Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[andy1234]

So, Marc Madiot, Roger Legeay, Eric Boyer, Bob Stapleton, Valerio Piva and their subsequent medical staffs are all a bunch of hacks who never tested the Bradster properly? He would have had to had the same aerobic attributes back then but somehow it never emerged on the tests?

What a bunch of amateurs.

Those tests showed Wiggins produced significantly less than 6.7 w/kg, which in those days was all that mattered.
6.1, 6.2, just didn't cut it......

Now it does.

 

[mastersracer]

10% reduction in power outputs?

Take it up with Ross Tucker:

"What we are seeing now, in the last three or four years, is that the speed of the front of the peloton [of] men like Bradley Wiggins, Chris Froome and Vincenzo Nibali, is about 10% down compared to that generation and now the power output at the front is about 6W/kg." – Ross Tucker (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18921784)

 

[Ferminal]

Take it up with Ross Tucker:

"What we are seeing now, in the last three or four years, is that the speed of the front of the peloton [of] men like Bradley Wiggins, Chris Froome and Vincenzo Nibali, is about 10% down compared to that generation and now the power output at the front is about 6W/kg." – Ross Tucker (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18921784)

There are about 5 instances in the last 10 years of riders doing 6.6 W/kg on a long climb.

 

[mastersracer]

There are about 5 instances in the last 10 years of riders doing 6.6 W/kg on a long climb.

Who said anything about 10 years? Please document a single, long climb showing a Sky rider - Froome, Wiggins, etc. - with this sort of power output.

Tucker on Froome: Vuelta TT (47km) rode at 5.8 W/kg for 55 minutes.

Auriel Forrester, Sports Scientist, SRM: on 2012 TOur.

“Dr Forrester says his data shows that he is riding consistently. His first two climbs are done at 320 and 322 watts and the final ride is 360 watts. This means on the final climb his power to weight ratio is 5.2W/kg. "Those figures are where you expect that rider to be."
She also says that - being privy to the secret data - if you compare Nibali to the other riders when they have been climbing, his figures are comparable.
"They're all ballpark, similar figures. None of those would stick out as spurious."

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Those tests showed Wiggins produced significantly less than 6.7 w/kg, which in those days was all that mattered.
6.1, 6.2, just didn't cut it......

Now it does.

Okay, I am convinced. Boyer/Legaey looked at those numbers and knew Brad was the new LeMond, even 0.4w/k better, and then they let him go to another team.

Live really is a fairytale.

Take it up with Ross Tucker:

Is he still in cycling?

 

[Ferminal]

Where did I say Sky have ridden at 6.6W/kg or at an "unbelievable level"?

When you said this:

5. What is often overlooked. The 10% reduction in power outputs over the last few years.

I assumed you were comparing "the last few years" to the several years prior.

There is no evidence to suggest this is the case, sure there has been a decline, but 10% is a gross overstatement.

 

[mastersracer]

Thank you Hitch. You put it more eloquently than I did.

I'm not going to bother to respond to Froome or MR after this. Good luck.

I wouldn't want to respond either if my claims were refuted by a prominent sports scientist and the manager of the team.

 

[andy1234]

Okay, I am convinced. Boyer/Legaey looked at those numbers and knew Brad was the new LeMond, even 0.4w/k better, and then they let him go to another team.

Live really is a fairytale.
Is he still in cycling?

LeMond would have been mid pack material in the 6.7 generation.
In fact, he was, at even lesser power numbers.

 

[mastersracer]

Where did I say Sky have ridden at 6.6W/kg or at an "unbelievable level"?

When you said this:



I assumed you were comparing "the last few years" to the several years prior.

There is no evidence to suggest this is the case, sure there has been a decline, but 10% is a gross overstatement.

Where did I say Sky have ridden at 6.6W/kg or at an "unbelievable level"?

When you said this:



I assumed you were comparing "the last few years" to the several years prior.

There is no evidence to suggest this is the case, sure there has been a decline, but 10% is a gross overstatement.

take your figure of 6.6 w.kg, Take Tucker's estimate of 6 w/kg. That is a 9.09% decline. Your figure of 6.6 and Froome's 2011 Vuelta ITT - the differences is a 12.12% decline in power - how is that an exaggeration?

 

[Ferminal]

take your figure of 6.6 w.kg, Take Tucker's estimate of 6 w/kg. That is a 9.09% decline. Your figure of 6.6 and Froome's 2011 Vuelta ITT - the differences is a 12.12% decline in power - how is that an exaggeration?

6.6 W/kg isn't my number, as I said, it was a very rare occurrence since the EPO test (or maybe even 50%). I doubt you can find an estimate anywhere near that level since the 2006 Giro.

I don't even know what time period you want to compare but if you want to identify trends it would be much better to look at the entire data set rather than just picking a few numbers out which have been estimated by different people/methods.

Edit: You could say "the best performances recently of GT winners have been 10% below the best four or five single performances of the last decade" if that is what you mean.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Take it up with Ross Tucker:

"What we are seeing now, in the last three or four years, is that the speed of the front of the peloton [of] men like Bradley Wiggins, Chris Froome and Vincenzo Nibali, is about 10% down compared to that generation and now the power output at the front is about 6W/kg." – Ross Tucker (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18921784)

So, Brajkovic is at 6w/k and Nibali at 5.2? Please talk to the hack and learn her 360 divided by 60kg = 6w/k
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/races/tour-de-france/2012/stage-11.aspx#.USY7jx0bd20

BS.

Keep m coming. PRracer.

 

[mastersracer]

6.6 W/kg isn't my number, as I said, it was a very rare occurrence since the EPO test (or maybe even 50%). I doubt you can find an estimate anywhere near that level since the 2006 Giro.

I don't even know what time period you want to compare but if you want to identify trends it would be much better to look at the entire data set rather than just picking a few numbers out which have been estimated by different people/methods.

Edit: You could say "the best performances recently of GT winners have been 10% below the best four or five single performances of the last decade" if that is what you mean.

whichever comparative norm we choose, the fact remains that the Sky riders that are routinely called out on this forum are not putting out power #s that are in themselves indicative of doping suspicion and that they are significantly slower. The claims about Sky extraterrestrial power is simply a myth.

 

[Ferminal]

Sure you can say that (I agree to a large extent), but if you're pulling numbers out of thin air or cherrypicking, your case is no better than theirs.

 

[Netserk]

What is the last few years? IMO the last few years are less than five years ago.

And I don't think it was as normal to ride 6.6 in 2007, as it was to ride 6.0 in 2012.

 

[mastersracer]

What is the last few years? IMO the last few years are less than five years ago.

And I don't think it was as normal to ride 6.6 in 2007, as it was to ride 6.0 in 2012.

The time period was due to a comment by Ross Tucker that I quoted (and linked). It would be 2008-present, approx. What matters is that there is no Sky rider performance that has been documented that indicates a suspicious power output - not Froome, not Wiggins, in particular, who are called out here for extraterrestrial performances routinely.

I'm not cherry picking numbers - Ross Tucker has ample analyses of key grand tour climbs and time trials documenting this declining trend. He has no dog in the fight as far as I know and there are also ample SRM files available online from key players. Nibali's files are a prime example, as he lost almost no time to the leaders on climbs last year, with the exception of one when he lost under 30 seconds due to a cramp.

Coggan's critical power plot also shows Wiggins' performance is self-consistent over his entire career. But, it seems most people who have responded to that plot do not understand the notion of a critical power plot and think there is something suspicious about plotting performances over various durations (which in fact is the entire basis of such a plot).

 

[Netserk]

The time period was due to a comment by Ross Tucker that I quoted (and linked). It would be 2008-present, approx. What matters is that there is no Sky rider performance that has been documented that indicates a suspicious power output - not Froome, not Wiggins, in particular, who are called out here for extraterrestrial performances routinely.

I'm not cherry picking numbers - Ross Tucker has ample analyses of key grand tour climbs and time trials documenting this declining trend. He has no dog in the fight as far as I know and there are also ample SRM files available online from key players. Nibali's files are a prime example, as he lost almost no time to the leaders on climbs last year, with the exception of one when he lost under 30 seconds due to a cramp.

Coggan's critical power plot also shows Wiggins' performance is self-consistent over his entire career. But, it seems most people who have responded to that plot do not understand the notion of a critical power plot and think there is something suspicious about plotting performances over various durations (which in fact is the entire basis of such a plot).

Is it correctly understood then that from 2008 to 2012(13) the power output dropped 10% ?

 

[Benotti69]

I wouldn't want to respond either if my claims were refuted by a prominent sports scientist and the manager of the team.

In pro sport these type of people are not trust worthy. Why would you trust what they say?

 

[Parrulo]

i think it's hilarious to see people claiming a 10% decrease when the sky duo+ nibali did the peyresourde just an handful of seconds slower than contador and rasmussen did in 07

 

[BroDeal]

Funny how all these guys, Wiggins, Froome, Rogers, Porte, all discovered they are the equivalents of Hinault, LeMond, Fignon, and Mottet. That does not even pass the laugh test. We are not talking about generalized performances by generalized riders. We are talking about Chris Freakin' Froome, a nobody at large who was barely good enough to be hired by a Pro Tour team; Mick "Ferrari and Freiberg" Rogers, who now performs better than than he did when he was under the care of The Myth; Brad "Too Cool for School" Wigans, who deceives the public by using an off-season fat weight to claim he lost twelve kilos; and D!ck Porte, whose biggest achievement is placing high in the Giro as the result of the leaders allowing a fifty-six man break to get away. Yet, masterracer would have us believe that these chumps suddenly found out that they are all the physical equivalents of legends in the sport.

 

[Parrulo]

all that while riding for the same team

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Funny how all these guys, Wiggins, Froome, Rogers, Porte, all discovered they are the equivalents of Hinault, LeMond, Fignon, and Mottet.

Bro - No-one on the pro sky side of the argument is claiming that Rogers and Porte are the equivalents of Hinault et al. (Obviously, by implication, such claims are made of Wiggo and Froome.)

It is regularly pointed out and regularly ignored that for tactical reasons, Rogers and Porte kept the pace high until the start of the final climb, then peeled off and coasted home, losing quite a lot of time. This is what doms do when their leader is in the MJ, rather than measuring their efforts to maximise their own performance.

Porte gained 12 minutes in the break in the 2010 Giro. Without this, he would have finished 20 rather than 7 minutes down in the final GC. For a man in his early days in GTs, this demonstrates a non-trivial amount of ability.

They could all still be doping, though!

 

[maltiv]

i think it's hilarious to see people claiming a 10% decrease when the sky duo+ nibali did the peyresourde just an handful of seconds slower than contador and rasmussen did in 07

They didn't know about the positive effects of beetroot juice back then

 

[thehog]

"The attack won't last. They can't ride faster than the 460w we've been riding for the last 4 hours".

I wonder if Rogers forgot the 10% reduction rule when he made that statement?

 

[BroDeal]

It is regularly pointed out and regularly ignored that for tactical reasons, Rogers and Porte kept the pace high until the start of the final climb, then peeled off and coasted home, losing quite a lot of time. This is what doms do when their leader is in the MJ, rather than measuring their efforts to maximise their own performance.

Sometimes they "coasted home" while laughing as they rode through the debris of contenders.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

"The attack won't last. They can't ride faster than the 460w we've been riding for the last 4 hours".

I wonder if Rogers forgot the 10% reduction rule when he made that statement?

Rogers weighs 80 kiloos so that would be within the realms of believable PR BS.

Ooops, just forgot he was a lean as he was at age 16.