Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dear Wiggo]

In South Africa though, if testers turn up on your property univited you can just shoot them.

Assuming they make it past the 3 meter high, barbed wire topped walls and security camera monitored gates.

 

[martinvickers]

In South Africa though, if testers turn up on your property univited you can just shoot them.

touché

ten characters

 

[MartinGT]

I have already explained to you that he does not catch it again: he will likely always have it in his system and it will flair up from time to time, requiring treatment. Perhaps you were away for a while, or just chose to ignore facts when they do not suit your positions.

This is the same for most people who are unlucky enough to suffer from the condition.

What is more interesting is to question whether the treatment ends up giving him a benefit: because his body keeps on making red blood cells it thinks it still needs to make up for what the parasite has consumed.

But the main benefit he has is spending childhood at altitude in Kenya. He is African and proud of it, so its not surprising he goes back there when its winter in Europe

That proud he wear the Union Flag on his kit. In his first season it was the Kenyan flag.

 

[MartinGT]

I have a huge amount of respect for Bassons and so when he speaks I take him seriously. And while you can read stuff into other riders comments (imo to the point of convincing yourself of something that isn't there) I think this interview makes interesting reading.



http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/christophe-bassons-where-the-war-on-drugs-is-going-wrong

I dont really get what Bassons is saying there. Is he saying Wiggins and Froome are just too skinny to have done it clean?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I dont really get what Bassons is saying there. Is he saying Wiggins and Froome are just too skinny to have done it clean?

I inferred that he was suspect that riders that are getting skinny are also getting faster. i.e. For TTing.

 

[SundayRider]

I inferred that he was suspect that riders that are getting skinny are also getting faster. i.e. For TTing.

This - very rare that the best climber in a Tour is also the 2nd best TTer ala Froome.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

This - very rare that the best climber in a Tour is also the 2nd best TTer ala Froome.

I think think of quite a few editions where the best TTer is one of the best climbers (sometimes the best) so I am not sure your logic really holds.

 

[SundayRider]

I think think of quite a few editions where the best TTer is one of the best climbers (sometimes the best) so I am not sure your logic really holds.

really? Better even than the so called 'specialists'?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

really? Better even than the so called 'specialists'?

Yep. Winning the Tour by winning the TTs and watching in the mountains has been going on for years. Some people seem to think that long TTs are a new innovation. Take a look at Jacques Anquetil aka Monsieur Chrono.

 

[SundayRider]

Yep. Winning the Tour by winning the TTs and watching in the mountains has been going on for years. Some people seem to think that long TTs are a new innovation. Take a look at Jacques Anquetil aka Monsieur Chrono.

Yes but Froome clearly wasn't watching !

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Yes but Froome clearly wasn't watching !

Well, I think he was given he did not ride after Valverde. He looked like he had the legs to catch him.

 

[Bicycle]

The Tour is nearly always won by the guy who is pretty much the best (or at least top 3) at both TT and Mountains. Hinault, Lemond, Fignon, Indurain, Lance.

Delgado, Pantani the exceptions.

 

[zalacain]

Gaul & Bahamontes (although Gaul did the occasional good ITT)

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I think of quite a few editions where the best TTer is one of the best climbers (sometimes the best) so I am not sure your logic really holds.

Armstrong was never that slim, but thanks for the reminder anyways, I do scence you are evolving Perico!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

van Impe.

Back to Froome: it's not so much that he's the 2nd best in the time trials. It's that he's the 2nd best in the time trials despite looking mighty ungainly on the bike with his scrawny frame and long arms. Typically the best climbers are small and compact (eg Pozzovivo, Antón) or, if they're taller, slender and bony (eg Rasmussen, Andy). Typically the best time triallists are much more imposing physical specimens, with sleek aero positions and thunderous leg muscles to put out that kind of power. Being the best GT rider has always been about balancing these out. While the improvement in Wiggins' ITT (which is marked) has come suspiciously in line with a significant loss of weight, the fact remains that Wiggins has excellent form on the bike (his TT position is absolutely top notch) and his frame is more built for ITTs than Froome - even after dieting himself down to eating disorder levels, he still weighed notably more than many other GT contenders and pretty much all 'pure climbers'. And because he has always been known as an ITT rider, the successes of the slimline version of Wiggins in ITTs don't sound the klaxons in quite the same way as a guy like Froome, who doesn't have the same impressive aero form and possesses the kind of frame that, when allayed to his awkward-looking position, makes him look like a harvestman spider on a bike.

The aesthetic point of view is obviously highly subjective. After all, guys with some hideous techniques have become top riders. Fernando Escartín, Paco Mancebo, Juan Mauricio Soler... but in "the race of truth", this is amplified. Those inefficient, awkward techniques show up much more, and people with anything less than exemplary technique performing at the top level are much, much more rare among élite time triallists. A lot of it is simply that Froome looks like he should be bad at time trialling therefore it's surprising that he isn't, and some of it is tied in to his magical "my contract is due" transformation in the 2011 Vuelta, where he suddenly turned into a guy who could out-TT Cancellara, and a lot of it is extrapolation from the history of cycling. Guys with frames like Indurain or Ullrich: good at time trial. Guys with frames like Pantani or Rasmussen: bad at time trial. It's no more an exact science than licking your finger and holding it up to the wind to assess the direction, but when allayed with other factors about Froome, his time trial ability raises suspicions.

After all, we accept Lucho Herrera's statement about watching riders with fat asses passing him on the climbs as indicative that at that point heavier riders (who you'd expect to be more TT-oriented) outclimbing specialist climbers = good reason for suspecting doping. So why shouldn't we accept a statement about watching riders with their bones sticking out of their stretched skin like spikes (who you'd expect to be more climb-oriented) outclimbing specialist climbers = good reason for suspecting doping?

 

[roundabout]

I don't know. Froome could TT reasonably well pre-2011 Vuelta.

 

[Parker]

Gaul & Bahamontes (although Gaul did the occasional good ITT)

When Gaul won the Tour he won all three TTs.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't know. Froome could TT reasonably well pre-2011 Vuelta.

He also put together better TT results the longer the TT was. But then, on occasion he could climb reasonably well pre-2011 Vuelta too. The jump in TTing was no more ridiculous than the jump in climbing.

He just was never competing with the likes of Cancellara, whereas now he's beating them, and looking as aerodynamic as a spider with its front legs in the air while he does so.

 

[red_flanders]

I think think of quite a few editions where the best TTer is one of the best climbers (sometimes the best) so I am not sure your logic really holds.

Sine the advent of EPO and Blood Doping, yes. Not before.

 

[will10]

I don't know. Froome could TT reasonably well pre-2011 Vuelta.

Not really. And certainly nothing that suggested beating Cancellara in long ITTs would become the norm.

 

[coinneach]

Not really. And certainly nothing that suggested beating Cancellara in long ITTs would become the norm.

Yeh, but Cancellara is not a fixed point that you can measure everything against.

Everything points to him giving up on blood and like Basso and others, not being quite the same rider again.

 

[the sceptic]

Yeh, but Cancellara is not a fixed point that you can measure everything against.

Everything points to him giving up on blood and like Basso and others, not being quite the same rider again.

So he stopped doping at the same time he started to get destroyed by sir Wiggo and Froome?

 

[coinneach]

So he stopped doping at the same time he started to get destroyed by sir Wiggo and Froome?

A bit before, but the point I am making is that you can´t just use him, or anyone else, as an unchanging reference when comparing performance.

 

[Cyivel]

Question.

So what do people think Sky are doing that makes them so much better than others compared to expectations.

They are doping but nobody else is (don't buy that one)
They are being given more of a license to dope due to some sort of UCI help
They are using something nobody else is
Or something else?

 

[SundayRider]

Question.

So what do people think Sky are doing that makes them so much better than others compared to expectations.

They are doping but nobody else is (don't buy that one)
They are being given more of a license to dope due to some sort of UCI help
They are using something nobody else is
Or something else?

Could be a bit of all them really.