Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

who said it was funny? Dekker made a choice. Armstrong made a choice. Some chose not to dope. No one said it was funny. No one said Leinders wasn't sketchy. But every team had one back then or a link to one. Were the same riders forced to go to Vienna?

Good work with the fake moral indignation and selective recall, but Riis did not act alone. Are you forgetting what Riis said to Hamilton? What about Moral and Matt White and Trent Lowe at Garmin? What about Lim and Floyd and Armstrong and Garmin? Your fixation with Leinders and Sky is blinding you...

Dekker was 21. His employer “influenced” (direct quote) him to dope with EPO. They injected him. They referred him to another (unnamed) Doctor for blood transfusions.

This was his employer. I wonder what would have happened if this young man said “no”?

I’m in total shock that Leinders is being defended and you’re attempting to apportion blame solely to a 21 year old first year Pro.

Disgusting.

This is the Sky thread. Leinders is (was) employed by Sky.

If you have a problem with Saxo, Garmin or anyone else go those threads.

Don't shift the blame.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

BS. Dekker admits:

“I’d had problems all winter with my hip and then with the new team so at the end of 2007 I was feeling a lot of pressure. I wasn’t feeling myself in the team anymore. There was never any pressure from them though to use doping. I went out of my way to dope, I was responsible.”

Can you link that quote?

 

[thehog]

let's see how thehog is going to save himself out of this one...

The quote from Dekker in my post is post marked: January 19, 2013.

Masterracer: 2007.

He prefers to quote the Omerta version of a scared young man.

Nice work.

 

[thehog]

The quote from Dekker in my post is post marked: January 19, 2013.

Masterracer: 2007.

He prefers to quote the Omerta version of a scared young man.

Nice work.

Masterracer quote goes on to state: "“It wasn’t just once. It was a longer period."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/thomas-dekker-a-dopers-desire-for-redemption

Cannot believe Sky fans are lying to cover for Leinders.

Sick.

 

[Joachim]

Massive straw man from the hog. Nobody is defending Leinders. You, on the other hand are defending the doper Dekker. Armstrong was 22 when he won the Worlds. So what.

Disgusting.

 

[noddy69]

I tend to agree with the Hog. Dekker was given advice and put on a programme by medical professionals and on the advice of his employer. Not a nice position to put a young man in and frankly there would be few people who would say no put in the position he was. Yes some responsibility lies at his feet but more at those who put him in and influenced the young mans decision.

 

[mastersracer]

Can you link that quote?

it's from 2010 (not 2007 as Hog stated),

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/thomas-dekker-a-dopers-desire-for-redemption

Dekker accepts responsibility for his choice. It is a choice.

 

[Grandillusion]

I tend to agree with the Hog. Dekker was given advice and put on a programme by medical professionals and on the advice of his employer. Not a nice position to put a young man in and frankly there would be few people who would say no put in the position he was. Yes some responsibility lies at his feet but more at those who put him in and influenced the young mans decision.

Hog is so obviously right here. Leinders is beneath contempt, enabling such practices is criminal.His culpability is infinitely more serious than that of a relatively vulnerable and impressionable young man. He should be in jail. Not being employed by Sky. No brainer surely?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I tend to agree with the Hog. Dekker was given advice and put on a programme by medical professionals and on the advice of his employer. Not a nice position to put a young man in and frankly there would be few people who would say no put in the position he was. Yes some responsibility lies at his feet but more at those who put him in and influenced the young mans decision.

no he wasn;t. for the record. thomas wasn't doped in 2005 and rode very well. rabo where very content with him. only thomas wanted to be great in gt's and in 2006 went on a dopingprogram

 

[noddy69]

no he wasn;t. for the record. thomas wasn't doped in 2005 and rode very well. rabo where very content with him. only thomas wanted to be great in gt's and in 2006 went on a dopingprogram

On his own ? Did he just decide himself ?

 

[mastersracer]

On his own ? Did he just decide himself ?

"I was losing grip on my life but it was me that went and found the EPO and me that took it. I’m responsible, so why blame someone else?” -Dekker

Of course, Dekker should ask Hog what he really meant...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

it's from 2010 (not 2007 as Hog stated),

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/thomas-dekker-a-dopers-desire-for-redemption

Dekker accepts responsibility for his choice. It is a choice.

For its current relevance, it might as well be from 2007.

 

[thehog]

"I was losing grip on my life but it was me that went and found the EPO and me that took it. I’m responsible, so why blame someone else?” -Dekker

Of course, Dekker should ask Hog what he really meant...

If Leinders never worked for Sky you'd agree with me. I know it.

What are your thoughts on Ferrari, Bruyneel and DaveZ?

DaveZ's choice as well?

 

[DirtyWorks]

no he wasn;t. for the record. thomas wasn't doped in 2005 and rode very well.

Proof please. I'm not disagreeing with you because I REALLY don't know. I'm just asking for some details to back the claim.

 

[DirtyWorks]

... He should be in jail. Not being employed by Sky. No brainer surely?

What law is broken that would put him in jail? Where would the money come from to prosecute the doctor? What country would lead the prosecution?

I agree with you, it's just the rules/laws basically permit doping, especially with a Medical license. We don't even see Marti or Motoman in criminal investigations.

As I've posted elsewhere, if you think Lienders is bad, then Carmichael's doping Wonderboy and others as kids is worse still.

 

[pmcg76]

Leinders is sketchy, but how exactly is the situation at Sky an outlier? There's dodgy DS's like Riis with riders like Contador, and even the 'reformed' teams like Garmin have Lim, who has been implicated by Floyd and Levi, worked with Armstrong on 'hydration.'

If links to personnel with sketchy pasts is enough for guilt, the entire cycling world would be guilty.

I would guess probably because SKY set themselves up as the biggest, bestest, cleanest, most professional team out there who were going to revolutionise pro cycling and made no bones about telling everyone as much.

Now it turns out that they cannot even do the simple type of background check that the owner of the local corner-shop would do

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

For its current relevance, it might as well be from 2007.

Not at all. It would have to be taken in a completely different context if that were the case.

 

[The Hitch]

There's been no immense change. In 2007 his comments were a mostly emotional reaction to his Cofidis being kicked off the Tour. They were also informed by having the "deux vitesse" mantra drummed into him by a succession of unambitious French teams.
By 2009 he had seen clean success at more progressive HTC and Garmin and started to make an effort himself. Realising that things weren't as bad as his previously said, not having the anger of 2007 and not wanting to be 'the designated anti-doping spokesman' he preferred to talk about his own cycling which was now worth talking about.

No immense change? He went from identifying Brunyeel and Ferrari by name as 2 people who need to be out of the sport to becoming paisans with Brunyeels and Ferraris main client.

And are you really trying to tell me that no change is required for someone who made this first statement, to later make the second

A "

unfortunately now the suspicion is out there that you can't win the Tour de France unless you're doing something. That's unfortunate if he is clean but at the same time you can't blame people for the doubt that's there."

B

they're just ****ing ****ers. I cannot be doing with people like that.It justifies their own bone idleness because they can't imagine applying themselves to do anything in their livess

Can you really say with a straight face that there is no immense change in appraoch towards doping needed for someone who made comment a to then make comment be (coincidentally when he is winning the tour and not finishing 130th)

Of course he may have decided to start doping, taken a look at all the teams and decided Garmin was the best place to do it.

Who said he decided to dope before he went to Garmin?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Of course not. It's irresponsible to just disregard them without further inquiry though. My point is that those unexplained incidents didn't just happen in the late 80s (there's no direct, proven correlation between those deaths and EPO, but most people seem to just accept they were caused by EPO).

The one that sprung to my mind immediately was Bruno Neves. That was officially due to myocardial hypertrophy that could potentially have happened anyway, but given that we are talking about LA-MSS in 2008, there's got to be a possibility that the likelihood was increased given that it is highly probable that he will have been doping at the team. It sprung to my mind immediately because on the Planche des Belles Filles stage I posted in the stage thread something about the 2008 Vuelta a Asturias and posted a picture of LA-MSS in this very thread.

Given that Brailsford has confessed that Leinders came 'highly recommended', we must now learn by whom. This is important to the salvaging of the situation for Sky. They had guys at Rabo for the time period in question who ought to have been aware of him. Did they consult one and not the others? If, say, de Jongh recommended him, could Hayman, for example, not have countered with a less glowing recommendation that implied he may not be the ideal person for a team purporting to be totally clean to have on their medical staff? With three ex-Rabo guys on the team, did they all get consulted? Did they all give glowing testimony? If so, then this adds another level to it, as one of those riders is still at Sky.

Hayman is the most important one of these at this point in time, as he's still on the Sky roster and has presumably therefore signed the "These Are Not The Droids You're Looking For" cleanliness mandate. How much he knew about what was happening at Rabobank might then come under more scrutiny. After all, even if he as a domestique had no first-hand knowledge of doping under Leinders, he must have been aware that something was up with some of the guys he was riding for, and if he had any concerns about Leinders, were they a) voiced, and b) listened to?

 

[mastersracer]

If Leinders never worked for Sky you'd agree with me. I know it.

What are your thoughts on Ferrari, Bruyneel and DaveZ?

DaveZ's choice as well?

Dave made a choice. He made a choice again after he left Discovery when he doped with Floyd. I'm not defending Leinders, but I know enough riders who chose not to dope to know that there's always a choice.

 

[Grandillusion]

What law is broken that would put him in jail? Where would the money come from to prosecute the doctor? What country would lead the prosecution?

I agree with you, it's just the rules/laws basically permit doping, especially with a Medical license. We don't even see Marti or Motoman in criminal investigations.

As I've posted elsewhere, if you think Lienders is bad, then Carmichael's doping Wonderboy and others as kids is worse still.

Yeah I know...didn't I read somewhere a day or so back that Fuentes' activities are not illegal in Spain and he won't be prosecuted? I couldn't believe my eyes. The whole thing does my head in. I just can't help feeling if this was a just world those dirty ba*****s would be banged up & disbarred.

 

[ebandit]

duplicity

Cannot believe Sky fans are lying to cover for Leinders.

Sick.

hoggie...........which posts are you referring to? i have not seen any lies

but what about your constant lies? i have pointed out at least 3 that you
had come up with in recent months

not like you to expect more from others

 

[Darryl Webster]

BC President Brian Cookson : "When you think what the UCI has done in the last few years, pursuing offenders when other sports have let people off on the flimsiest of excuses," he said, "I think the UCI has got a good record in anti-doping that Pat can be proud of.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...okson-i-am-100-supportive-of-pat-mcquaid.html

Team Sky is owned by a company called Tour Racing Limited, which holds the team's UCI ProTour licence. TRL is a holding company owned by BSkyB and on the board of TRL are two senior Sky executives and Ian Drake and Brian Cookson, the chief executive and president of British Cycling.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/438764/who-owns-team-sky.html

Conflicts of interest much? .

 

[thehog]

BC President Brian Cookson : "When you think what the UCI has done in the last few years, pursuing offenders when other sports have let people off on the flimsiest of excuses," he said, "I think the UCI has got a good record in anti-doping that Pat can be proud of.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...okson-i-am-100-supportive-of-pat-mcquaid.html

Team Sky is owned by a company called Tour Racing Limited, which holds the team's UCI ProTour licence. TRL is a holding company owned by BSkyB and on the board of TRL are two senior Sky executives and Ian Drake and Brian Cookson, the chief executive and president of British Cycling.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/438764/who-owns-team-sky.html

Conflicts of interest much? .

Sure beats the Armstrong styled donation.

 

[Joachim]

So, care to state what those conflicts of interest are?