Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Trace Elements]

My intention is not to argue, least of all with you.

your pedantism is sometimes worth playing along with, other times not.

Gutsy was not an accurate description of Wiggins performance. But you dont want to argue that.

Wiggins is the current TdF champ barely able to hang on, due to the rain. He has not had an injury or suffring an illness, so no not in any context could it be described as gutsy.

How many wet descents were there in the tour de france? I can't remember any. These are extreme conditions and Wiggins obviously doesn't fair well in them going down hill. That he was able to get back on, climb to the front group, then stick with Nibali to the end was gutsy. Last years winner failed.

There are other examples where great TdF champions have struggled and battled back, and we call it gutsy. Once you win the tour it doesn't mean you can never be gutsy again unless you win.

 

[Catwhoorg]

My intention is not to argue, least of all with you.

your pedantism is sometimes worth playing along with, other times not.

Gutsy was not an accurate description of Wiggins performance. But you dont want to argue that.

Wiggins is the current TdF champ barely able to hang on, due to the rain. He has not had an injury or suffring an illness, so no not in any context could it be described as gutsy.

It may not be a major injury, but he certainly lost some skin on his previous crashes. That may be just enough to knock someones confidence.


As an aside, never noticed the target icon on his TT getup before. Does anyone know if he got the Olympic rings tattoo, that seemed prevalent for 2012 competitors.

 

[the sceptic]

Jeez Wiggins is skinny. Its almost uncomfortable to look at that

 

[thehog]

It may not be a major injury, but he certainly lost some skin on his previous crashes. That may be just enough to knock someones confidence.

I wonder what Nibili's back looks like. Must be a mess unlike his confidence.

 

[rata de sentina]

Vortex in action. Spiralling. Don't look too long.

Vortex.

Good post hog.
Still I love the vortex and I'm sure that deep down inside you do too.
It's a joy to behold and is usually well directed.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Jeez Wiggins is skinny. Its almost uncomfortable to look at that

And yet he is above 'race weight' by last years standards.

*boggle*

 

[Catwhoorg]

I wonder what Nibili's back looks like. Must be a mess unlike his confidence.

Could well be. And thats why I think Nibbles will win this Giro.

 

[maxmartin]

[

It may not be a major injury, but he certainly lost some skin on his previous crashes. That may be just enough to knock someones confidence.


As an aside, never noticed the target icon on his TT getup before. Does anyone know if he got the Olympic rings tattoo, that seemed prevalent for 2012 competitors.

Are you sure that is Target? Is Target popular in Britain?

 

[simo1733]

Are you sure that is Target? Is Target popular in Britain?

It is if you are a mod.

 

[ianfra]

Not when you're only mentioning Dowsett's win in passing, and then end up dedicating most of the mention to his relationship to Lance Armstrong. It's not fair to Dowsett and puts him in a worse light than he deserves. However, I don't mind that as much as the double standard, that's what I have a real problem with.

Dowsett is a clean rider. Please don't start on him too.

 

[Franklin]

Dowsett is a clean rider. Please don't start on him too.

This is so amusing in itself.

1. You only focus at Wiggins.
2. Don't start about rider X, he's clean!

And once again we will see Ianfra retreat from the following irrefutable facts about cycling:

Ianfra, there was once a Brittish rider who knew that it would take many years before cycling would be trusted and that cyclists has to accpet that. Just a few years later the same rider goes foaming at the mouth at the first mention of the "D" word.

Ianfra, cycing has been rife with doping, in which every star has been implicated in doping. Why are the English clean? They certainly have their own share of dopers, so it can't be a superior culture. So what's the magic that changed the psyche of just this country and nobody else?

Ianfra, with the amount of scandals and current day doping it's fair to say doping is still an issue. How is it possible that a clean team is so dominant?

Ianfra, we have been burned many times, we have seen this movie many times. It's a statistical thing you know. Your faith is against tremendous odds. And faith has usually no bearing on reality as Galileo noticed

 

[ianfra]

This is so amusing in itself.

1. You only focus at Wiggins.
2. Don't start about rider X, he's clean!

And once again we will see Ianfra retreat from the following irrefutable facts about cycling:

Ianfra, there was once a Brittish rider who knew that it would take many years before cycling would be trusted and that cyclists has to accpet that. Just a few years later the same rider goes foaming at the mouth at the first mention of the "D" word.

Ianfra, cycing has been rife with doping, in which every star has been implicated in doping. Why are the English clean? They certainly have their own share of dopers, so it can't be a superior culture. So what's the magic that changed the psyche of just this country and nobody else?

Ianfra, with the amount of scandals and current day doping it's fair to say doping is still an issue. How is it possible that a clean team is so dominant?

Ianfra, we have been burned many times, we have seen this movie many times. It's a statistical thing you know. Your faith is against tremendous odds. And faith has usually no bearing on reality as Galileo noticed

You may share my name but that is about all. What you post is your personal opinion which is not based on any facts. Which is the trend throughout this thread. People making assumptions from the point of view of their own prejudices and that's about all. It goes nowhere it helps no one.
As for Sky, though I may be a bit ambivalent towards the Sky Corporation I have to reluctantly agree that they have been great for British Cycling, helping to raise its profile as whole and helping the sport from the grass roots upwards. That is not to say that they are beyond criticism - I have seen enøugh of politics in my time (and in Thailand and Myanmar at the moment where people criticising commercial organisations for, say, environmental reasons have been murdered) to know that whatever 'good works' you do does not put you beyond scrutiny.
But I have to say from my experience that doping is not rife in British cycle sport and where it has been, it has been stamped on (Ken Hill for example in the 60s). Within the UK sport I know which riders I suspect (but I would not name them in public as I have no evidence) and I know which riders are clean.
Those of you who have not been as involved in the UK scene as I have, speak from a very shaky foundation. That's up to you. But what I have constantly asked here is not to make accusations without evidence. That would be the decent thing to do. If not you are probably just libeling people which, to me, is as bad as cheating people by doping whilst racing.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

But I have to say from my experience that doping is not rife in British cycle sport and where it has been, it has been stamped on (Ken Hill for example in the 60s). Within the UK sport I know which riders I suspect (but I would not name them in public as I have no evidence) and I know which riders are clean.

Do you know those riders are clean, or is it your opinion?

How do you know?

It's your opinion.

 

[ianfra]

For some riders I know and others I have a strong opinion. I will not tell you how I know, that information is up to me and not for a public forum. However, I am happy to amend my post to say that "in my opinion these riders are clean" and "in my opinion there are some riders who were not" and others I do not know anything about but I would suspect that these riders are clean too.
What I do not say, unlike many posters in this thread is that "so and so is definately taking drugs". This is utterly wrong.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Slip

Does it matter?

Wiggins cant descend yes. Walsh is acting a bit like a bieber fan. Not really much else to it.

Whether wiggins was or wasnt able to descend at another time is needles bickering of little relevance that merely pushes hrothas on the dot summary of the situation onto a previous page.

good freudian slip

 

[Dear Wiggo]

For some riders I know and others I have a strong opinion. I will not tell you how I know, that information is up to me and not for a public forum. However, I am happy to amend my post to say that "in my opinion these riders are clean" and "in my opinion there are some riders who were not" and others I do not know anything about but I would suspect that these riders are clean too.
What I do not say, unlike many posters in this thread is that "so and so is definately taking drugs". This is utterly wrong.

How long ago did you move to Thailand? I thought you had been there a while? Surely this speaks to how firmly your finger is on the "pulse" of cycling cleanliness in the UK scene?

And says nothing of your pro scene insight, where riders spend the majority of their time nowhere near the UK, or Thailand for that matter.

I respect your desire for privacy, although having proof of cleanliness would hardly seem something requiring such discretion. It seems a rather curious position to take, to be honest, but each to their own.

Do you see any parallels between yourself, your UK cycling contacts / insight / attention to detail and belief of cleanliness of certain UK riders and someone like, say,
* Phil Ligett: who knew Lance quite well, and swore LA was clean, or
* Hein Verbruggen: who is quoted as saying Lance, "Never, never, never doped", or
* David Brailsford: who hired Gert Leinders despite a zero tolerance policy?

Is your source more believable / honest / reputable than those three quick examples?

 

[Benotti69]

[

It may not be a major injury, but he certainly lost some skin on his previous crashes. That may be just enough to knock someones confidence.


As an aside, never noticed the target icon on his TT getup before. Does anyone know if he got the Olympic rings tattoo, that seemed prevalent for 2012 competitors.

His off was nothing. My kid got worse than that last week in the school yard. She was back out again at it the next day. Must ring Brailsford on her behalf

Wiggins has had a lot worse.

 

[Benotti69]

For some riders I know and others I have a strong opinion. I will not tell you how I know, that information is up to me and not for a public forum. However, I am happy to amend my post to say that "in my opinion these riders are clean" and "in my opinion there are some riders who were not" and others I do not know anything about but I would suspect that these riders are clean too.
What I do not say, unlike many posters in this thread is that "so and so is definately taking drugs". This is utterly wrong.

Your years at cyclingweekly where you ignored the doping and followed omerta really are standing you in good stead now.

 

[ianfra]

Your years at cyclingweekly where you ignored the doping and followed omerta really are standing you in good stead now.

Very interesting post. I was at CW during the 1960s. I was an apprentice. I attended the London College of Journalism. My in-depth feature (similar to a dissertation now) was entitled "Drugs in Sport". It included interviews with athletes and cyclists. The word "omerta" was not known to us. The work I did on my dissertation did not ignore doping.

Happily: the poster has proved my point. There are posters here who point fingers, make direct accusations and come to some amazing conclusions without any knowledge. Benotti has made a load of accusations about me without any knowledge whatsoever. Therefore he is incorrect.

 

[rata de sentina]

His off was nothing. My kid got worse than that last week in the school yard. She was back out again at it the next day. Must ring Brailsford on her behalf

Wiggins has had a lot worse.

In Wiggins defence he did admit to: "descending like a girl".

 

[Benotti69]

Very interesting post. I was at CW during the 1960s. I was an apprentice. I attended the London College of Journalism. My in-depth feature (similar to a dissertation now) was entitled "Drugs in Sport". It included interviews with athletes and cyclists. The word "omerta" was not known to us. The work I did on my dissertation did not ignore doping.

Happily: the poster has proved my point. There are posters here who point fingers, make direct accusations and come to some amazing conclusions without any knowledge. Benotti has made a load of accusations about me without any knowledge whatsoever. Therefore he is incorrect.

Post up all your journalism on doping in sport and your speciality cycling.

As for pointing fingers, you declared your journalism pedigree and yet failed to question anything about teamSky.

 

[martinvickers]

Are you sure that is Target? Is Target popular in Britain?

It's not a target, or anything to do with TARGET (tm).

It's an RAF roundel, classic mod symbol.

 

[ianfra]

Post up all your journalism on doping in sport and your speciality cycling.

As for pointing fingers, you declared your journalism pedigree and yet failed to question anything about teamSky.

No. I don't have to post anything here.
But please make sure in the future that when you post you don't say "Your years at Cyclingweekly where you ignored ........." This comes out as an accusation and statement of fact. What you should say is "You spent time at Cycling Weekly. During that time did you ignore doping [etc] .....?"
You see the difference? One is making a horrible accusation and the other is seeking facts. Horrible accusations should earn you an infraction ..... (lol) but really I understand where you are coming from. No probs.

 

[SundayRider]

Not when you're only mentioning Dowsett's win in passing, and then end up dedicating most of the mention to his relationship to Lance Armstrong. It's not fair to Dowsett and puts him in a worse light than he deserves. However, I don't mind that as much as the double standard, that's what I have a real problem with.

Why would Dowsett, a British rider leave the all conquering, super clean British squad?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Why would Dowsett, a British rider leave the all conquering, super clean British squad?

Because he was getting as much road time as he wanted.