Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Cyivel]

Saw a video the other day or Nicolous Roche in 2010. They're interviewing him post stage. What does he do? Warms down.

And that's supposed to be new?

I was a decent 3000m runner at school and I remember warming down after races on occasions, I meant it was just a leisurely jog but still it was 15 years ago.

 

[thehog]

I was a decent 3000m runner at school and I remember warming down after races on occasions, I meant it was just a leisurely jog but still it was 15 years ago.

Little did you know you were improving your 3000m time by 15% each time you warmed down.

Marginal gains 1998 style!

The Pro's only leant to warm down in the last 18 months.

It's a new concept. Other teams were laughing at Sky. Now they're all doing it.

 

[JimmyFingers]

and cadence.

slower or faster?

 

[Caroline_Smaltz]

Sky is a team where there is systematic team wide doping. As big a fraud as any team in the history of the sport and a lot worse then most if not all. Sky need to be kicked out of the sport, it staff and riders banned for life.

 

[blackcat]

slower or faster?

depends.

depends on how it suits to justify NOT NORMAL performance.

Wiggo has used both, faster and slower.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Little did you know you were improving your 3000m time by 15% each time you warmed down.

Marginal gains 1998 style!

The Pro's only leant to warm down in the last 18 months.

It's a new concept. Other teams were laughing at Sky. Now they're all doing it.

In the blossom EPO days riders even got up in the middle of the night to be on the hometrainer, how about that for scientific cycling.

 

[coinneach]

Has anyone bothered to read the interview with Froome on the CN website?

He describes a lot of things 100% opposite from most posters here:

Time lost on stage 6? Due to uphill, not downhill

Cadence? Was overgeared on stage 6

Attention to detail? Didn't have enough clothes on and was overgeared.

He doesn't mention the decisions taken (by his DS?) to use up team members chasing down rider who was not main opponent.

I find it interesting, he paints sky as fallible....most posters love to blab out the old Sky pr guff.....in reality, they are just a good, occasionally dominant, cycling team. But they are nowhere near the unbelievable standard posters give them.

Of course, it might be he's not telling the full truth, but I have been impressed by his honesty and openness thus far (doesn't mean he's doping or he's not doping, I know).

He's had 3 shots at team leader now, and won once. And not from lack of trying.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Quite honestly I think if Sagan trained in a certain way and changed his shape he might turn himself into a GT contender, although I also believe he would lose his ability as puncheur and sprinteur. And while Sagan is being re-invented as a classics rider, he hasn't actually won one yet, although the clever money says he will redress this next weekend.

The simple answer is No. No he cannot ever win a GT.
Maybe a top 10 in Vuelta, but thats it.

You can starve yourself and ride up and down Tiede all day, but if you haven't the recovery (and he hasnt) then you wont be good enough over 3 weeks.

As I said earlier I view him as a phenom, an athlete capable of pretty much anything, a freak even.

I'm really not the one to point at a performance and say that's suss, I was looking to point out significantly the performance in the stage 4 win was taken, while nothing has really been said about stage 6. It's interesting contrasting the reactions here compared to the road racing forum. The reactions after stage 4 in both were very negative towards Sky, and you had a legion of posters coming in here wanting to vent their disgust. After stage six the positivity in the road racing forum was overwhelming for Sagan's win and Nibali's overall and the concomitant reaction in the clinic was to continue to criticise Sky.

So even when they had failed and other riders put in exceptional performances, Sky remained the main object of ire.

And while you may qualify the differing reactions by citing parcours and conditions and the relative abilities of the riders, it does demonstrate the populist nature of analysis. Like buoys from the sea bed, multiple Sky and rider threads bobbed to the surface of the clinic, none so far on the winner of stage 6, stage 7 or the overall have.

It says much for an acceptance and even forgiveness of guilt of some, and volumes for the contempt others are held in.

I would qualify that by saying I am accusing neither Sagan of Nibali, I'll afford the same benefit of the doubt I afford Sky. Because the truth is I don't know either way.

So I'll just say innocent until proven guilty, because I am painfully aware I don't have all the facts, just a fraction of them, and must rely on officials lacking accountability and trust to make that call. And since I can't rely on that I have to wait and hope, and afford the riders the benefit of the doubt until I can be certain. There are others more certain than me, but I can't fault that, so its just an opinion.

You appear more peeved that certain riders are not called out.
Nibbs has been very good from the start of his career.

As for Sagan his first race at the age of 19 was TDU, the Willunga (sp) stage is the only obstacle and in 2010 4 riders get a gap over the peloton. Evans, Valverde, LL Sanchez and .....

(I am not saying either is not doping - but again, if you are looking for transformations, they ain't it)

 

[The Hitch]

Th


You appear more peeved that certain riders are not called out.
Nibbs has been very good from the start of his career.
)

Nibali has been called out plenty for years. There were rumours he was training with Ferrari (the kind if leveled at a sky rider would constitute proof of bias). He was bassos best friend and said basso calls him every day. He was allegedly called up very late for the 2010 giro which he podiumed as the original leader delfino was caught by the passport (Nibali was down on a completely different schedule).

he rode for liquigas. He rides for frickin vinokourov.

This all going back to the genesis of the clinic 4 years ago.

 

[martinvickers]

The simple answer is No. No he cannot ever win a GT.
Maybe a top 10 in Vuelta, but thats it.

You can starve yourself and ride up and down Tiede all day, but if you haven't the recovery (and he hasnt) then you wont be good enough over 3 weeks.

Can I suggest that while i broadly believe you are correct in this, I think things could have been rather different in recent era, and for more than one reason? Hell, even Sean Kelly won a Vuelta, back in the day (ought to have one two, too)

He's clearly a sensational rider, and it'll be interesting following him. as an Irishman, I can't but help smell something of Kelly about him. But not Merckx. Yet.

You appear more peeved that certain riders are not called out.
Nibbs has been very good from the start of his career.

What I find more hopeful anout Nibali is how much of his ability is down to 'non-physicals' - tactical bravery, extraordinary courage on descents. Means nothing I suppose, but for some reason he perks my antenna less than many.

As for Sagan his first race at the age of 19 was TDU, the Willunga (sp) stage is the only obstacle and in 2010 4 riders get a gap over the peloton. Evans, Valverde, LL Sanchez and .....

(I am not saying either is not doping - but again, if you are looking for transformations, they ain't it)

Sadly, I'm not even sure transformations, or lack of them, helps us much any more on catching dopers - the Woman rider doing it from 16 that Nicole Cooke spoke of kinda showed that.

Still, it would be nice to live in the world where Sagan and Nibali got some sort of benefit of the doubt. If only because of the that rather wonderful Stage 6.

ah, well.

 

[Netserk]

Can I suggest that while i broadly believe you are correct in this, I think things could have been rather different in recent era, and for more than one reason? Hell, even Sean Kelly won a Vuelta, back in the day (ought to have one two, too)

He's clearly a sensational rider, and it'll be interesting following him. as an Irishman, I can't but help smell something of Kelly about him. But not Merckx. Yet.



What I find more hopeful anout Nibali is how much of his ability is down to 'non-physicals' - tactical bravery, extraordinary courage on descents. Means nothing I suppose, but for some reason he perks my antenna less than many.



Sadly, I'm not even sure transformations, or lack of them, helps us much any more on catching dopers - the Woman rider doing it from 16 that Nicole Cooke spoke of kinda showed that.

Still, it would be nice to live in the world where Sagan and Nibali got some sort of benefit of the doubt. If only because of the that rather wonderful Stage 6.

ah, well.

Completely different route. Mountain-wise.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Nibali has been called out plenty for years. There were rumours he was training with Ferrari (the kind if leveled at a sky rider would constitute proof of bias). He was bassos best friend and said basso calls him every day. He was allegedly called up very late for the 2010 giro which he podiumed as the original leader delfino was caught by the passport (Nibali was down on a completely different schedule).

he rode for liquigas. He rides for frickin vinokourov.

This all going back to the genesis of the clinic 4 years ago.

Ack, good man Hitch. I had forgotten that Ferrari connection.
Well there you go. But again he has slipped off the Clinic radar because few would defend that.

@martinvic. I was thinking of Kelly as I wrote about Sagan.
I view now a very different era to the 80s though - not (just) doping, but that teams now specialize for events. No need to dilute Sagans talent just to crack the top 5 of a GT. And the kid enjoys winning too much.

 

[MatParker117]

Nibali has been called out plenty for years. There were rumours he was training with Ferrari (the kind if leveled at a sky rider would constitute proof of bias). He was bassos best friend and said basso calls him every day. He was allegedly called up very late for the 2010 giro which he podiumed as the original leader delfino was caught by the passport (Nibali was down on a completely different schedule).

he rode for liquigas. He rides for frickin vinokourov.

This all going back to the genesis of the clinic 4 years ago.

Sky passed on an Italian in 2010 because of irregular passport info, wonder if it was Delfino.

 

[The Hitch]

Still, it would be nice to live in the world where Sagan and Nibali got some sort of benefit of the doubt. If only because of the that rather wonderful Stage 6.

ah, well.

Didnt bailsford say that clean cycling means we wont see epic stages.

 

[The Hitch]

Sky passed on an Italian in 2010 because of irregular passport info, wonder if it was Delfino.

Doubt it. Pellizoti was hot **** in 2010 having podiumed the Giro and Komd the Tour. + he wanted to win the Giro (and was the favorite to do so), whereas Sky would have much preferred to throw that kind of money at the Tour.

 

[Bala Verde]

I think if you're approached for a doping control you have to do it immediately. Surely you can't say 'hang on a minute, I'm warming down'?

Armstrong was allowed to take a 20m shower prior to an unannounced (read: inconvenient) test. The entire Astana team in the 2009 TdF was allowed to chill, grab coffees and donuts, prior to an unannounced test. source

It mainly depends on the thickness of the brown envelopes and the amount of anti-doping machines you contribute on a voluntary basis.

 

[martinvickers]

Completely different route. Mountain-wise.

Oh, I do realise that; I'm just saying a 1980 Kelly would have no business winning ANY GTs regardless. He also went 4th in a Tour if memory serves.

We're going through a 'mountain/wall' fad at the moment - we've gone through other fads in the past. It's not beyond possibility that one of the tours (possibly giro) might become more rolling classic friendly.

 

[lemoogle]

I would qualify that by saying I am accusing neither Sagan of Nibali, I'll afford the same benefit of the doubt I afford Sky. Because the truth is I don't know either way.

I won't say too much about Sagan, as it's pretty clear that he's probably got one of the most consistent growing curves matched with initial potential in cycling. But if you were watching the same stage that he won, you would have seen that he was zigzaging his way up many of the toughest hills before the finish working incredibly hard to even stay in it. I don't think his win was remotely as dominant or suspicious as sky's wins in the previous stage and Paris Nice.

Edit: might as well add a nice picture of sagan zigzagging on stage 5, because pictures are nice.

 

[MatParker117]

Doubt it. Pellizoti was hot **** in 2010 having podiumed the Giro and Komd the Tour. + he wanted to win the Giro (and was the favorite to do so), whereas Sky would have much preferred to throw that kind of money at the Tour.

It makes a bit of sense as Nibali was going to lead Sky at one point I wonder if Pellizoti was going to be his main dom at some point priot to Nibali;s contractual and Pellzoti's issues.

 

[martinvickers]

Didnt bailsford say that clean cycling means we wont see epic stages.

I think he specifically said we wouldn't see all the 'jumping around' (a la contador 200x. i suspect he meant) - or more that "if we want to keep seeing that jumping around, you'll see more doping"). and the nibali/Sagan break wasn't really that, more one huge effort that stuck.

Personally I actually like the 'dialled down' type of jumping we've seen this last few weeks, where it's trully hard to stick and only seconds are eeked out - there's quite possibly still doping involved, but it's a bit easier on the conscience that Armstrong catching Pantani as if he was on a yamaha.

 

[Parrulo]

Ack, good man Hitch. I had forgotten that Ferrari connection.
Well there you go. But again he has slipped off the Clinic radar because few would defend that.

@martinvic. I was thinking of Kelly as I wrote about Sagan.
I view now a very different era to the 80s though - not (just) doping, but that teams now specialize for events. No need to dilute Sagans talent just to crack the top 5 of a GT. And the kid enjoys winning too much.

exactly, back then the reaction was something among the lines of: " not surprised. . . . still this guys must be big idiots to allow themselves to be seen with some1 that is banned from all sports"

 

[The Hitch]

It makes a bit of sense as Nibali was going to lead Sky at one point I wonder if Pellizoti was going to be his main dom at some point priot to Nibali;s contractual and Pellzoti's issues.

Im confused. You saying they would buy Nibali and Pelizzoti to go for the Giro then have the stronger rider -Pelizoti domestique for Nibali?

If Sky had that kind of money they could have bought the Schlecks.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I won't say too much about Sagan, as it's pretty clear that he's probably got one of the most consistent growing curves matched with initial potential in cycling. But if you were watching the same stage that he won, you would have seen that he was zigzaging his way up many of the toughest hills before the finish working incredibly hard to even stay in it. I don't think his win was remotely as dominant or suspicious as sky's wins in the previous stage and Paris Nice.

Totally. The guy's an obvious phenom cut from the old style of cloth.

I wouldn't bet my life on cleanliness, but that's pretty much beside the point.

I love how he races, I love how he finished Strade Bianche (pointing down the road to Moser as he himself crossed the line in second), and he's got the nuts to get off the front even when he knows he could win a bunch finish.

Now, if he starts insulting fans, becomes a terrible bore, acts like he's entitled, or his team starts making incredible claims that could never pass the smell test; well, then I'll vilify him. As it is now, I love watching that mutha race!

 

[MatParker117]

Im confused. You saying they would buy Nibali and Pelizzoti to go for the Giro then have the stronger rider -Pelizoti domestique for Nibali?

If Sky had that kind of money they could have bought the Schlecks.

No Nibali was set to lead Sky prior to them signing Wiggins but couldn't get out of his Liquigas deal. I was wondering if maybe Sky were looking at Pelizoti as Nibbles Froome, although it would be doubtful at best.

Maybe the dodgy numbers were Nibali's I don't know. I have a tendency to way overthink things.

 

[TheGame]

Sky passed on an Italian in 2010 because of irregular passport info, wonder if it was Delfino.

Sky Italia wanted the team to sign Pellizotti after he was cleared of Bio Passport irregularities in late 2010. Yates was enthusiastic, the rest of the team management were not. As it was, he wasn't signed and shortly afterwards was banned anyway.