd think Dave could do the background reading or at least employ somebody to do it for him (he's hinted in the past that he did not personally interview Leinders for the position).

That wouldnt suprise me.

"No it wasnt me so dont sake me, he did it!"

Re Wiggins releasing a statement, it wouldnt suprise me if Sky turned around and said they wouldnt want him near an interview. The interview when he said "It was a myth" re racing with Armstrong in the Tour he looked VERY uncomfortable.

 

[dolophonic]

The same as Yates, Rogers, De Jongh, Julich and Rogers did since none had been officially censured for drug use. Of course in pro-cycling that means little, but it meant Sky could maintain the impression of ZTP while perhaps underneath it was closer to a Garmin-like policy, only slightly stricter. Hence why he couldn't employ Millar, although I'm sure Brailsford would have liked to.
.

Really... kind of like when Lance says he never tested positive? We know.

 

[Joachim]

Is this for real? The new Sky fanboy

Thanks. It is so much easier when people do the work for you when your are working on an ignore list to remove the background noise.

Adios..

 

[MartinGT]

Thanks. Would you mind linking to the document in question, please? It is news to me that this guy was named so early on.



I'm not quite sure that the bit I've bolded adds to your argument, or is a bit spurious, but to the rest of it then, yes, I agree with you, if it was in the public domain. I probably haven't followed this as closely as some, but I'm not sure Leinders role at Sky has ever been fully revealed...and I don't mean that in a conspiratorial way...I mean whether he was just a useful hired hand with race experience. It is far too easy to jump to conclusions, make assumptions, and start building a case on false premises.

But, again, this isn't evidence of Sky doping. It is evidence of Rabobank doping.

It may just be that Brailsford has been caught out making some promises that he wasn't in an easy position to keep. Then again, it can't be easy attempting to staff a squeaky-clean team given the recent history of the pro scene.

I think it is also worth pointing out that if we apply the standard of so-called 'evidence' that some on here deem reasonable, then, by implication Garmin are a doping team.

Geddit?

This is why this thread is over 10k posts.

 

[Joachim]

Yes, I'd noticed. Don't think there are many lawyers posting on this board.

 

[the sceptic]

a new sky shill is born every day

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

a new sky shill is born every day

You might be right.

Geddit Joachim?

 

[errbud]

Yes, I'd noticed. Don't think there are many lawyers posting on this board.

good point lawyers always act with integrity and tell the truth

 

[Joachim]

I'm afraid you only reveal your own paranoia with comments like that. Don't bother replying to my posts if all you can manage are insults.

EDIT: Sorry Errbud, not you. Cross posted.

 

[MartinGT]

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Martin, no need to bring up my photo!

 

[MartinGT]

Martin, no need to bring up my photo!

Hahaha

Back on topic.

Does anyone seriously think Sky will say anything about Leinders? I am just thinking now they will just close their eyes, put their hands over their ears and hope it will all go away and when the new season starts they will think we will have forgotten about it.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Is this for real? The new Sky fanboy go-to line is "no-one knew Leinders' past when Brailsford hired him"?

So, you had read Levi's affidavit, a year before he made it?

How would Sky go about finding out what we eventually learned today, if and when Leinders told them a pack of lies?

What Sky sceptics are really saying is that they should have been aware about the rumour and not touched him with a barge pole.

I think with the benefit of hindsight, Brailsford would agree.

 

[Joachim]

Or he should have learnt Dutch and read the document that Liberty Seguros is going to link to.

 

[Joachim]

I didn't know Floyd smoked