Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Benotti69]

Do you think Wiggins has been descending well in this race?
If your answer is "no" then getting back on and sticking there on the final descent is noteworthy.

It is noteworthy that an experienced pro from a wet country cant descend. It was not a gutsy performance which is what I was criticising from Walsh.

Wiggins had no probelm 2 years ago staying in the front group on the L'Aquila stage and the weather was worse than it has been this Giro. So again it aint gutsy from Wiggins.

What you said about being on the biggest team in the world is completely irrelevant and odd. It has nothing to do with ones descending ability.

They have the power to chase back on and again i dont consider that a gutsy performance. It is about Walsh calling it a gutsy performance, which i said i would expect to be used about neo pros on a wildcard team.

I think it is relevant.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

What did JV say?

Just check David Walsh twitter.


''Warned you about this!!!''


Omerta begins when the golden goose is shot.

 

[goggalor]

I am not being in the slightest bit apologetic. I am calling it as I see it.

You have called Walshs comments on Dowsett "very harsh" (to me they were entirely accurate) and say that DW saying BW did well to stick on the decent as "fawning" (again, pretty accurate).
And you also categorize that one rider is dodger than another, again that's your view - your perfectly entitled to it but don't expect anyone to have to agree with it.

An entirely accurate comment can be very harsh. In this case he devoted most of Dowsett's hard earned column space to some comments he made about Lance Armstrong. I thought that was very harsh of him, and again, I wonder if he would have done it if Dowsett was still with Sky? Or would he have done it to Wiggo if he hadn't punctured? Again, I doubt it, but of course, I can't prove it. What I know is Walsh's credibility has taken a hit with me and apparently with many others.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It is noteworthy that an experienced pro from a wet country cant descend. It was not a gutsy performance which is what I was criticising from Walsh.

Wiggins had no probelm 2 years ago staying in the front group on the L'Aquila stage and the weather was worse than it has been this Giro. So again it aint gutsy from Wiggins.



They have the power to chase back on and again i dont consider that a gutsy performance. It is about Walsh calling it a gutsy performance, which i said i would expect to be used about neo pros on a wildcard team.

I think it is relevant.

Long post which avoided a simple question - "do you think Wiggins has been descending well in this race"?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

No he didn't.

Shane Sutton has coached him for the past few years but as with all successful coaches at the Sky / BC set-up, Dave B tries to get rid once they get a certain amount of success. See Simon Jones / Matt Parker / Dan Hunt as examples.

AFAIK, Rod has never coached Brad. He looks after Cav and has looked after some of the 'classics' riders but that hasn't worked out so well.

Very interesting. Can you cite a source for your info?

Hey JV, a question if I may?

Where did Brad train for the 2009 Tour, and who trained him?

he trained in Girona and Manchester, mainly. He was coached by Rod Ellingworth (sp?)

 

[Dr. Maserati]

An entirely accurate comment can be very harsh. In this case he devoted most of Dowsett's hard earned column space to some comments he made about Lance Armstrong. I thought that was very harsh of him, and again, I wonder, would he have done it if Dowsett was still with Sky? Or would he have done it to Wiggo if he hadn't punctured? Again, I doubt it, but of course, I can't prove it. What I know is Walsh's credibility has taken a hit with me and apparently with many others.

Twice you said it was harsh, yet you don't explain why it was harsh. What was harsh about it?

It was accurate, and he put in that Dowsett had changed his opinion. And if it was all to do with Sky then he would have avoided mentioning it as Dowsett was with Sky at the time.

 

[Benotti69]

Long post which avoided a simple question - "do you think Wiggins has been descending well in this race"?

For an experienced pro no.

But then do you think gutsy is appropriate for a team that should be on the front of a GT in the 1st week protecting their leader who grew up in a wet and temperate climate and should be well used to descending in the wet?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

For an experienced pro no.

Exactly.
So he is descending bad in this race, I am sure you won't bring in stuff from long ago, oh wait..,..

But then do you think gutsy is appropriate for a team that should be on the front of a GT in the 1st week protecting their leader who grew up in a wet and temperate climate and should be well used to descending in the wet?

Fair point, I am sure his descending around the wet descents of Kilburn and inside a track should have stood to him.

 

[roundabout]

Praising the guy for not getting dropped when nobody is trying to drop him is still a bit soft regardless of how bad he has been descending recently.

 

[goggalor]

Twice you said it was harsh, yet you don't explain why it was harsh. What was harsh about it?

It was accurate, and he put in that Dowsett had changed his opinion. And if it was all to do with Sky then he would have avoided mentioning it as Dowsett was with Sky at the time.

It's harsh to use the occasion of a by all accounts clean young rider's biggest win to tie him to sport's most famous cheater, mention something about him leaving Team Sky, before moving on.

 

[The Hitch]

It is noteworthy that an experienced pro from a wet country cant descend. It was not a gutsy performance which is what I was criticising from Walsh.

Wiggins had no probelm 2 years ago staying in the front group on the L'Aquila stage and the weather was worse than it has been this Giro. So again it aint gutsy from Wiggins.



They have the power to chase back on and again i dont consider that a gutsy performance. It is about Walsh calling it a gutsy performance, which i said i would expect to be used about neo pros on a wildcard team.

I think it is relevant.

Does it matter?

Wiggins cant descend yes. Walsh is acting a bit like a bieber fan. Not really much else to it.

Whether wiggins was or wasnt able to descend at another time is needles bickering of little relevance that merely pushes hrothas on the dot summary of the situation onto a previous page.

 

[goggalor]

Long post which avoided a simple question - "do you think Wiggins has been descending well in this race"?

No, he's been descending like someone with a complete lack of guts. I'd say "gutsy" is the opposite of what his ride should be described as today. It was embarrassing.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It's harsh to use the occasion of a by all accounts clean young rider's biggest win to tie him to sport's most famous cheater, mention something about him leaving Team Sky, before moving on.

So it's harsh because you are assuming that Dowsett is "by all accounts a clean young rider" - surely bringing up his comments actually puts in context who Dowsett is and let the reader decide?

 

[Benotti69]

Exactly.
So he is descending bad in this race, I am sure you won't bring in stuff from long ago, oh wait..,..


Fair point, I am sure his descending around the wet descents of Kilburn and inside a track should have stood to him.

Wiggins has been racing over 12 years in pro teams. He forgot this year how to descend? Lets hear how and why he forgot how to descend in the wet and then we'll call his ride gutsy.

Until then it wasn't gutsy in my opinion.

Walsh's praise borders on the type of stuff he admitted to writing about Sean Kelly years ago, a fan with a typewriter was what he referred to himself as. well it appears the fan is back.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Wiggins has been racing over 12 years in pro teams. He forgot this year how to descend? Lets hear how and why he forgot how to descend in the wet and then we'll call his ride gutsy.

The whys do not matter, the fact he has been poor in this race does.

Until then it wasn't gutsy in my opinion.

Walsh's praise borders on the type of stuff he admitted to writing about Sean Kelly years ago, a fan with a typewriter was what he referred to himself as. well it appears the fan is back.

If wiggins didn't hang on today he would have been (rightly) ridiculed however it wouldn't be a shock giving his Giro so far.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Walsh's praise borders on the type of stuff he admitted to writing about Sean Kelly years ago, a fan with a typewriter was what he referred to himself as. well it appears the fan is back.

Must be why the Sky PR department costs more than the R&D.

Wonder what Ballestere thinks of SKY.

 

[thehog]

Must be why the Sky PR department costs more than the R&D.

Wonder what Ballestere thinks of SKY.

Looking forward to Walsh's update tomorrow.

@DavidWalshST: Might be biased by Wiggo just nailed a BB in under 30 minutes! Should be good for the 1st MTF!

 

[Benotti69]

The whys do not matter, the fact he has been poor in this race does.

If wiggins didn't hang on today he would have been (rightly) ridiculed however it wouldn't be a shock giving his Giro so far.

I didn't mention ridicule. Walsh mentioned Gutsy. I didn't see Gutsy, which is a positive spin on it. I thought of lots of other terms, nothing positive from a racing point of view to describe Wiggins, a seasoned pro, ride in the rain last 2 road stages.

Wiggins does not look like he wants to be there. Even Walsh said it. Why? In 2007 he was not able to be at the front because of the EPO. Now in this new and improved cleanER peloton rolleyes Wiggins is winning GTs, what's not to like, no matter the weather. He has been wanting and waiting to be in this position since he was 12, now he looks like " would rather be at the dentist's ".

No it would appear that Wiggins has lost the 'guts' to 'race', rather he was given his procession for 3 weeks, afterall he is a knight of the realm or some such!

 

[hrotha]

The doctor will seriously argue anything.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The doctor will seriously argue anything.

And those who have no argument make personal comments.

 

[ferryman]

And those who have no argument make personal comments.

And then a mod slopes in to remind everyone this is a happy place to post without personals Back to Calif for me.

 

[Benotti69]

The doctor will seriously argue anything.

It doesn't reach the lofty heights of arguing.

 

[Trace Elements]

I think it was a very gutsy performance by Wiggins to make his way up the field on the last climb whilst the likes of Hesjedal cracked, and then battle to hold the front group on the last descent to the finish.

As to Walsh. If Sky really are running a team wide doping program, it's a hell of a risk to have someone like Walsh poking his nose in every where they go. Not just risky due to possibly stumbling across something incriminating or over hearing something, but also because if they're all lying to him every day, a smart journalist can smell dishonesty in the air. Is there a precedent for a known anti doping journalist parading around with a dirty team and giving them a clean bill of health? I doubt there is, and there is a reason for that. A group of kid riders aren't very good at lying all the time. Some might be, but not all will, and you can see through it quick enough.

 

[thehog]

I think it was a very gutsy performance by Wiggins to make his way up the field on the last climb whilst the likes of Hesjedal cracked, and then battle to hold the front group on the last descent to the finish.

As to Walsh. If Sky really are running a team wide doping program, it's a hell of a risk to have someone like Walsh poking his nose in every where they go. Not just risky due to possibly stumbling across something incriminating or over hearing something, but also because if they're all lying to him every day, a smart journalist can smell dishonesty in the air. Is there a precedent for a known anti doping journalist parading around with a dirty team and giving them a clean bill of health? I doubt there is, and there is a reason for that. A group of kid riders aren't very good at lying all the time. Some might be, but not all will, and you can see through it quick enough.

Love is blind.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

And those who have no argument make personal comments.

When one is the master of disguising they call him doc?