Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Spencer the Half Wit]

All quite possible. Of the three Rabo, one has since admitted to doping and another has moved teams. It's possible that Hayman, who has never riden the Tour, and very few GTs was completely out of the loop.

Hayman in one of the many Sky documentaries claimed that he took a decision early on in his career that he wouldn't go the "extra mile" to make him a contender and was happy just being a domestique. Whether that is believable and/or whether he was kept out of the loop becasue of his stance is a moot point

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I'm glad so many here are comfortable with the fact that Dr. Lienders injected riders with EPO. Here's me thinking cycling moved on. Apparently it's ok that young cyclists were injected a dangerous and illegal substance by a medial Doctor.

Cycling had come a long way....

dangerous? they are medications and we have yet to see a rider die from them and we have seen the 90s... so long as riis is still alive and well I doubt it was very unhealthy. riding without being allowed to inject needles(vitamins) for 3 weeks cleanly, is far more unhealthy. any doctor agrees on that

 

[thehog]

dangerous? they are medications and we have yet to see a rider die from them and we have seen the 90s... so long as riis is still alive and well I doubt it was very unhealthy. riding without being allowed to inject needles(vitamins) for 3 weeks cleanly, is far more unhealthy. any doctor agrees on that

Thanks. I was worried there for a moment. Tell Johan Brailsford to carry on.

EPO is as safe as orange juice, right?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Thanks. I was worried there for a moment. Tell Johan Brailsford to carry on.

EPO is as safe as orange juice, right?

always the exagaration it makes your points only weaker every time.

 

[hrotha]

dangerous? they are medications and we have yet to see a rider die from them and we have seen the 90s... so long as riis is still alive and well I doubt it was very unhealthy. riding without being allowed to inject needles(vitamins) for 3 weeks cleanly, is far more unhealthy. any doctor agrees on that

Actually there's been plenty of unexplained deaths in cycling that might have something to do with the use of PEDs. Some of them quite recent, too.

 

[thehog]

always the exagaration it makes your points only weaker every time.

Not at all.

I'm sure Thomas Dekker would argue with you. After he was abandon for testing positive for an illegal substance injected into his veins by the company Doctor.

But EPO safe right. No one died so its all good. Dope on!

 

[Caruut]

always the exagaration it makes your points only weaker every time.

Still think those posts are stronger than someone who thinks that EPO is safe for no reason other than Bjarne Riis is alive. We did have riders dying in the 90s, we almost had Ricco die in the 00s, we have no idea what complications the cocktail of drugs that has been coursing through the veins of the peloton since 1990 will do to you down the line. Despite all this you say that Bjarne is healthy (how you know this I'm not so sure; are you his doctor maybe?) and therefore everything is hunky dory. I think I would be a lot happier if I was as naive as you.

 

[coinneach]

Bottom line is: Brailsford promised a review of Leinders and what he had done at Sky. All I've heard from him subsequently is that Leinders no longer works there.
Until I hear a proper explanation from Sky, I am no longer willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
OK, they might not want to make all their data available for everyone, or let Krimmage room with them for a couple of months, but they owe us a proper explanation about Leinders (and Bartalucci as well).
Anyone who thinks it ok to hire someone like this, and silently get rid of them as if nothing has happened and we'll just go on "believing in better" has seriously underestimated how much anger there is around just now.
Come on, press, pull the finger out!!!

 

[Joachim]

Do you think Leinders' past is relevant to his time at Sky?

Absolutely.

But not necessarily the doping part of it. Its curious how people have largely dropped all the bull**** about 'the way Sky rode the Tour' or 'Froome coming out of nowhere' stuff that isn't about evidence but about perception.

This is also about perception, although it is also about association. If it is anymore than that I hope we find out.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Ferminal is right. If Sky were going to dope, they'd do it with or without a doping doctor.

And in 2010, at the Vuelta, there were a bunch of guys pulling out as they were sick. Stomach virus.

In the first few days of the Vuelta, when you'd expect the riders to be tapered and recovered from their training. So the whole, "depressed immune system" business seems highly doubtful.

It was after this that Leinders was hired.

It was 2011 when Sky started kicking *** and taking names.

It was post-2012 Olympics when Leinders was let go. Definitely not fired, as someone else suggested. Not fired at all.

 

[silverrocket]

Actually there's been plenty of unexplained deaths in cycling that might have something to do with the use of PEDs. Some of them quite recent, too.

I'm seeing both sides of this: on one hand there indeed have been unexplained deaths, and even more unexplained illnesses and minor health problems that should not befall professional athletes. We also don't know the long-term/cumulative effects of doping.

On the other hand, EPO is in fact a medicine that is safely injected by doctors as a treatment for an actual medical problem, and EPO is banned in cycling, restricted in some places, but not actually "illegal". I wouldn't exactly compare Dr. Leinders to Dr. Mengele.

 

[thehog]

I'm seeing both sides of this: on one hand there indeed have been unexplained deaths, and even more unexplained illnesses and minor health problems that should not befall professional athletes. We also don't know the long-term/cumulative effects of doping.

On the other hand, EPO is in fact a medicine that is safely injected by doctors as a treatment for an actual medical problem, and EPO is banned in cycling, restricted in some places, but not actually "illegal". I wouldn't exactly compare Dr. Leinders to Dr. Mengele.

Indeed it is "illegal". Wrongful administering of medical substances is banned by law. ie if you're using the medicine for its non-intended use then its "illegal".

Doping is also a crime in France and Italy and soon Spain.

 

[Joachim]

EPO is a substance produced by your own body.

I'm not sure that I'd want to inject it, certainly not longterm, but apart from a whole bunch of deaths early on it seems to have been used relatively safely over the last decade particularly in the smaller quantities required to evade detection from the BP. Main problems recently haven't involved EPO, but self-administered transfusions.

EPO use for sports might well be illegal, but that doesn't necessarily equate to harmful. Transfusions save lives every day and yet in sports they too are illegal.

Still, it is refreshing to see Hog's hysterical language highlighted as such by others.

 

[andy1234]

Indeed it is "illegal". Wrongful administering of medical substances is banned by law. ie if you're using the medicine for its non-intended use then its "illegal".Doping is also a crime in France and Italy and soon Spain.

You get funnier by the day.

 

[Joachim]

I took an aspirin yesterday because I had wind.

Guess I broke the law...

 

[hrotha]

apart from a whole bunch of deaths early on

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kim-kirchen-comes-out-of-induced-coma
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/galletti-dies-at-subida-al-naranco
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/jun03/jun03news2

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If Sky hired Leinders to do doping then they would have known about what he did at Rabobank. So they would have known at the time of hiring that Rabo were facing a couple of investigations and court cases and he would almost certainly be exposed.
So why of all the doctors available pick the one they knew was the most likely to be exposed?

And knowing this why make sure he was widely mentioned on their website and quoted in the press.

And after all that they didn't even take him to the Grand Tours where on site doping is needed most.

If they were hiring him for doping they did everything wrong. Stupidly and recklessly. It doesn't make sense.

Somebody screwing up the background check is far easier to understand.

There was almost zero chance of Leinders being exposed.

There were 2 cases, Humanplasma in Austria was going nowhere and not going to expose him,nor would the case of Rasmussen as it was about what team management knew.

It was only De Rooj talking with the Dutch press last May that Rabos organised system started to come out and it took the USADA case to actually implicate him.

 

[Joachim]

@hrotha Do you know if there is a direct correlation between their deaths and EPO usage?

 

[hrotha]

@hrotha Do you know if there is a direct correlation between their deaths and EPO usage?

Of course not. It's irresponsible to just disregard them without further inquiry though. My point is that those unexplained incidents didn't just happen in the late 80s (there's no direct, proven correlation between those deaths and EPO, but most people seem to just accept they were caused by EPO).

 

[the sceptic]

I thought it was well known that EPO could lead to serious health issues

 

[del1962]

Hayman in one of the many Sky documentaries claimed that he took a decision early on in his career that he wouldn't go the "extra mile" to make him a contender and was happy just being a domestique. Whether that is believable and/or whether he was kept out of the loop becasue of his stance is a moot point

Hayman joined Rabo in 2000, from my understanding their policy then was nothing would be said, and only those who asked would know they could dope

So Haymen may not have known anythong (though it is possible he would have had ideas)

 

[Joachim]

@hrotha Really? I can't remember the timescale, but it was a bunch of Dutch guys dying in their sleep that caught my attention in the early 90's. At the time it was unexplained because the cat wasn't out of the bag about EPO, but it wasn't long before the connection was made. It must have garnered some attention by Dutch coroners, surely?

I'd be interested to know if anyone remembers

 

[Parker]

There was almost zero chance of Leinders being exposed.

There were 2 cases, Humanplasma in Austria was going nowhere and not going to expose him,nor would the case of Rasmussen as it was about what team management knew.

It was only De Rooj talking with the Dutch press last May that Rabos organised system started to come out and it took the USADA case to actually implicate him.

So despite there being 'zero chance' of being exposed, he has been exposed even before the investigations have really gone public.

Betting on Rabo's doping doctor never being mentioned in two cases involving doping at Rabo is one hell of a gamble. It's certainly not zero chance. And he was one of the management as well.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Feck sake, dangerous or not , though of course a concern is rather missing the point. Doping is theft , no if`s or buts.

The tone of certain posters is very much that of apologists.

Hate to use the cliché but Occam's razor any one?

The application of the principle often shifts the burden of proof in a discussion. The razor states that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power. The simplest available theory need not be most accurate. Philosophers also point out that the exact meaning of simplest may be nuanced.
By this understanding Sky/ BC have a bloody huge book of explaining to do and they are NOT doing so.
It looks like a duck, it walks like...even quacks like a duck...very high chance its a bloody duck...

 

[hrotha]

@hrotha Really? I can't remember the timescale, but it was a bunch of Dutch guys dying in their sleep that caught my attention in the early 90's. At the time it was unexplained because the cat wasn't out of the bag about EPO, but it wasn't long before the connection was made. It must have garnered some attention by Dutch coroners, surely?

I'd be interested to know if anyone remembers

Of course they were most likely caused by EPO, but every single case taken by itself could be due to other causes. Willy Voet talked about this in his book.