Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[armchairclimber]

2 brilliant posts, couldn't have done it any better myself

Brilliant in that both ignore the (very likely) possibility that the front end of the peleton is unable to dope as effectively now, allowing improving clean riders to shoot up the rankings.

Basso anyone?

 

[Ferminal]

Still getting 5th in the Giro is pretty impressive if he stopped doping in 2011.

 

[Benotti69]

Brilliant in that both ignore the (very likely) possibility that the front end of the peleton is unable to dope as effectively now, allowing improving clean riders to shoot up the rankings.

Basso anyone?

What possibility? The amount of tests have been reduced. Ashenden left the passport due to its failure. UCI are the police, judge and jury of the doping.

I do agree about riders 'shooting up', just the UCI favoured ones were able to do it big time.

 

[Ferminal]

Ashenden left the passport because he didn't accept the terms of his contract.

 

[Benotti69]

Ashenden left the passport because he didn't accept the terms of his contract.

Which iirc meant he had to keep his mouth shut or similar, therefore meaning the passport was a failure as UCI could bury rider's blood profiles making the process of trying to catch riders doping a joke.

 

[The Hitch]

Brilliant in that both ignore the (very likely) possibility that the front end of the peleton is unable to dope as effectively now, allowing improving clean riders to shoot up the rankings.

Basso anyone?

There's a great hypocrisy in that argument and that is that it essentially accuses everyone but sky of having been dirty.

You evil.little feckers how dare you accuse sir Bradley and froome of taking drugs, with no evidence. It was only the other 50 riders (for which we also have no evidence) that did it.

Joking aside the argument doesn't fit. Because wiggins was finishing half an hour back on mountain stages. But even the most optimistic declarations of how cycling is clean now point to times up climbs being 2 or 3 minutes slower than before and in some cases less than a minute.

So is the peloton going half an hour slower so that wiggins and froome can compete or are those 2 going half an hour faster? Seems pretty clear its the latter.

And in the tt also. Wiggins and froome are going faster than they were before.

 

[Wiggo Warrior]

There's a great hypocrisy in that argument and that is that it essentially accuses everyone but sky of having been dirty.

You evil.little feckers how dare you accuse sir Bradley and froome of taking drugs, with no evidence. It was only the other 50 riders (for which we also have no evidence) that did it.

Joking aside the argument doesn't fit. Because wiggins was finishing half an hour back on mountain stages. But even the most optimistic declarations of how cycling is clean now point to times up climbs being 2 or 3 minutes slower than before and in some cases less than a minute.

So is the peloton going half an hour slower so that wiggins and froome can compete or are those 2 going half an hour faster? Seems pretty clear its the latter.

And in the tt also. Wiggins and froome are going faster than they were before.

Speculation from someone close to him of why Brad was maybe finishing in the grupetto comes in a quote from Cav's book, in the Epilogue, actually relating the aftermath of their failure in the Madison at Beijing.

In our separate ways, Brad and I had both found ourselves in an unfamiliar position that day. I hadn't known how to deal with being the strongest rider on the track - which is what I felt I was - and Bradley hadn't known how to cope with not being the strongest rider. It came down to how we'd grown up as cyclists - me the underdog, the physiological mongrel if you like, who'd learned to scrap and scratch because it was the only way for me to survive. Brad, on the other hand, was a thoroughbred who, in my opinion, was so used to relying on his natural talent that he perhaps hadn't learned how he could still win when that innate ability wasn't functioning. It was a classic role reversal: I didn't know how to take control when I was on the front foot, and Brad didn't know how to react with his back to the wall. In short, like a lot of supremely gifted athletes, Brad perhaps hadn't learned to suffer like I had. It's just my view, but perhaps that was also why his achievements on the road didn't match the success he'd had on the track.

Reading (and obviously believing) this quote, from someone who knows Brad probably as well as anybody other than his family, his GT progression makes a lot more sense. It wouldn't have been possible for Brad to race hard enough on the road, as he would have had to in 2002-2008 against the number of doping riders we already know about, to get good results, without 'learning to suffer' or having his 'back against a wall' in a number of races, if not all of them. It does therefore look very much like, at least in Cav's opinion, he didn't bother to try.

I know for a mainstream cycling fan this seems nonsensical, the idea of not trying as hard as you can in races on the road, with the road being so much more important than the track, but from Brad's point of view it must have made sense. Concentrate on prologues, make the breakaways for your team if you can and if not wait for the grupetto to form. You put the show on for the sponsors, which pays your wages and concentrate your effort on the track where it's comparitively easy for you to do well.

The half an hour thing is fairly meaningless in itself, as grupettos seem to usually come in just before the cutoff time, i.e. around half an hour on a mountain stage. Cav and Bernie came in about 33 minutes down on la Toussuire stage in the TdF.

It looks to me like, after his almost accidental climbing breakthrough due to his track weight loss in 2009, and some on the job race training by CVV about what to actually do now he wasn't getting dropped anymore, (he wasn't even supposed to be Garmin team leader in the Tour, and given his performance in 2010 quite possibly wouldn't have coped well if he had been from the beginning) resulted in the fourth place, that the disastrous 2010 Tour performed the dual role of teaching him to suffer physically but keep going, keep fighting when he wasn't on form, and provided sufficient mental suffering to make him determined not to coast anymore, the coaching focus changed to specifically address his racing weaknesses, and the 2011 Dauphine etc. was the result.

Judging from some reports out of Mallorca he's maybe taking this a mite too far now into borderline masochism and I hope the team has employed someone to sit on him to stop him overtraining this year as I want to see him win more races

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Brad perhaps hadn't learned to suffer like I had. It's just my view, but perhaps that was also why his achievements on the road didn't match the success he'd had on the track

That is funny stuff from someone hanging on cars to get in time to the finish in front of the broomcar at HTC, even coming in out of time but being let of the hook on several times - again at HTC - to a rider who at SKY suddenly is able to beat the time limit easily.

In other words: a BS 'argument'.

And, compliments for the Hitch, exellent postings on the TT/climber material!

 

[mastersracer]

Thats hillarious coming from you considering you were the one who said that everyone was "conveniently ignoring JV' comment that he thought Wiggins was clean, then ignored all the comments that disproved this and made the exact same post a week later.



So wait, what has been dismissed? That people jumping from 120th in the tour to 4th to 1st is suspicious? Ah never knew that.

I look forward to seeing Fabrice Jeandesboz following this natural career trajectory to a TDF podium next year.

Again, Wiggins performances are perfectly self-consistent - if you took time to understand the notion of a critical power plot and heeded actual reasoned and empirically-informed evidence over your own biases. As Wiggo Warrior pointed out, there are many reasons why a rider may not perform to his ability, which is the simplest explanation for Wiggins' earlier climbing performances. What you've failed to demonstrate is any indication that his performance represented a sudden increase in capacity - mere improvement in performance does not demonstrate that, as your explanation has too many confounds (multiple variables that you have no measure for and may interact). This forum needs a primer on critical reasoning.

 

[The Hitch]

Speculation from someone close to him of why Brad was maybe finishing in the grupetto comes in a quote from Cav's book, in the Epilogue, actually relating the aftermath of their failure in the Madison at Beijing.



Reading (and obviously believing) this quote, from someone who knows Brad probably as well as anybody other than his family, his GT progression makes a lot more sense. It wouldn't have been possible for Brad to race hard enough on the road, as he would have had to in 2002-2008 against the number of doping riders we already know about, to get good results, without 'learning to suffer' or having his 'back against a wall' in a number of races, if not all of them. It does therefore look very much like, at least in Cav's opinion, he didn't bother to try.

I know for a mainstream cycling fan this seems nonsensical, the idea of not trying as hard as you can in races on the road, with the road being so much more important than the track, but from Brad's point of view it must have made sense. Concentrate on prologues, make the breakaways for your team if you can and if not wait for the grupetto to form. You put the show on for the sponsors, which pays your wages and concentrate your effort on the track where it's comparitively easy for you to do well.

The half an hour thing is fairly meaningless in itself, as grupettos seem to usually come in just before the cutoff time, i.e. around half an hour on a mountain stage. Cav and Bernie came in about 33 minutes down on la Toussuire stage in the TdF.

It looks to me like, after his almost accidental climbing breakthrough due to his track weight loss in 2009, and some on the job race training by CVV about what to actually do now he wasn't getting dropped anymore, (he wasn't even supposed to be Garmin team leader in the Tour, and given his performance in 2010 quite possibly wouldn't have coped well if he had been from the beginning) resulted in the fourth place, that the disastrous 2010 Tour performed the dual role of teaching him to suffer physically but keep going, keep fighting when he wasn't on form, and provided sufficient mental suffering to make him determined not to coast anymore, the coaching focus changed to specifically address his racing weaknesses, and the 2011 Dauphine etc. was the result.

Judging from some reports out of Mallorca he's maybe taking this a mite too far now into borderline masochism and I hope the team has employed someone to sit on him to stop him overtraining this year as I want to see him win more races

give you credit there. Its an interesting theory and has some merit. Could explain some of his improvement, don't know if all of it.

Some follow up questions though. Did porte frome and rogers also just learn how to suffer. Also is ip really that weak? i thought it was 1 of the most painful disciplines out there and have heard it described as simply 4 minutes of pain- in contrast to.other track events where tactics play a bigger role.

Also as far as this goes

It does therefore look very much like, at least in Cav's opinion, he didn't bother to try.

From what wiggins said himself it certainly doesn't look like he didn't bother to try. He thought he would win both the prologue and the tt in 2007 and was furious to find out vino doped as it cost him a place. He talked like he would win both tts easy if there was no doping (though ironically cadel Evans who wiggins now declares is a clean rider was one of the guys who beat him)

 

[The Hitch]

Again, Wiggins performances are perfectly self-consistent - if you took time to understand the notion of a critical power plot and heeded actual reasoned and empirically-informed evidence over your own biases. As Wiggo Warrior pointed out, there are many reasons why a rider may not perform to his ability, which is the simplest explanation for Wiggins' earlier climbing performances. What you've failed to demonstrate is any indication that his performance represented a sudden increase in capacity - mere improvement in performance does not demonstrate that, as your explanation has too many confounds (multiple variables that you have no measure for and may interact). This forum needs a primer on critical reasoning.

So wiggins was always riding around with the ability to win the tours in his legs? Riding with the gruppeto must have been an absolute doss the. Even with the extra track weight and whatever else. The fact that he didn't show this talent not even once until 2009 is therefore very strange. At no point during the 6 or so years before 2009 that he rode hills and mountains did he not think- actually this is so easy. At no point did he think like every other cyclist does - lets see how long i can stay with the top guys on this hill.. And then suddenly in 2009 he can.

 

[armchairclimber]

There's a great hypocrisy in that argument and that is that it essentially accuses everyone but sky of having been dirty.

You evil.little feckers how dare you accuse sir Bradley and froome of taking drugs, with no evidence. It was only the other 50 riders (for which we also have no evidence) that did it.

Joking aside the argument doesn't fit. Because wiggins was finishing half an hour back on mountain stages. But even the most optimistic declarations of how cycling is clean now point to times up climbs being 2 or 3 minutes slower than before and in some cases less than a minute.

So is the peloton going half an hour slower so that wiggins and froome can compete or are those 2 going half an hour faster? Seems pretty clear its the latter.

And in the tt also. Wiggins and froome are going faster than they were before.

There's that phrase "improving riders"...try reading with both eyes Hitch, not just the one that suits your story.

 

[mastersracer]

So wiggins was always riding around with the ability to win the tours in his legs? Riding with the gruppeto must have been an absolute doss the. Even with the extra track weight and whatever else. The fact that he didn't show this talent not even once until 2009 is therefore very strange. At no point during the 6 or so years before 2009 that he rode hills and mountains did he not think- actually this is so easy. At no point did he think like every other cyclist does - lets see how long i can stay with the top guys on this hill.. And then suddenly in 2009 he can.

1. The critical power plot is the best response, once again. As Coggan stated in that thread: "the data are what the data are; my point is simply that as best as we can determine they are internally consistent." Argue the data, not empty speculation. It indicates that his improvement in terms of relative performance is consistent with his capacity. End of story.

 

[meat puppet]

true, the data might be internally consistent. many scientific models are.

however, we need a context. and here the measuring rod itself - that is the expected develpomental line of data points - might be skewed because of what went on as "normal" during the 90s and 2000s.

 

[ebandit]

climber

The achievement is not impossible in itself. But for Bradley Wiggins to do it suddenly going into his 30's(at the same time as having massive changes of opinion on doping)

Hmmm.

When i look at results or vidoes from 4 or 5 years ago half the riders i look at were 10 times the climbers wiggins was, and younger than him and now they are people who cant hold his wheel on a climb.

Some of them have been climbing all their lives, some of them are buit for it as well and yet despite these advantages wiggins suddenly 1 day decides - ill try this climbing thing, and the next day hes better than all of them.

Or even, away from the climbers look at Cancellara. Better tter check. Better prologue rider check. Better climber check. Younger, check. And yet people are still saying Cancellara cant win Lombardy for example.
While Wiggins, who was worse in every department has a Tour de France and 2 other gt podiums to his name and is favorite going into the major mountains of the giro. Cancellara goes into the same race wondering if he can win a stage.

Cancellara was being told that if he wanted to become a decent climber he would lose his tt speed. Yet Wiggins while making all the sacrifices neccesary to become that climber only goes and improves his tt massively. To the point where his speeds are faster than Cancellara ever was or Lance for that matter ever was.


How does that work that everyone else is trying to balance disciplines while wiggins going into his 30s just like that essentially overnight, goes and posts massive accross the board improvements in all disciplines. Even the ones that contradict the other ones.

i can't see cancellara EVER winning a race such as lombardy he's just too
BIG and strong

it may be convenient for your reasoning to compare brad / fabian but it's like
comparing chalk 'n cheese

sure they both t/t some but if one was to show pics of brad and fabio to a cycling fan and ask..............'who would make the better climber?' i don't think many would choose fabio

i'm surprised you have not compared brad's failings at roubaix or flanders
..............exactly!

 

[D-Queued]

So wiggins was always riding around with the ability to win the tours in his legs? Riding with the gruppeto must have been an absolute doss the. Even with the extra track weight and whatever else. The fact that he didn't show this talent not even once until 2009 is therefore very strange. At no point during the 6 or so years before 2009 that he rode hills and mountains did he not think- actually this is so easy. At no point did he think like every other cyclist does - lets see how long i can stay with the top guys on this hill.. And then suddenly in 2009 he can.

Not believing this for a second.

As a good friend of mine used to observe, it is going to hurt anyways so you might as well win.

Anybody in professional sport - and the pro peloton is at the very highest competitive level in cycling - isn't there for the experience and the scenery. They are competitively driven.

He was not a super-dom, and had the latitude to actually suffer and win and not just suffer.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

i can't see cancellara EVER winning a race such as lombardy he's just too
BIG and strong

it may be convenient for your reasoning to compare brad / fabian but it's like
comparing chalk 'n cheese

sure they both t/t some but if one was to show pics of brad and fabio to a cycling fan and ask..............'who would make the better climber?' i don't think many would choose fabio

i'm surprised you have not compared brad's failings at roubaix or flanders
..............exactly!

Canc is not far removed from Indurain in size, weight and height. If he was riding in the early to mid 90s he might have won a GT or 5.

 

[xcleigh]

As a good friend of mine used to observe, it is going to hurt anyways so you might as well win.

Anybody in professional sport - and the pro peloton is at the very highest competitive level in cycling - isn't there for the experience and the scenery. They are competitively driven.

He was not a super-dom, and had the latitude to actually suffer and win and not just suffer.

Dave.

Yeah, of course another lovely black and white statement. I presume you're friend is an individual with individual traits and his outlook is just that individual.

Of course the nuances of human traits and psychology don't exist in professional sports. Win at all cost the lot of them. No human frailties at all, physical or mental.

 

[Benotti69]

Yeah, of course another lovely black and white statement. I presume you're friend is an individual with individual traits and his outlook is just that individual.

Of course the nuances of human traits and psychology don't exist in professional sports. Win at all cost the lot of them. No human frailties at all, physical or mental.

If Wiggins is a win at all costs then doping is right up his street.

 

[xcleigh]

If Wiggins is a win at all costs then doping is right up his street.

My point wasn't that Wiggins is win at all costs, far from it.

 

[D-Queued]

Yeah, of course another lovely black and white statement. I presume you're friend is an individual with individual traits and his outlook is just that individual.

Of course the nuances of human traits and psychology don't exist in professional sports. Win at all cost the lot of them. No human frailties at all, physical or mental.

You presume too much, I am afraid. He is dead. He has no outlook.

He had lots of frailties. So do you, apparently.

Dave.

 

[xcleigh]

You presume too much, I am afraid. He is dead. He has no outlook.

He had lots of frailties. So do you, apparently.

Dave.

Yeah, when I race I have frailties as I do in normal everyday life. As I would suggest Pro athletes do.

 

[D-Queued]

Yeah, when I race I have frailties as I do in normal everyday life. As I would suggest Pro athletes do.

You should try going for the win when you race.

Apparently, that is all it takes. Next thing you know, you will be in yellow.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

My point wasn't that Wiggins is win at all costs, far from it.

His 2012 season dispels that.

 

[xcleigh]

His 2012 season dispels that.

How so? the clue is in the 'at all costs' bit. Just because he won alot last year doesn't mean it was at all costs, unless you know something I don't.