Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Ferminal]

Can't ride the Giro on a Conti team unfortunately.

 

[Ripper]

Froome, Rogers and Porte have yet to show they are capable of winning a GT.
They have shown they are capable of helping Wiggins win a GT though.

One rider with the physiology capable of winning, several riders with the physiology capable of helping.

Happy to help.

Um, Froome has shown he is capable. Whether he actually does or not is another question. Having said this, he has placed second twice now, which is better than Piggo's 'track' record in GTs prior to his win.

Now Piggo's ego is capable of winning a GT without a bike

Rogers and Porte may not have demo'd GT winning ability, but their 'improvement', along with Broome's and Piggo's, make one dodgy scenario.

 

[JRanton]

Wasn't that the day that Eddy Bosen Hagen had everyone in the red-zone before they even got to the final climb?

If memory serves (and the cycling news report is correct) Rogers dropped off the pace before Bosen Hagen did, as the former wasn't in the lead group with 4k to go. (It was only a 6k climb, so if Rogers did any work on it, this was quite limited, and the cycling news report doesn't mention him in the latter stages, whereas mention of EBH is prominent.)

Rogers most likely benefitted from having ridden a more even pace, and overtook riders who'd seriously overcooked it following EBH. EBH finished over 7 minutes down, paying the price for his efforts on the run-in to the final climb.

Rogers was only 30s ahead of that known mountain goat Cancellera at the finish, so there's nothing obviously superhuman about his climbing that day.

Your memory is playing tricks with you. Rogers was just behind EBH all the way leading into the climb.

Here's the footage from the climb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Web2PBhZ3T0

After shredding the group to bits on the first half of the climb Rogers swings off. But there's a twist. He isn't finished yet! Porte takes over for the next 2km and Rogers can be seen accelerating past amongst others Scarponi (14:00 on the vid) and later Samu Sanchez (18:55).

NOT NORMAL!

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

After shredding the group to bits on the first half of the climb Rogers swings off. But there's a twist. He isn't finished yet! Porte takes over for the next 2km and Rogers can be seen accelerating past amongst others Scarponi (14:00 on the vid) and later Samu Sanchez (18:55).

To my eye, it looks more like Scarpo and Sanchez were pedalling squares having completely blown rather than Rogers doing anything particularly impressive.

When Rogers overtakes Scarpo, he's still within 20s or so of the leaders, yet loses a further minute over the rest of the climb. And when he takes Sanchez, the two RSNT guys (#11 and #13) are also about to take him.

Conclusion, Rogers was going slower than the main contenders and his speed relative to Scarpo and Sanchez was due to them having a "shocker". Scarpo finished behind Cancellara on the stage, suggesting that he didn't have his best climbing legs with him that day.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

To my eye, it looks more like Scarpo and Sanchez were pedalling squares having completely blown rather than Rogers doing anything particularly impressive.

So, according to your logic it is perfectly normal Rogers is able to pedal by Sanchez when he has gone flat out for 2.5K in front of the lead group? You do know Sammy Sanchez is reknown for his climbing skills? To be sure of that.

When one thinks that is normal one must have loved the Lancelot - days. Great recuperation, absolutely normal.

My intent is the exchange of facts, logical deductions and good arguments.

So, let us do so.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

You do know Sammy Sanchez is reknown for his climbing skills?

Indeed, but he wasn't climbing very quickly that day his standards. He was beaten by Montfort and Roche and only 20s ahead of Cancellara. Not normal, one might say!

 

[Froome19]

So, according to your logic it is perfectly normal Rogers is able to pedal by Sanchez when he has gone flat out for 2.5K in front of the lead group? You do know Sammy Sanchez is reknown for his climbing skills? To be sure of that.

It was pretty obvious that Samu was not in his ideal form then.
But whatever suits you.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Indeed, but he wasn't climbing very quickly that day his standards. He was beaten by Montfort and Roche and only 20s ahead of Cancellara. Not normal, one might say!

Still waiting for:

My intent is the exchange of facts, logical deductions and good arguments

The SKY pr machine on full trothle, sad to see.

It was pretty obvious that Samu was not in his ideal form then.

Of course, that must be it. Given his season leading up to the Tour he must just have had a bad season Froome19.

Next please.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Fearless,

Facts:

1) Neither Montfort nor Roche are considered top rank climbers.

2) Cancellara is considered a poor climber.

3) Sanchez was beaten up the climb by Montfort and Roche.

4) Sanchez only beat Cancellara by 20s up the climb.

Logic:

If Sanchez is being beaten by second rate climbers and only just beating a poor climber then we conclude that his performance on the day was not that of a top climber.

Argument:

Assessing Rogers' performance that day relative to Sanchez and Scarponi is not meaningful, as all we can do is conclude that he was faster than two guys who usually climb well but didn't on the day in question.

Your mistake - in my view - is to assess Rogers' performance against the reputations of Scarponi and Sanchez, not their actual performances.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Boasson-Hagen says he will copy Wiggins recipe for success, and will go on a training-camp in Tenerife. Good thing he does not read this forum ..

I hope he only uses the location, and will not come back 5kilos lighter and way faster. I prefer him clean !

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Your mistake - in my view - is to assess Rogers' performance against the reputations of Scarponi and Sanchez, not their actual performances.

How about my assesment on Rogers', and Porte's, abilities to do that?

Freewheeling and beating known climbers with ease.

Absolutely normal. Without breathing. Ringabell. Ding ****.

Waiting for someone to come and point on the w/k, only, the starting point should be much more down the climb, it was 12 kilometres full gas, EPO time revisited.

 

[Ferminal]

Is Rogers really worth discussing?

 

[Netserk]

Is Rogers really worth discussing?

Does anyone think he is dirty? No discussion if everyone agrees that he is clean

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Does anyone think he is dirty? No discussion if everyone agrees that he is clean

Are you serious?

 

[Froome19]

The SKY pr machine on full trothle, sad to see.Of course, that must be it. Given his season leading up to the Tour he must just have had a bad season Froome19.

Next please.

WTF? Are you saying then he was in good form?

I wouldn't call coming
145th in the prologue (though not a specialist you would have expected more)
29th on the first stage where the finish should have suited more.
16th on a climb which should have suited him more than guys like Roche, Monfort, Brajkovic etc

Coming off a bad bruised ribs injury which made him miss crucial buildup at the Dauphine lagging behind.

Yeh I'll take your word for it, he was in good form.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Is Rogers really worth discussing?

He was part of the la Planche de Belle Filles coup d'etat but if you prefer I leave him out I will post asterixes in place nex time?

Yeh I'll take your word for it, he was in good form.

Grasping I see, next try.

 

[Netserk]

WTF? Are you saying then he was in good form?

I wouldn't call coming
145th in the prologue (though not a specialist you would have expected more)
29th on the first stage where the finish should have suited more.
16th on a climb which should have suited him more than guys like Roche, Monfort, Brajkovic etc

Coming off a bad bruised ribs injury which made him miss crucial buildup at the Dauphine lagging behind.

Yeh I'll take your word for it, he was in good form.

Agree. It was clear that Sanchez wasn't any near top form. After the Dauphine there was a lot of speculation whether or not he would even participate in the Tour.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Agree. It was clear that Sanchez wasn't any near top form. After the Dauphine there was a lot of speculation whether or not he would even participate in the Tour.

Yet by accident leaving out that stage where his hero Brad deliberately put his foot on the ground so he would not loose time on Cadel/Sanchez/Nibali?

Again, do a better job on PR boys. Sanchez was in big okay form after an altitude camp.

 

[Froome19]

Yet by accident leaving out that stage where his hero Brad deliberately put his foot on the ground so he would not loose time on Cadel/Sanchez/Nibali?

Doesn't show he was in good form though, Sanchez frequently comes top 5 in Ardennes. I only showed the stages where he performed disappointingly.

Again, do a better job on PR boys. Sanchez was in big okay form after an altitude camp.

Why do you seem to think that we should take your word for it, over logical fact?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Yet by accident leaving out that stage where his hero Brad deliberately put his foot on the ground so he would not loose time on Cadel/Sanchez/Nibali?

Again, do a better job on PR boys. Sanchez was in big okay form after an altitude camp.

Fearless,

The problem with this type of statement is that it implicitly assumes that form is fixed. Sanchez might have had the squits the day before the PDBF stage or have been going down the 'flu or experienced any number of factors that could have rendered him below par on the day in question or he simply misjudged his effort following Eddy BH and did a "fly and die".

His finishing position relative to Monfort, Roche and Cancellara strongly suggests that on the day, the Cycling Gods were not on his side, irrespective of what happened in the Dauphine or at his training camps.

 

[Parrulo]

so let me see if i get this straight.

first:
rogers performance was normal because he free wheeled to the finishing line after doing his work.

second:
i mention PDBF

third:
rogers performance is still normal because it is normal for him to go past guys like samu sanchez and scarponi which were giving their best to limit their losses, while free wheeling.

btw froome, sanchez was in really bad shape at the ardennes, so bad he won pais vasco in a convincingly way the week before. he was unlucky at AGR with a flat tyre and was part of the big group that sprinted for third in LBL.

now imo the ardennes are completely irrelevant for his form at the tour but you were using them to prove why he was in bad shape at the tour while saying that wasn't true at all.

 

[Netserk]

so let me see if i get this straight.

first:
rogers performance was normal because he free wheeled to the finishing line after doing his work.

second:
i mention PDBF

third:
rogers performance is still normal because it is normal for him to go past guys like samu sanchez and scarponi which were giving their best to limit their losses, while free wheeling.

btw froome, sanchez was in really bad shape at the ardennes, so bad he won pais vasco in a convincingly way the week before. he was unlucky at AGR with a flat tyre and was part of the big group that sprinted for third in LBL.

now imo the ardennes are completely irrelevant for his form at the tour but you were using them to prove why he was in bad shape at the tour while saying that wasn't true at all.

Sanchez was indeed in good shape in April, and Rogers performance in the Tour was of a doper, but I don't think Sanchez was in top form in the Tour.

 

[Froome19]

so let me see if i get this straight.

first:
rogers performance was normal because he free wheeled to the finishing line after doing his work.

second:
i mention PDBF

third:
rogers performance is still normal because it is normal for him to go past guys like samu sanchez and scarponi which were giving their best to limit their losses, while free wheeling.

btw froome, sanchez was in really bad shape at the ardennes, so bad he won pais vasco in a convincingly way the week before. he was unlucky at AGR with a flat tyre and was part of the big group that sprinted for third in LBL.

now imo the ardennes are completely irrelevant for his form at the tour but you were using them to prove why he was in bad shape at the tour while saying that wasn't true at all.

I never used the Ardennes to prove anything, don't really get what you mean.

Rogers ride was phenomenal all the way throughout the Tour, I can't deny that and I won't try to. I am just trying to ensure facts aren't exaggerated all that much. The way I saw it Rogers could have come Top 10 in the Tour and rivaled the climbing of guys like Brajkovic and Zubeldia.

 

[thehog]

“In the big mountain stages, you never see the (team) leader surrounded by three or four domestiques. He usually finishes the climb on his own. That wasn’t the case during the big period of EPO,” said McQuaid.

 

[JRanton]

“In the big mountain stages, you never see the (team) leader surrounded by three or four domestiques. He usually finishes the climb on his own. That wasn’t the case during the big period of EPO,” said McQuaid.

The funniest thing is that he said that only a day or two before the Joux Plane stage in the Dauphine!