Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Mar 18, 2009
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‘I’ve nothing to hide,’ Brailsford said. ‘There is nothing I won’t talk about. We needed some experience. That’s why we decided to go and get him. Has he been a good doctor? Brilliant. The guy really understands it’s not about doping, it’s about genuine medical practice.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...attle-cyclings-drug-demons--Paul-Kimmage.html

We needed experience...that's why we decided to go and get him doesn't that rather contradict the 'we had to hire someone in a panic' theory?

As for the stuff about 'its not about doping its about good medical practice' words fail me - surprised he didn't just stick 2 fingers up at kimmage and laugh
 
May 26, 2009
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SundayRider said:
“How many teams are doing 25 minutes of threshold training at altitude? Do they look at our strength? We do our jobs. We’re professional,” he said. “Everyone used to laugh at us when we started to ride our trainers after the stages. Now 90 percent of the peloton is doing it. We’re trend-setters.” Richie Porte.

I'm laughing as actually doing treshold at altitude is researched quite a bit. There is a reason you live high, train low.

It's just one of those times where a Sky rider is saying something about training which is either wrong or discutable.
 
May 26, 2009
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bianchigirl said:
‘I’ve nothing to hide,’ Brailsford said. ‘There is nothing I won’t talk about. We needed some experience. That’s why we decided to go and get him. Has he been a good doctor? Brilliant. The guy really understands it’s not about doping, it’s about genuine medical practice.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...attle-cyclings-drug-demons--Paul-Kimmage.html

We needed experience...that's why we decided to go and get him doesn't that rather contradict the 'we had to hire someone in a panic' theory?

As for the stuff about 'its not about doping its about good medical practice' words fail me - surprised he didn't just stick 2 fingers up at kimmage and laugh

So they did know he was a doctor and manager at Rabo, yet somehow they missed he was the team doctor of Rasmussen and failed to do a simple check if he was involved with those issues.

But hey, it's just the doctor working with your biggest assets. Of course you don't do a thorough background check, why the need? It's not like Dave saw with his own eyes what happened with Millar and the doctors at Cofidis :rolleyes:
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Taken from the Nibali SRM-thread:

Winterfold said:
Without wanting to perpetuate a Skyborg not Skyborg debate there is sufficient flexibility in the rules of road racing that at some point someone will develop a set of tactics that are superior to riding a HC climb like a team pursuit and things will move on.

Those advocating banning powermeters should note that they are not used on the track so presumably Sky/BC's team pursuit tactic will work without them on an HC climb (I see a long line of guys in Sky casual gear standing on the road next to the yellow and white km stones, moving a pace up or down according to schedule)...
Do u recall what Wiggins said after the Dauphinee last year?

"Someone would attack and Mick (Sky rider Michael Rogers) would say, 'Just leave them. He can't sustain that,'" Wiggins said. "It's not possible to sustain that if we're riding 450 watts, someone's going to have to sustain 500 watts to stay away on a 20-minute climb, which is not possible anymore unless you've got a couple of extra liters of blood."

Funniest thing, Team SKy/Wiggo knows what is humanly possible yet scientists do not know? So Team Sky are at the end of human evolution? All of them of course. Riding at 6.4w/k is not normal in my book Wiggo.
 
May 19, 2011
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Taken from the Nibali SRM-thread:


Do u recall what Wiggins said after the Dauphinee last year?

"Someone would attack and Mick (Sky rider Michael Rogers) would say, 'Just leave them. He can't sustain that,'" Wiggins said. "It's not possible to sustain that if we're riding 450 watts, someone's going to have to sustain 500 watts to stay away on a 20-minute climb, which is not possible anymore unless you've got a couple of extra liters of blood."

Funniest thing, Team SKy/Wiggo knows what is humanly possible yet scientists do not know? So Team Sky are at the end of human evolution? All of them of course. Riding at 6.4w/k is not normal in my book Wiggo.

What woul be the best way of convincing the opposition you can't be beaten? Don' take everything at face value and don't believe everything Brad says. You normally have no problem with the latter.
 
Jul 7, 2012
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Gavatron said:
So why are we going through it all again so soon? How come Sky seem to have been given the nod to do what they like?

Probably because the success of Sky, as 'British' team, helps in its own way to undermine the power of the 'mafia European nations', as McQuaid has called them. That is, those countries / federations that form the traditional European heartlands of cycling. This is exactly the same reason why the UCI was so keen to protect Armstrong, as he helped to open up new markets, 'globalise' the sport and 'piss off the French'. In fact McQuaid's anti-French xenophobia in particular is hardly a secret, with the following being fairly typical of McQuaid's attitudes:

"The French?" McQuaid muses, carefully choosing his words. "They're an unusual race let's say. When it comes to cycling, they think they own the sport. They have this thing that France is cycling, cycling is French."

Independent.ie, 28 February 2010 'Cycling: Still covering the big breaks'

Unfortunately, it often seems that McQuaid believes that the only way to globalise cycling is to crush the 'old guard', a task that is made rather difficult when all the sports most important races are held in France, Italy, Belgium and so forth. Another quote from the above article:

Since his inception as president, the globalisation of the sport has been his most ardent mission statement. All the great races and most of the great riders had come from the same small knot of countries on the Mediterranean or in middle Europe: France, Spain, Italy, Belgium. McQuaid wanted change and, in threatening this hegemony, he knew he was treading on some powerful toes.

No surprise that the French have been his greatest adversaries. At the moment, McQuaid is engaged in a row with the French doping agency, AFLD, over the right to test at the Tour and other major French races. McQuaid is adamant he will win this one too. Under WADA rules, the international federation - in this case the UCI - is authorised to handle doping at internationally sanctioned events. The AFLD can make noise, but it will fall on deaf ears.

Also worth a read are the Saint Louis Post-Dispatch articles by Dave Luecking, from 2008. 'A chat with Pat McQuaid, Part I: Cycling in America' and 'A chat with Pat McQuaid, Part II: The state of cycling'. These articles lay out in some detail McQuaid's plans for the 'globalisation' of cycling and makes it clear that McQuaid is determined to to anything that will help to undermine the power of 'the old guard'. For example:

As for the UCI, McQuaid said the UCI and ASO are at war for the control of cycling, and have been since the UCI implimented the Pro Tour in 2005.

“It’s very much a fight between the UCI, which is trying to globalize the sport, and the Europeans which are trying to keep it within Europe, and those Europeans are led by ASO,” he said

From what I can see the success of Sky fits in with McQuaid's plans just as much as did the success of USP and Discovery.

P.s. another McQuaid classic from the Saint Louis Post-Dispatch article. Astana? :eek:

As for the fight against doping, McQuaid praised the efforts of Slipstream, High Road, Astana and CSC in instituting anti-doping programs.

“They’re all showing a very strong commitment to the fight against doping and a very, very strong commitment to having clean riders and a clean team,” McQuaid said. “All the teams at the top level are riding on the same wave right now. But I think those four have led the way.”
 
May 26, 2009
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King Of The Wolds said:
What woul be the best way of convincing the opposition you can't be beaten? Don' take everything at face value and don't believe everything Brad says. You normally have no problem with the latter.

Indeed... except this was a description of what actually happened.

Oh those damned facts, why can't we just happily ignore them... :rolleyes:
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Don't be late Pedro said:
That is a very worrying thing to me. I pegged Henao as a future top 5 GT rider. To see Uran and Henao dropping some of the best climbers and then dropping of is understandable but all the other Sky riders seem to have left them behind in their wake with their new found climbing ability.

I want to give Sky a chance but things are getting a bit silly now...

It's not about a new found climbing ability, it's about working as a team up a hill. Sky played possum for that entire stage, BMC and Astana did the lion share of chasing the break on the flat leading up to the climb, then Sky just hit climb hard.

You have to put it into context: Kennaugh, Coltaldo, Haneo and Uran had no intent on getting to the top of that ride with the best climbers, so they didn't outclimb Rodriguez or Evans for example, they rode as hard as they could then dropped off went backwards. Uran was the only one of the quartet that finished at the sharp end of the climb anywhere near the main contenders.

And Cotaldo is not someone with 'new-found' climbing ability, he's won the baby Giro, and most impressively won Stage 16 of the Vuelta atop the Cuitu Negri. Remember that climb? Oof.

I think there's an exaggeration and re-writing of facts: Uran, Haneo and Cotaldo all have impressive climbing pedigree. They didn't beat Rodriguez or Evans, they rode tempo and burnt them off, before they went off the back to. They weren't pacing themselves to the top of the climb, they were pacing Froome, who waited and waited before attacking in the final k and winning by six seconds. Just six seconds. It wasn't that remarkable, just very well executed and timed, plus the speed and power are within plausible limits.

For all the frothing at the mouth in here there's a good chance Contador will win the race anyways.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Franklin said:
I'm laughing as actually doing treshold at altitude is researched quite a bit. There is a reason you live high, train low.

It's just one of those times where a Sky rider is saying something about training which is either wrong or discutable.

Exactly. If you wanted to cutting edge altitude training then you would not bother putting everyone on an island in the same hotel, which is not even very high. You would use altitude chambers that could be adjusted to simulate an altitude for each rider. Everyone handles altitude differently.

Riding uphill on a volcano is the opposite of altitude training. They should be living high then training at sea level.

This working harder than everyone else is total crap. Performance from training follows an asymptotic curve. The vast majority of gains come early. There are no huge gains to be made when you well advanced along the curve.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2013/03/explaining-the-science-of-altitude-training/ Good little article here for anyone who would like to get a summary of the different types of altitude training and their pros/cons. Living high then training at sea level is one option but not the only one for sure. As BroDeal mentions, training chambers/altitude tents could be used. I presume Sky may want more real world efforts out on the road so pony up the £ to get guys out to Tenerife. Or they're doping.
 
Jul 3, 2009
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Franklin said:
I'm laughing as actually doing treshold at altitude is researched quite a bit. There is a reason you live high, train low.

It's just one of those times where a Sky rider is saying something about training which is either wrong or discutable.

Pretty sure I saw someone at Sky recently say it's not so much the training at altitude which is the big winner (which is especially the case for P-N which peaked at 1600m), but the sheer amount of climbing intervals they are doing. May have been that Kerrison video but I could be thinking of something else altogether.
 
Feb 19, 2013
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JimmyFingers said:
I think there's an exaggeration and re-writing of facts: Uran, Haneo and Cotaldo all have impressive climbing pedigree. They didn't beat Rodriguez or Evans, they rode tempo and burnt them off, before they went off the back too.

I agree with this.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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King Of The Wolds said:
What woul be the best way of convincing the opposition you can't be beaten? Don' take everything at face value and don't believe everything Brad says. You normally have no problem with the latter.
So, in fact, we should take these words - same article - also with a buckload of salt:

Sir Brad said:
Wiggins, who has said he never could dope because he would lose everything if he was caught, said a lack of stunning feats in the mountains was a sign that cycling has changed for the better.

"I think the Tour is a lot more human now with everything the UCI is doing," Wiggins said, referring to the body that runs international cycling.
?
 
Jul 13, 2012
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BroDeal said:
This working harder than everyone else is total crap. Performance from training follows an asymptotic curve. The vast majority of gains come early. There are no huge gains to be made when you well advanced along the curve.


This is very true, massive improvement early on the curve then slowing down towards the end. So what you're basically arguing is that as you get to the end of the curve you need to look for?......oh you know what I'm gonna say next ;) Marginal gains?
 
Jul 21, 2012
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I just love how the North Koreans on this forum use the word fact.Anything that suits your distorted views is a fact anything that doesnt is a lie .Anyone who doesnt share the abject paranoia exhibited by most on this forum is instantly branded a troll or in the pay of certain cyclists .

What a sad bunch you are although I have to say I do enjoy laughing at your views .
 
Mar 18, 2009
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xcleigh said:
This is very true, massive improvement early on the curve then slowing down towards the end. So what you're basically arguing is that as you get to the end of the curve you need to look for?......oh you know what I'm gonna say next ;) Marginal gains?

Marginal gains don't turn Froomes into race horses.
 
Aug 13, 2010
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JimmyFingers said:
It's not about a new found climbing ability, it's about working as a team up a hill. Sky played possum for that entire stage, BMC and Astana did the lion share of chasing the break on the flat leading up to the climb, then Sky just hit climb hard.

You have to put it into context: Kennaugh, Coltaldo, Haneo and Uran had no intent on getting to the top of that ride with the best climbers, so they didn't outclimb Rodriguez or Evans for example, they rode as hard as they could then dropped off went backwards. Uran was the only one of the quartet that finished at the sharp end of the climb anywhere near the main contenders.

And Cotaldo is not someone with 'new-found' climbing ability, he's won the baby Giro, and most impressively won Stage 16 of the Vuelta atop the Cuitu Negri. Remember that climb? Oof.

I think there's an exaggeration and re-writing of facts: Uran, Haneo and Cotaldo all have impressive climbing pedigree. They didn't beat Rodriguez or Evans, they rode tempo and burnt them off, before they went off the back to. They weren't pacing themselves to the top of the climb, they were pacing Froome, who waited and waited before attacking in the final k and winning by six seconds. Just six seconds. It wasn't that remarkable, just very well executed and timed, plus the speed and power are within plausible limits.

For all the frothing at the mouth in here there's a good chance Contador will win the race anyways.
My point was I can believe that Uran and Henao are good enough to drop top climbers when riding in a domestique capacity. But to do it at TA and PN at the same time AND having both leaders drop the rest of the pack?

I guess my question is how come no other team can get their domestiques to ride like Skys? It's not just money.

The thing that confuses me even more is that the doping going on is clearly not as extreme as the nineties so how is it that no other team can come close to Sky at the moment? Surely if Sky are doping another team just dopes more? People have mentioned that they are in bed with the UCI which is possible.

If all these undetectable EPO substitutes are around why don't we see more rises in performance across the peloton?
 
Jun 14, 2010
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pascoa341 said:
Particularly interesting was his argument that 'riders from other teams cannot believe how hard we train'...

The cynic in me is then reminded of how Armstrong to a large extent won his tours by being able (using PED in training) to train harder than anyone else... Or maybe cyclists at other teams are just lazy and just not willing to work hard enough to achieve 'marginal gains'.

I'm not really one to pick out any theories on exactly what methods sky are using.

but this one I do think is worth considering.

as victor conte said before sky started to dominate, and not even talking about cycling, he always gets suspicious when athletes say they win because they just train harder than everyone else, because historically the big benefit of peds comes in training, and most of the top drugs are recovery drugs which allow you to train another few hours on what a clean athlete can train.

Imo this of course also allows the mind to convince itself that one is racing clean since one isnt doping at the actual event.

As such, especially since much of anti doping is focused on in event doping, as sports get cleaner the doping rather than be immediately eliminated as the uberoptimists believe,is likely to retreat to slightly less potent and less policed earlier levels and techniques.
 
May 12, 2010
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bianchigirl said:
‘I’ve nothing to hide,’ Brailsford said. ‘There is nothing I won’t talk about. We needed some experience. That’s why we decided to go and get him. Has he been a good doctor? Brilliant. The guy really understands it’s not about doping, it’s about genuine medical practice.'

What a bald-faced lie. In the 2007 Giro Leinders gave Rasmussen two blood bags at the same time to see how his blood values would react.

He wasn't an upright pragmatist that was forced by the times to act against his conscience. He experimented on his own cyclists to better learn how to beat the dopingtests.
 
Jul 3, 2009
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Lanark said:
What a bald-faced lie. In the 2007 Giro Leinders gave Rasmussen two blood bags at the same time to see how his blood values would react.

Really? Has this been covered in the Rasmussen thread?
 
Jul 27, 2010
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Sky's the limit: how to detect team-wide doping

There seems to be a near consensus in the Clinic that Sky is achieving its remarkable results—dominating two stage races at the same time—by doping. If this is true, how are they getting away with it, and why aren’t riders on other teams, some of whom are likely also doping, unable to do so as effectively?

There are two ways a team like Sky might gain an advantage by doping. Frist, a better doping program for individual riders, and second, a team-wide doping program, which includes the domestiques. Based on the way Sky has been riding, a lot of suspicion has been focused on this second factor. But if that’s the case, it might actually be easier to detect than individual doping.

The passport basically tracks the ratio of hematocrit and hemoglobin to reticulocytes. This ratio has to be different from a baseline value to a very highly significant degree. Thus a rider may still blood-dope, but only up to a limit without getting caught. Any rider doping today is aware of this, and has a pretty good idea of to what degree he can manipulate his blood and go undetected.

If Sky or any other team has a team-wide blood doping program, extending to all of their riders, one would expect that all of their riders could be fairly near this limit. In this situation, while the value for any individual rider might not be significant, the value for the team as a whole most certainly would be. For example, suppose everyone on the team, as a result of blood doping, has a passport reading that is significantly different from the baseline at a level of p < 0. 1. A value like this would indicate doping 90% of the time, but this is not nearly significant enough to trigger further action against any individual.

But the odds of every rider on the team having a value like this is 0. 000000001, a slam dunk case for doping. Even if only some of the riders have values like this, it could be significant. The odds of four of nine undoped riders having blood values like this would be I believe roughly one in a hundred, while the odds of five riders like this would be one in a thousand. The odds of course would be even higher if these individual riders were even closer to the limit, say, having an individual probability of p < 0.05.

One problem with this approach, of course, is that ordinarily not all members of a team are given passport tests at the same time. But perhaps anti-doping officials should consider doing this in some cases where team-wide doping is a reasonable suspicion. Then there is the question of what kind of sanctions would follow a highly significant finding, at the team level. By the current rules, no individual rider could be sanctioned, but I think a highly significant result by team analysis would justify invalidating the team's results, along with further targeting. In any case, it would be a very interesting case where one could not prove that any particular rider on the team was doping, but could prove to a very high degree of certainty that someone was.

EDIT: I merged this post from yet another Sky thread
 
Jul 4, 2010
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The Hitch said:
I'm not really one to pick out any theories on exactly what methods sky are using.

but this one I do think is worth considering.

as victor conte said before sky started to dominate, and not even talking about cycling, he always gets suspicious when athletes say they win because they just train harder than everyone else, because historically the big benefit of peds comes in training, and most of the top drugs are recovery drugs which allow you to train another few hours on what a clean athlete can train.

Imo this of course also allows the mind to convince itself that one is racing clean since one isnt doping at the actual event.

As such, especially since much of anti doping is focused on in event doping, as sports get cleaner the doping rather than be immediately eliminated as the uberoptimists believe,is likely to retreat to slightly less potent and less policed earlier levels and techniques.

This is why we need more out of competition dope checks.
 
May 19, 2011
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
So, in fact, we should take these words - same article - also with a buckload of salt:


?
Yep. I always do with Brad. Seems to say the first thing to come into his head. I'd advise you to do the same, rather than cherry picking for your own convenience.