Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[martinvickers]

It's not doping if you don't win ALL the races? Is that what you're trying to say?

I think his point is probably that people are complaining about complete domination. But when someone points out that, actually, its not exactly complete, the answer is "so what, proves nothing!!.

In which case, why raise it in the first place?

Basically there have been 2 stage races where the big guys turned up.

Sky won one and lost one.

If your nearest cpmetitor is tejay or telansky, then with the best will in the world, that ain't the elite, is it?

Froome is 1-1 with Nibali. Both are 2 up on berti, who looks a shadow of his Vuelta 2012 self. Evans and schleck are not at the races, so no good for comparison.

Wiggo just got creamed by purito, scarponi and quentana. My man Dan beat them all.

And this place is collectively losing its marbles because Froome, a clear gt gc contender can ride off tejay? Or porte can repeat almost exactly his late p'n burst to get away? Seriously?

 

[wannab]

No, they are not, but there are always ways to improve and professionalise training, and some people will know more about this than others.

I bet, if Manchester United picks at random 20 boys off the street and trains them to become football players and my club in Vienna does the same, 10 years later the former kick the ****ing **** out of the latter in any match anywhere.

I guess there'll be room for further professionalizing anything really, so also training. But to what extend, when it basically comes down to the talent your born with and the willingness to train that talent to it's maximum potential.

Training with power is nothing new, Lemond was one of the first to use SRM in the late 80's I think, the same stuff some media call the "new scientific approach".

Yet power of Merckx wasn't all so different in a way, in an era with no "scientific approach" (PED's incl. they were nothing in comparison to which we know today). I guess human physiology doesn't change that fast ..

Your analogy of the football boy is incorrect. Basically your saying sky is like man. united and for example saxo is a local cycling club? Can u see the disgrace this "sky approach" has on other pro teams. Beside you can have a all the training u want, if u don't have the talent you'll get nowhere. Messi grew up in Rosario but is one of those once in a lifetime.

In the end I only seen marginals improvements (cooling down? high cadence? tenerife altitude?) which add up to extraordinary performances of an entire team.

 

[MartinGT]

The bold part really annoy's the heck out of me whenever I hear it on telly or interview

The entire pro peloton are actually total mongoloids when it comes to training and only sky knows how it's done ... well yeah, they surely know how "it's" done!

Likewise, or if I hear it from blind friends who cannot see the similarities with whats happened over the past 20 years.

"Yeh but they are so scientific and revoloutionary, they cool down, drink beet juice and train so differently whilst on camps"

Oh Christ SHUT UP! How do you or they know how much other teams do this?

 

[Cimber]

I think his point is probably that people are complaining about complete domination. But when someone points out that, actually, its not exactly complete, the answer is "so what, proves nothing!!.

The thing is that most often, even the stage races they dont win they dominate as a team

 

[thehog]

porte has yet to give himself a nickname

bow down before ricky riccio

/respect

Porte has a name.

Skyborg46463628a

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

I see whenever I post on the Guardian site about anything Geert related is disappears. I post as Neville Bartoss and every time my posts disappear. Completely gave up on them as well. I mean I do like to read the newspaper but any negative or questioning or probing related to team Sky and its bye bye. It's sad really, as they did work with Geert and performances have improved for certain riders a little bit more than marginally. There is a deeper agenda going on at the Guardian right now and it's a shame...

Doubt there is an agenda. The Guardian would take great pleasure in sticking another knife into Murdoch's empire. I think you'll find they are extremely nervous about the draconian libel laws. Remember the Sunday Times and Armstrong?

 

[Cimber]

Porte has a name.

Skyborg46463628a

LMFAO - you almost made me spill my coffee

 

[Ferminal]

And this place is collectively losing its marbles because Froome, a clear gt gc contender can ride off tejay?

It's probably the mere fact that Froome is a clear GT GC contender and Van Garderen isn't...

24 months ago Van Garderen had established a far better career (inc. u23) than Froome who is three years older and at that stage had three seasons as a pro against one for Van Garderen.

 

[xcleigh]

Oh Christ SHUT UP! How do you or they know how much other teams do this?

The very same can be said about doping. No certainty unfortunately about what any team is up to or not.

 

[martinvickers]

The thing is that most often, even the stage races they dont win they dominate as a team

's funny. Listening to the interviews post Crit yesterday; Tejay was being a good guy, VERY diplomatic about the fact that Evans is, basically, done, ready for the glue factory, etc.... And during the interview he mentioned that he was happy that Cadel was still no. 1 and he would "have a free role".

BMC's no 2, the chief lietentant to Cadel, thinks he might have a 'free' role.

Reckon anybody in Sky EVER has a 'free' role? Do we remember Froome in TdF12? and i think BMC are probably one of the more analytical teams, though not up there with Garmin, say.

Now, none of what i just wrote really says anything about doping. But it does say something about 'team ethic' - not in ethics as in morals i hasten to add, just team internal discipline.

Even Valverde's was talking about himself and Q as a one-two to take on Wiggins and froome - which is good thinking, and great as far as it goes because i think V+Q >> W+F (mainly because Wiggo is way overrated, and one of the weakest TDF winners in argubaly it's weakest field in decades)

Except where is V+Q's Porte? Where is their Kiryenka, Pate, Knees, Catado, Siutsiu, Uran, Henao?

If you aren't beating up teams with that line-up, somethings wrong.

It's not brain surgery. Very recently Highroad were practically unstoppable as a train for Cavendish. because the entire team was dedicated to it, with hardly any exception. Like a machine. Like the Borg.

And other teams will figure all this out. And if Sky are doping, they'll figure that out to.

 

[martinvickers]

It's probably the mere fact that Froome is a clear GT GC contender and Van Garderen isn't...

24 months ago Van Garderen had established a far better career (inc. u23) than Froome who is three years older and at that stage had three seasons as a pro against one for Van Garderen.

And tht's a discussion worth having, i agree. But Froome has been, arguably, the dominant GC rider of the last 18mths - he ought to have won 2 of the last 4 GT's.

Yet he successfully attacks a field, the best of which are his own domestique and Tejay, and people scream that this, this is the end!

It's just the sherlock falacy again, really, isn't it.

Because, when Berti pulled out - who exactly did we expect to beat Froome?

anyway, i cannot be made unhappy today; my man Dan laideth the smacketh down; for us, Martyn Irvine and Dan's win equals a bit of a bumper year by recent standards...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Porte has a name.

Skyborg46463628a

In 2012, Richie Porte was #7 of 9 on the team Sky start list.

Jeri Ryan never rode a bike so well.

I'll leave the door open for le chat noir.

 

[will10]

In 2012, Richie Porte was #7 of 9 on the team Sky start list.

Jeri Ryan never rode a bike so well.

I'll leave the door open for le chat noir.

Oh is that startlist in order of climbing ability? I guess it must be with Hagen and Cavendish ahead of Porte and Froome. Still, it's definitely not just in alphabetical order, except for the clear team leader Wiggins.

Can we please stick to legitimate reasons to question Sky rather than reverting, to use hog's terminology, to full ***.

 

[Parrot23]

anyway, i cannot be made unhappy today; my man Dan laideth the smacketh down

Great stuff from Dan. Congrats!

When he won, the silence was a deafening. You could hear a pin drop here. Catalyuna didn't even exist; neither did Dan.

Against the prevailing narrative. Pesky. Really stuck in people's craw.

 

[MartinGT]

Reckon anybody in Sky EVER has a 'free' role? Do we remember Froome in TdF12? and i think BMC are probably one of the more analytical teams, though not up there with Garmin, say.

Did you not see yesterdays stage?

Froome did more or less what he did in the Tour last season, but instead of blind man Yates calling him back, he just carried on. Then Porte woke up and dropped the rest.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Oh is that startlist in order of climbing ability? I guess it must be with Hagen and Cavendish ahead of Porte and Froome. Still, it's definitely not just in alphabetical order, except for the clear team leader Wiggins.

Can we please stick to legitimate reasons to question Sky rather than reverting, to use hog's terminology, to full ***.

The only person going full *** is the person not getting the joke.

Google: 7 of 9, Jeri Ryan, borg, star trek.

A joke never works when you have to explain it...



non-sci fi infidels.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Reckon anybody in Sky EVER has a 'free' role? Do we remember Froome in TdF12? and i think BMC are probably one of the more analytical teams, though not up there with Garmin, say.

I think the nearest a Sky rider with a free role (except 2011 when Wiggo crashed out of the race causing everyone to have one) would be EBH.

Except even then they pulled him out of a break that could have gone the distance to get the race back together for a Cav win.


If BMC really wants a podium at le Tour, Evans needs to buckle down and work for TJ. Pride has no place in modern cycling. I think TJ is a genuine contender for a podium spot, I would hate to see the team blow it for him.

 

[martinvickers]

Oh is that startlist in order of climbing ability? I guess it must be with Hagen and Cavendish ahead of Porte and Froome. Still, it's definitely not just in alphabetical order, except for the clear team leader Wiggins.

Can we please stick to legitimate reasons to question Sky rather than reverting, to use hog's terminology, to full ***.

I think DW was having a wee joke - you know - 7 of 9 - Borg, Star Trek??

 

[martinvickers]

Did you not see yesterdays stage?

Froome did more or less what he did in the Tour last season, but instead of blind man Yates calling him back, he just carried on. Then Porte woke up and dropped the rest.

Froome was team leader yesterday - he was ALWAYS going to do that. If he'd been say 20 secs down, he wouldn't; they would have hitched to Porte - but 2 secs? Meaningless; Froome was still Leader; Porte just gave them great options...

It seemed pretty obvious to me, long before it happened (3 streams open yesterday, woohaa!) - if Froome's feeling strong send him up the road - he went about 1.5 km earlier than i expected, but no-one was following him so why not - if TJ tries to follow Richie sucks his wheels all the way to 2km, and then does a P-N - if not, Froome wins and Porte can still attack as he likes for the 1-2(which is exactly what happened).

But hey, what do i know, right?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Its called team tactics.

Like when Thor beat EBH in the tour, its amazing what 2:1 odds do for your chances of victory at the pointy end of a stage.


Andy and Frank should have been doing this all along.

 

[The Hitch]

I agree, 2011 would have been enough for most people to make up their minds (one way or the other). Any subsequent information doesn't really provide a reason to change the original conclusion.

Well the 2011 and 2012 information is consistently dismissed as - oh it was a 1 off, oh the field was crap, oh they had good tail wind, oh that was froome in his ideal Sumner conditions, etc.

everytime froome does it again, it becomes harder to explain that way. Especially since 2011 was a maximum peak over essentially 1 week in the vuelta. Today he's doing it in warmup race after warm-up race. Last year he sucked in then, now he's owning them

also yesterday was different because it wasn't just froome but Porte as well. The 1-2.

Btw, how many other teams have done the 1-2 in stage races the last few years. Sky have done it 3 times.

 

[BYOP88]

The work doesn’t stop for Wiggins who will return to a training programme which has been ramped up once again compared to last season.

“Every year there’s a little bit more because you learn from the previous year. This year’s been harder because the stuff we did last year worked, so we’ve done more of that and maybe less of some of the stuff that didn’t work. It’s a continual process.

“The training we do now I never imagined we’d be doing three years ago. It just steps up each year, always trying to improve because we've never stopped and said ‘okay this works so we’ll do the same again’. It’s always to improve and be better.

“This year we’ve been working more on the explosive climbing and things like that because the racing is going that way more. The Giro climbs are more that way, and on Vallter a few days ago the first signs were that I still had good legs to attack. So it seems to be working.”


http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,17553_8596409,00.html

Could explain why Rogers is now sucking, he's using last years outdated trainning plans.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Except where is V+Q's Porte? Where is their Kiryenka, Pate, Knees, Catado, Siutsiu, Uran, Henao?

Just a quick look at the Movistar squad gives me the following:

* Amador
* Capecchi
* Castroviejo
* Cobo
* Rui Costa
* der Sylvester
* Visconti
* Intxausti

I will do it for you and call Castroviejo Movistar's 'Porte'. He just needs a swimming coach and train at mount Teide.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Movistar at Catalunya (stage 3) a week ago ?

 

[Cimber]

Could explain why Rogers is now sucking, he's using last years outdated trainning plans.

Oh yeah, last years´ "programme" was really lackluster