Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[taiwan]

So are we saying, to Wiggins' credit, that he was clean pre 2009?

 

[ToreBear]

So are we saying, to Wiggins' credit, that he was clean pre 2009?

Having read this entire thread I think we can say yes, and clean after too. In fact I think we all agree sky are clean. Thats why this thread is so long.

Everyone is struggling to come with with one crazy hypothesis about possible doping after an other in order to disprove them being clean. Still no luck but everyone keeps on dutifully trying even so.

 

[taiwan]

Having read this entire thread I think we can say yes, and clean after too. In fact I think we all agree sky are clean. Thats why this thread is so long.

Everyone is struggling to come with with one crazy hypothesis about possible doping after an other in order to disprove them being clean. Still no luck but everyone keeps on dutifully trying even so.

Have you ever seen 'cycling'? It's an endurance sport where people race on two wheeled, pedal driven machines. It's good, you should check it out.

 

[the sceptic]

Have you ever seen 'cycling'? It's an endurance sport where people race on two wheeled, pedal driven machines. It's good, you should check it out.

Pretty sure he said he started watching cycling in 2012 so i wouldnt take anything he says seriously

 

[BroDeal]

Pretty sure he said he started watching cycling in 2012 so i wouldnt take anything he says seriously

If the 1999 fans and the 2012 fans had a rumble, who would win?

 

[BigClinicIsGoingToJail]

If the 1999 fans and the 2012 fans had a rumble, who would win?

But the 1999 trolls and the 2012 trolls are the same people, so they can't really rumble.

 

[The Hitch]

Lol did some bozo mod really delete bcigtj's first post from a week ago about how he was going to sue the clinic on behalf of sky. It was clearly a joke and quite funny at that too.

 

[thehog]

Lol did some bozo mod really delete bcigtj's first post from a week ago about how he was going to sue the clinic on behalf of sky. It was clearly a joke and quite funny at that too.

The Clinic indictments will be coming down before the Superbowl on a Tuesday.

It will be big.

Kim Dot Com will set up a rebel Clinic on a Malaysian ISP. The Clinic will go rogue.

Skybots have been deployed but to no effect - Sky lawyers will shut down the Clinic talk.

The Sky suit will be all over the press. Sky will even sue Google and have any video of Froome riding sideways up hills removed.

Videos of Wiggins riding in the grupetto will be erased.

 

[blackcat]

The Clinic indictments will be coming down before the Superbowl on a Tuesday.

It will be big.

Kim Dot Com will set up a rebel Clinic on a Malaysian ISP. The Clinic will go rogue.

Skybots have been deployed but to no effect - Sky lawyers will shut down the Clinic talk.

The Sky suit will be all over the press. Sky will even sue Google and have any video of Froome riding sideways up hills removed.

Videos of Wiggins riding in the grupetto will be erased.

like those Xtra Normal videos by Really Fake Frankie on Youtube. they were genius. if they had only lasted another 18 months for USADA they could not have been taken down.

 

[blackcat]

So are we saying, to Wiggins' credit, that he was clean pre 2009?

not at all. this defies any intelligence to assume one goes from never a hypodermic IN MY LIFE!!! to pulling the trigger on a Tour de France medical program. always would have doped. just ramped it up.

the cycling norms wrt doping, do not make it an ethical choice. that needs to be premised in any discussion on the matter. which is what makes it all the more galling when one recalls the way he chewed out moreni publically at the 2006 tour when on cofidis. hypocrisy much. THAT, goes to his character. chewing out moreni for doping when he was doing the same thing.

 

[Netserk]

I think you mean the 2007 Tour

 

[ToreBear]

Have you ever seen 'cycling'? It's an endurance sport where people race on two wheeled, pedal driven machines. It's good, you should check it out.

No need, after having read this thread I know all the details.

Pretty sure he said he started watching cycling in 2012 so i wouldnt take anything he says seriously

I started watching in july 2011, but continued watching was put on hold due to events happening closer to home when watching a stage on 22. july, which gave unfortunate associations with cycling. I resumed watching in 2012 and found I quite enjoyed it again.

So yes, I missed the period of incredible performances of the 90s and 00 which would have given me a good baseline on which to judge what is normal without doping.

 

[Galic Ho]

No need, after having read this thread I know all the details.



I started watching in july 2011, but continued watching was put on hold due to events happening closer to home when watching a stage on 22. july, which gave unfortunate associations with cycling. I resumed watching in 2012 and found I quite enjoyed it again.

So yes, I missed the period of incredible performances of the 90s and 00 which would have given me a good baseline on which to judge what is normal without doping.

Sounds like you'd have had a blast in the 90s!

Man you missed some good times. Polish and Arbiter sure could have used your cheerful demeanor and candid honesty about doping against the Clinic 12 when the Clinic first started 4 years ago.

 

[ToreBear]

If the 1999 fans and the 2012 fans had a rumble, who would win?

The 1999 fans obviously, they would have more energy.....

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

not at all. this defies any intelligence to assume one goes from never a hypodermic IN MY LIFE!!! to pulling the trigger on a Tour de France medical program. always would have doped. just ramped it up.

the cycling norms wrt doping, do not make it an ethical choice. that needs to be premised in any discussion on the matter. which is what makes it all the more galling when one recalls the way he chewed out moreni publically at the 2006 tour when on cofidis. hypocrisy much. THAT, goes to his character. chewing out moreni for doping when he was doing the same thing.

Interesting. He needed PEDs to hang on the back of the Grupetto and a few years later he just ramped his program up to win the tdf? Is it that easy?

 

[ToreBear]

Sounds like you'd have had a blast in the 90s!

Man you missed some good times. Polish and Arbiter sure could have used your cheerful demeanor and candid honesty about doping against the Clinic 12 when the Clinic first started 4 years ago.

Yep, I'm stuck with watching youtube videos of Bjarne and Lance crushing the opposition on the ascents. Though I must admit, I find it quite enjoyable, knowing what they were on.

4 years ago I would have needed to believe Armstrong was clean, that would have needed some serious positive thinking. Don't think I would have had it in me. Thank god I didn't try, I would have been left with a ton of egg on my face.

Now I think the risk off egg on face is much reduced, so I can let my optimism and naivety run free!

 

[Freddythefrog]

not at all. this defies any intelligence to assume one goes from never a hypodermic IN MY LIFE!!! to pulling the trigger on a Tour de France medical program. always would have doped. just ramped it up.

the cycling norms wrt doping, do not make it an ethical choice. that needs to be premised in any discussion on the matter.

At Sydney Wiggins partnered Hayles in the Madison,
Hayles also rode the individual pursuit to 4th. 1st was ex East German Athlete Robert Bartko who rode for Telekom and then Rabobank during the time of Leinders. Bartko rode various 6 days with Zabel.
2nd was Jens Lehman, also of Germany, who had earlier ridden for Telekom.

Brad also rode the team pursuit as one of 5.They achieved third behind Germany and the Ukraine. As a result of a blood test in 1999, Sirhiy Honchar had to be withdrawn from the Tour de Suisse and "rest". (No cosy chats with Hein for the guy from behind the iron curtain!). Again T Mobile are in the mix and they suspend him for 30 days in 2007 when he again fails blood tests, twice. For example at the 2006 tour Honchar beat Landis, Zabriskie, Lang, Rogers, Kloden, Evans and Wiggins in the time trials.

I can quote PED violations for those finishing below the medal slots in 2000.

Honchar never, ever failed a drugs test. Hayles never, ever failed a drugs test.

By the early 90's everyone knew that EPO had changed the nature of the competition. As Junior Brad joined the senior ranks in 1999, he would quickly been exposed to how the land lay.

 

[Galic Ho]

Yep, I'm stuck with watching youtube videos of Bjarne and Lance crushing the opposition on the ascents. Though I must admit, I find it quite enjoyable, knowing what they were on.

4 years ago I would have needed to believe Armstrong was clean, that would have needed some serious positive thinking. Don't think I would have had it in me. Thank god I didn't try, I would have been left with a ton of egg on my face.

Now I think the risk off egg on face is much reduced, so I can let my optimism and naivety run free!

Four years ago was when Armstrong's myth started to unravel. It's not my call to make, but a lot of people had their eyes opened when he returned in 2009. The shine had worn off and the truth became apparent. All it took was Landis to admit he'd been lying and wallah! USADA bags their target.

Finding out about doping, depends on people's willingness to question and push the boundaries of their own cognitive dissonance. FWIW, in 2009, the Clinic was a very, very educational place, most of it centered on LA.

Those were the days!!

 

[Netserk]

Interesting. He needed PEDs to hang on the back of the Grupetto and a few years later he just ramped his program up to win the tdf? Is it that easy?

Interesting. Armstrong needed PEDs to DNF the Tour thrice and a few years later he just ramped his program up to win the tdf? Is it that easy?

 

[Freddythefrog]

Four years ago was when Armstrong's myth started to unravel. It's not my call to make, but a lot of people had their eyes opened when he returned in 2009. The shine had worn off and the truth became apparent. All it took was Landis to admit he'd been lying and wallah! USADA bags their target.

Finding out about doping, depends on people's willingness to question and push the boundaries of their own cognitive dissonance. FWIW, in 2009, the Clinic was a very, very educational place, most of it centered on LA.

Those were the days!!

Another very good post. The point I tried to make in the Hayles thread was how long the myth about professional wrestling stood ground. On its own, in isolation, people would have observed the "circus" and walked away, as they had for decades before. It was a fairground attraction that not too many people paid to go and see. But National TV was relatively new and was there to be believed. The commentators tale and the mere fact that it had plenty of prime time air, meant people's guard was down. "It could not be a con - surely not", when it most surely was. The Lance years, the role of American media and his return from cancer and now the Sky years and the British media have made this a classic. So many people have invested so much into these stories, that the threshold of evidence to get them to dump their belief system is gigantic.

Talk to a non-sporting person and you get a far better take it all. I could paraphrase the near 100% uniform response map from those acquaintances to whom I have spoken about PEDs.
Did Lance dope ? Yes.
Did Lance test positive ? No.
Are the tests rubbish? Yes.
Are the officials corrupt ? Certainly, that is how they got there.
Do you think Bradley is clean? Unlikely.
Do you think Bradley will be exposed? Unlikely, too many corrupt officials have made good on his achievements. You can't win an event like the Tour de France on your own.

 

[Galic Ho]

Interesting. Armstrong needed PEDs to DNF the Tour thrice and a few years later he just ramped his program up to win the tdf? Is it that easy?

Ferrari changes things with doping. Removes the doubt and the idiocy.

Substitute what is probably a long string of names for Sky's equivalent and yeah, you can ramp the program up and be a winner.

Big determinant is the room to improve. Already really good guys aren't going to improve as much, well that's what JV hinted at here. Gotta have low blood figures to get the biggest gains relative to your competition.

Which is how we end up with a Chris Froome.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Interesting. Armstrong needed PEDs to DNF the Tour thrice and a few years later he just ramped his program up to win the tdf? Is it that easy?

When there was no test for EPO and no BP it was surely easier for Riis and Armstrong to go from pack fodder to champions? If today's controls were in place then they would have got popped, no?

 

[ToreBear]

Four years ago was when Armstrong's myth started to unravel. It's not my call to make, but a lot of people had their eyes opened when he returned in 2009. The shine had worn off and the truth became apparent. All it took was Landis to admit he'd been lying and wallah! USADA bags their target.

Finding out about doping, depends on people's willingness to question and push the boundaries of their own cognitive dissonance. FWIW, in 2009, the Clinic was a very, very educational place, most of it centered on LA.

Those were the days!!

Well the threads are still there. When I first started finding out about the history of the doping I had high hopes that Indurain was clean(as in not on epo), but with the help of these old threads and research on the web the arguments for this being true became more and more tenuous. Still I struggled, but in the end I could not see him as clean anymore. Perhaps there is a string of hope that he won his first tour clean, but even my optimism has trouble grasping that possibility.

The clinic, where heroes die and fantasy meets reality.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

When there was no test for EPO and no BP it was surely easier for Riis and Armstrong to go from pack fodder to champions? If today's controls were in place then they would have got popped, no?

Depends if you believe LA rode 2009/2010 clean or not, innit?

 

[Galic Ho]

Well the threads are still there. When I first started finding out about the history of the doping I had high hopes that Indurain was clean(as in not on epo), but with the help of these old threads and research on the web the arguments for this being true became more and more tenuous. Still I struggled, but in the end I could not see him as clean anymore. Perhaps there is a string of hope that he won his first tour clean, but even my optimism has trouble grasping that possibility.

The clinic, where heroes die and fantasy meets reality.

The last man to win the Tour or dare I say any GT clean, was Greg Lemond in 1990.

Bugno and Indurain were the first EPO winners. Lemond and Fignon use to smoke them silly in the mountains. Then they're getting dropped and becoming domestiques for them the next year. Big tell.

Edit: I thought Bugno won the 91 Giro. He won the 90 Giro. Scrap his name then. Indurain IMO can take the title for first epo GT winner.