Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Haynzie]

Northstar, it is often kept under wraps by the rider wishing to move as his current team may well withdraw him from future races if they get to know about an impending move.

 

[Caruut]

See Jakob Fuglsang last year, for example. Didn't get to race any GTs because the team learned that he was moving, so didn't want another squad to get his WT points.

 

[Haynzie]

Another interesting snippet from today's interview with Hamilton. Here he is talking about how USPS wouldn't allow tough journalists to talk with USPS staff and riders...

"“The PR staff would never let that happen. Basically all the tough journalists, they would never get an interview. That’s not fair but the journalists who looked the other way so to speak they were the ones you got the interview. In a way they had to sway their opinions I guess. Certainly if they wrote a condescending interview that brought up a lot of speculation they wouldn’t get an interview. It’s just how it works.”


Sounds a bit like Sky doesn't it? Up until you read that the tough journalist in question is.....

....Walsh

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Thanks for the explanation. I'm new to cycling and what goes on outside the racing is fascinating stuff. The fact that a rider under contract will negotiate with another team during a race blows me away. Sounds like a rest day is more of a mental health day than anything else.

On Wiggins, again the reason why it was on a rest day and all hush hush was because he was meeting Brailsford to join Sky in 2010, even though he had a contract for 2010 with Garmin. Quite rare for contract breaks in cycling.

Most deals are done by agents, who often represent many riders.
As for the rest day, a lot of riders do not like them. For big names there's a press conference and lots of people drop by so they get little R&R.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Pete Kennaugh.

At the time of Sky's launch, DB's line was that there were guys in the academy whose "numbers" were consistent with winning GTs in the stated time frame. PK is the best of his generation, though his road development has been held back by his track efforts in the last couple of years. (Until relatively late in the 2012 Olympic cycle, Wiggins was expected to come back into the TP squad, so I don't think PK was originally earmarked for the TP in 2012.)

This all has to be taken with a pinch of salt, and might just have been marketing hype, but if Sky had really wanted Wiggo at their inception, they'd have signed him up before the 2009 Tour, when he'd have been a lot cheaper than he ultimately was.

Obviously it's been skewed because of the track efforts taking up much of his time in the last year or so, but I am quite surprised at how little we've seen of Kennaugh, given the hype of him at Sky's inception. He's certainly being handled with kid gloves, to the level where even Eusebio Unzué might say they're molly-coddling him too much. He was seen as the guy that Sky would be looking to for the future, but with the surprise coming-out parties of Froome and Tiernan-Locke he's probably further down the pecking order now than he was three years ago.

So, you are of the opinion Brad had a chrystal ball that projected Chris Froome, Mick Rogers, Richie Porte and the Russian bloke were coming to Sky while he had on Garmin let us see:
* Chris VandeVelde
* David Millar
* Tom Danielson
* Ryder Hesjedal
* Dave Z.
And a lot of young guns coming up, like Dan Martin.

And, do note, Porte/Rogers/Froome and Sivtzov were certainly not of that calibre before joining Sky.

So yes, Brad lied big time on his motives to go to SKY. Or, should we say 'bend the truth'? If that suits you better I will change that Jimmy. For me it is lying.

And, do note too: Brad was at Garmin but was training with British Cycling [Rod Ellingworth], lost all that weight with the help of British Cycling [Nigel whats his name], under supervision of super Dave? I do not believe in coincidences given the history of cycling.

Siutsou's Belarusian, and depending on his stance may not take kindly to being thought of as "That Russian Bloke".

I'll disagree; it's not the only point. 2010 was their first year as a pro-team, no-one expected or believed they would win a GT in their first year. However they have done in their third, so clearly Bradley he's going to Sky to win GTs has been born out. Might he have done it at Garmin? A distinct possibility, but the fact he has at Sky surely just blows any accusation of lying out of the water.

The thing was, though, Wiggins was 29. Moving to a first year set-up which did not have a strong GT backup squad, away from an established team with a number of decent if not top-level climbers, had to be considered a gamble for a GT contender who had his breakthrough late. After all, if Sky didn't build a crack GT squad from scratch quickly, he could have been too old or over his peak by the time they were ready to deliver him what he needed to win the Tour.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Cool...... What exactly was the difference then between Sky 2010 & Sky 2012?

Ohh I know this one...wait, is it Dr Ferrari? Do I get a prize?

 

[Haynzie]

I'm with Dr Maserati on this, Im afraid Jimmy. No doubt...2010 Garmin a stronger GT team than 2010 Sky.

 

[will10]

Back to Brailsford approaching Wiggins during 2009 Tour. I thought a rest day for a rider would be for actually resting and maybe race strategy meetings. Turns out it is a good day to shop around for a new contract because all the industry people are in town.

I also thought, during a race, a rider would focus all their energies on winning the race. But instead clandestine meetings between opportunistic riders and poaching team managers is the norm. During a race?? 2009 Tour ran July 4 – 26. Wiggins met Brailsford in Limoges on July 13. Why not wait 2 weeks until the race is over? What a circus!

I have a lot to learn. Will try to keep up.

The Tour is THE place to enquire with riders as to their availability for next season. Been that way for years.

See Jakob Fuglsang last year, for example. Didn't get to race any GTs because the team learned that he was moving, so didn't want another squad to get his WT points.

Vaughters had it right when he suggested there should be a one month transfer window in August: Thor wants to ride with BMC - fine - off you go and ride the Vuelta with your new team. No more half-hearted going through the motions with your soon to be ex-team through the last month or two of the year.

I'm with Dr Maserati on this, Im afraid Jimmy. No doubt...2010 Garmin a stronger GT team than 2010 Sky.

Undoubtably. This compared with this ? Gimme a break Jimmy.

 

[northstar]

On Wiggins, again the reason why it was on a rest day and all hush hush was because he was meeting Brailsford to join Sky in 2010, even though he had a contract for 2010 with Garmin. Quite rare for contract breaks in cycling.

Most deals are done by agents, who often represent many riders.
As for the rest day, a lot of riders do not like them. For big names there's a press conference and lots of people drop by so they get little R&R.

Ok, I will take my misplaced outrage and move on now

 

[JimmyFingers]

The thing was, though, Wiggins was 29. Moving to a first year set-up which did not have a strong GT backup squad, away from an established team with a number of decent if not top-level climbers, had to be considered a gamble for a GT contender who had his breakthrough late. After all, if Sky didn't build a crack GT squad from scratch quickly, he could have been too old or over his peak by the time they were ready to deliver him what he needed to win the Tour.

It's somewhat of a moot point given they did build a scratch GT squad and they have won a GT with the rider who said he joined the team to win GTs, but yes, of course there was a element of the unknown.

I am surprised at the eyebrows being raised at the move however. Given that Sky is a quasi-national trade team, and that the track set up and the national road set-up overlap significantly with personnel and infrastructure with it, it is a natural, easy and logical decision for Bradley. One of the clear reasons Cavendish joined a year later was that within the Sky set up they could help prepare specifically for the Olympics, which was the same for Bradley: clearly riding within a quasi-national set up is going to help with your national ambitions. I can further cite the time and support Thomas and Kennaugh received in their Olympic ambitions.

And clearly Sky were desperate to court him after his break out performance on the Tour. He was the poster boy and real GT contender they needed, so he would have got the full treatment to get him to sign. He would have honeyed words poured into his ear promised the full backing and support needed to win it, and to build a team around him. Was he getting the same words from Garmin? Who knows, but given how things have unfolded it's wrong to criticise him for making a bad decision surely? And inaccurate to say he was lying.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I'm with Dr Maserati on this, Im afraid Jimmy. No doubt...2010 Garmin a stronger GT team than 2010 Sky.

I suggest you read everything I have written up until now regarding this, it has been going on for a few pages and with various people, Maserati was rather late to the party and only picked up a point that other people were already making, although he may enjoy you giving him the credit for it

 

[Haynzie]

Ah apologies, Jimmy, if I've missed something, or misrepresented you. I've only read back a couple of pages, although I have very intermittently dipped into this mammoth, and somewhat recursive, thread.

I can't keep up with this. Besides I don't often get the chance to blow some time shooting the breeze. This'll probably be my lot until the weekend

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It's somewhat of a moot point given they did build a scratch GT squad and they have won a GT with the rider who said he joined the team to win GTs, but yes, of course there was a element of the unknown.

I am surprised at the eyebrows being raised at the move however. Given that Sky is a quasi-national trade team, and that the track set up and the national road set-up overlap significantly with personnel and infrastructure with it, it is a natural, easy and logical decision for Bradley. One of the clear reasons Cavendish joined a year later was that within the Sky set up they could help prepare specifically for the Olympics, which was the same for Bradley: clearly riding within a quasi-national set up is going to help with your national ambitions. I can further cite the time and support Thomas and Kennaugh received in their Olympic ambitions.

And clearly Sky were desperate to court him after his break out performance on the Tour. He was the poster boy and real GT contender they needed, so he would have got the full treatment to get him to sign. He would have honeyed words poured into his ear promised the full backing and support needed to win it, and to build a team around him. Was he getting the same words from Garmin? Who knows, but given how things have unfolded it's wrong to criticise him for making a bad decision surely? And inaccurate to say he was lying.

I don't think the move was a surprise; it was a very protracted affair but the outcome was obvious, a bit like the endless Cristiano Ronaldo transfer saga. It was still a big gamble and the 2010 Sky squad did not have the depth to back a guy coming into his first GT as a leader.

Cervélo were able to mix goals in their first GTs, because with Sastre there was an element of "been there, done that". He could look after himself to a much greater extent (and could also marshal his resources better because he knew what to do as a team leader to do so). Sky needed to hit the ground running, and there's nothing wrong with that. It meant they started the season working a sprint train and a one-day race squad, but it also meant they spent less time working on the GC team, and came in to the Tour understrength. But they wouldn't be the first or the last team to do that; both USPS and T-Mobile didn't have a great time at their first Tour.

The thing was that Wiggins was going to be 30 when the 2010 Tour rolled around. He wasn't some young prospect, he was a guy who was supposed to be in his peak years, so he had to really believe in the Sky project and really believe that they'd build a Tour winning team within a year or two, because he couldn't afford many "lost years" otherwise he'd be past his peak when the team were ready to support him. It's a moot point because they were able to do so in 2012, but in late 2009 when Wiggins made that move, there really wasn't the knowledge that that would happen. The 2010 squad was not exactly earth-shattering (plus the knowledge that the team was targeting Wiggins and that they wanted to focus on a British TdF winner, even if that was just PR spin at the time, may have put off other top-tier talent from joining on the basis that they wouldn't get the leadership positions they coveted because of not having the right flag next to their name, a bit like Kreuziger sharing leadership with Nibali, Basso and Pellizotti at Liquigas) and with regards to GC support, it was a step backwards from Garmin at that point. With a 2010 Tour route less suited to him and with his level as a GC talent still pretty untested (he'd never entered a GT as leader).

Given that Sky were able to develop into a Tour-winning team inside three years, it wasn't a problem. But if it had taken one or two more years, he could have squandered his best years with a support squad that was still being developed, and then no longer having the level to win the Tour when the team could deliver it to him.

A bit like I said about Evans' transformation as a rider; I felt he built up the confidence and tactical nous too late to take advantage of his peak years and he had squandered his best chance to win the Tour in 2008, but he proved me wrong as he still had the one chance left, and was smart and brave enough to take it.

 

[will10]

My feelings at the time Sky was set-up was that they were not looking at targetting GC at GTs. That there is a stage-hunting team with a bone-fide Classics contender in Flecha.

Then Bradley popped his head above the parapet in July 2009 (when recruitment for Sky's inaugural year was well underway) and Brailsford splashed a lot of cash for his marquee name. In fact thinking about it, if Wiggins had replicated his 2009 form and been up there in the 2010 Tour, we would've been talking about why Brailsford had paid all that money to buy out Wiggo's contract, only to support him in the mountains as well as Lotto did for Evans.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ohh I know this one...wait, is it Dr Ferrari? Do I get a prize?

Actually, I was asking a serious question - so I will ignore the deflection.
Try again.

I suggest you read everything I have written up until now regarding this, it has been going on for a few pages and with various people, Maserati was rather late to the party and only picked up a point that other people were already making, although he may enjoy you giving him the credit for it

I have no idea what you are on about in the above, and quite frankly don't care.

Let me say, you appear to be taking things rather personally and are quick to take any criticism (or even questioning) of Sky as something (I am not quite sure) about doping.

 

[BroDeal]

It's somewhat of a moot point given they did build a scratch GT squad and they have won a GT with the rider who said he joined the team to win GTs, but yes, of course there was a element of the unknown.

Wiggins had no way of knowing this is 2009. That 2012 sucess relied on the suspicious performance of a Dr. Ferrari client and the even more suspicious performance of a nobody who appears to be have been a pity hire. Take them out and where is the mighty TdF team that Wiggins needed to leave Garmin for?

By contrast, Garmin won a GT and it came at the end of four consecutive years of top tens in the Tour GC with four different riders.

The question comes down to why did Wiggins lie? Clearly he was not trying to fool actual cycling fans. All of them know that Garmin was better suited for a GC rider who wanted to ride clean. The lies were obviously for rubes who would believe whatever they were told without critical thought.

 

[BroDeal]

My feelings at the time Sky was set-up was that they were not looking at targetting GC at GTs. That there is a stage-hunting team with a bone-fide Classics contender in Flecha.

Which is exactly what I said. One only has to look at the riders they hired to figure this out. Whatever they may have told the press for PR reasons did not carry through to actual contracts with riders.

The Sky fanboys refuse to look at reality.

 

[Haynzie]

Forgive my ignorance, but who is Martin Vickers? Not a name I've encountered.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Totally agree with this, training as preperation is generally better than racing (with the previso that a certain number of races are needed, but these have to be competitive, not just using them as training).

You cant do intervals training within racing, and this is one of the most effective training methods there is.

Sorry but bolded is a load of utter BS.

 

[coinneach]

I feel this thread has descended into some sort of parallel universe.

Can anyone actually remember how the Tour went in 2012?
For Sky?
For Garmin??

Maybe Sky didn't start off with a tour winning team: remember Nibali regretting now at turning them down in 09?
Its something you develop over time.
Wiggins made his choice and so did Braisford.
Turns out they were both right, but hey ho, they could have been wrong.
Big deal: get over it

 

[peterst6906]

Sorry but bolded is a load of utter BS.

10chars

 

[The Hitch]

Vaughters had it right when he suggested there should be a one month transfer window in August: Thor wants to ride with BMC - fine - off you go and ride the Vuelta with your new team. No more half-hearted going through the motions with your soon to be ex-team through the last month or two of the year.

.

Why go all the way around when you can just cut through the middle. When doing the wt thing give teams the points totals of the riders they actually had, not the riders they went out and bought.

No ****ing about in September then.

 

[BroDeal]

Can anyone actually remember how the Tour went in 2012?
For Sky?
For Garmin??

Can anyone remember how the Giro went in 2012?
For Sky??
For Garmin?

 

[xcleigh]

Sorry but bolded is a load of utter BS.

I think it would be a struggle to do structured, progressive interval training within a chaotic environment of a race wouldn't it? Difficult to do structured work and rest periods within a fast moving peleton? Having the control to do that type of workout outside of a race is surely the best way to do your intervals. But if you do have examples of intervals you can do within a race or pros that do this type of workout while racing I would be genuinely interested to know. (might help me improve my pitiful race speed )

 

[coinneach]

Can anyone remember how the Giro went in 2012?
For Sky??
For Garmin?

Fair point, but I bet everyone at Garmin wishes it was the other way round.

And just about no one in Sky would swop

Oh and for Wiggins & Sky the objective in 09 was Tour de France within 5 years