Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Benotti69]

Interesting. Armstrong needed PEDs to DNF the Tour thrice and a few years later he just ramped his program up to win the tdf? Is it that easy?

Armstrong was always doping. That doctors like Conconi and later Ferrari perfected the doping was what made the difference. Armstrong knew that the right Doctor made all the diference hence he needed to have Ferarri exclusively to himself.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Depends if you believe LA rode 2009/2010 clean or not, innit?

He saw the light and became a believer. Don't you remember , he told Oprah, he told us. You know, when he confessed to everything. All these new riders, they are all clean just like he was on his comeback. You can't beat the system now. He just knew there was no way he could carry on like he did in the past without getting busted so, what the heck, he gave it his best shot totally clean.

 

[blackcat]

Well the threads are still there. When I first started finding out about the history of the doping I had high hopes that Indurain was clean(as in not on epo), but with the help of these old threads and research on the web the arguments for this being true became more and more tenuous. Still I struggled, but in the end I could not see him as clean anymore. Perhaps there is a string of hope that he won his first tour clean, but even my optimism has trouble grasping that possibility.

The clinic, where heroes die and fantasy meets reality.

indeed, that is a great potential aphorism. i'm gunna play jarize

 

[veganrob]

When there was no test for EPO and no BP it was surely easier for Riis and Armstrong to go from pack fodder to champions? If today's controls were in place then they would have got popped, no?

No. The best doping doctors are still years ahead of the testing. The only fools that get caught are trying to do it themseves. Small potatoes.

 

[blackcat]

The last man to win the Tour or dare I say any GT clean, was Greg Lemond in 1990.

Bugno and Indurain were the first EPO winners. Lemond and Fignon use to smoke them silly in the mountains. Then they're getting dropped and becoming domestiques for them the next year. Big tell.

yeah. greg. not o2 vectors.

but cant help thinking, if he did not find some small help, inferior to others of his era like badger. no cortisone, no nothing even after his bro in law filled him with buck shot.

dont bother me that much, really. it was the last of the era before o2 infected the sport and heavyweights like mig and barney are winning the tour and setting records up climbs. that i know is. NOT NORMAL

 

[blackcat]

When there was no test for EPO and no BP it was surely easier for Riis and Armstrong to go from pack fodder to champions? If today's controls were in place then they would have got popped, no?

No. The best doping doctors are still years ahead of the testing. The only fools that get caught are trying to do it themseves. Small potatoes.

Ashenden has demonstrated that the biopassport is beatable with EPO.

just mainline microdoses and you can beat it.

 

[blackcat]

Armstrong was always doping. That doctors like Conconi and later Ferrari perfected the doping was what made the difference. Armstrong knew that the right Doctor made all the diference hence he needed to have Ferarri exclusively to himself.

dont forget cecchini.
he had basso aka birillo, and der keiser ullrich

 

[blackcat]

Sounds like you'd have had a blast in the 90s!

Man you missed some good times. Polish and Arbiter sure could have used your cheerful demeanor and candid honesty about doping against the Clinic 12 when the Clinic first started 4 years ago.

he took a few years to come, sorry, atleast one year to start trolling. Arbiter was his first iteration. BanProCycling was another early marque

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Depends if you believe LA rode 2009/2010 clean or not, innit?

Clean, no. As much as before? Probably not.

 

[blackcat]

Clean, no. As much as before? Probably not.

sdefinitely as much as before. he came back to win. armstrong does not do second place. look at his face on the podium at the tour de france in 99.

 

[Galic Ho]

he took a few years to come, sorry, atleast one year to start trolling. Arbiter was his first iteration. BanProCycling was another early marque

Oh I know. I remember it fondly.

Arbiter. Then BanProCycling. Followed by BritishProCycling, his sock puppet account WonderLance. Then about a good dozen or so random names. Last iteration I believe was Joaquim and then there was talk Laura whatshername was BPC.

Good times. Good times. I still remember someone saying they got a PM from one of the later iterations and that each time Bala Verde banned him almost straight away.

 

[Galic Ho]

sdefinitely as much as before. he came back to win. armstrong does not do second place. look at his face on the podium at the tour de france in 99.

You mean 09? Because he looked peeved and really snarly when Contador walked past him with the winners trophy.

 

[Galic Ho]

yeah. greg. not o2 vectors.

but cant help thinking, if he did not find some small help, inferior to others of his era like badger. no cortisone, no nothing even after his bro in law filled him with buck shot.

dont bother me that much, really. it was the last of the era before o2 infected the sport and heavyweights like mig and barney are winning the tour and setting records up climbs. that i know is. NOT NORMAL

Was just reading his wiki page. Said during the end of 89 Giro Fignon won, which he was riding as training, thinking he was going to retire, that he had some form of anemia treatment that helped him in the final ITT where he came second.

I'd never heard that before. What does it meean? I have no clue. But given the description of his ailments after the hunting accident, well it seems to be expected. 3 shotgun pellets on the lining of his heart, appendix removed, multiple other pellets on other organs. Yeah nasty stuff and a 65% blood loss. Lucky to even be alive.

Like you said, Big Mig was not normal. Just cracking 10th in the Tour, because of his chrono but over 12 minutes back and from breakaways back in 89. But that was the product of Conconi and Ferrari's early work with Banesto, Gewiss and Mapei; guys who were big could suddenly climb better than Luis Herrera.

I can stomach Mig a little more than Riis. He finished behind Paul Kimmage in the 89 Tour in 80 something spot. 7 years later he won the Tour. That ain't normal either.

Stomach them more than the Sky boys? I hope Wiggins doesn't become a Riis type. Man that'd be bad.

 

[Ripper]

Yep, I'm stuck with watching youtube videos of Bjarne and Lance crushing the opposition on the ascents. Though I must admit, I find it quite enjoyable, knowing what they were on.

4 years ago I would have needed to believe Armstrong was clean, that would have needed some serious positive thinking. Don't think I would have had it in me. Thank god I didn't try, I would have been left with a ton of egg on my face.

Now I think the risk off egg on face is much reduced, so I can let my optimism and naivety run free!

Watching those older races, where folks had to hit the brakes on switchbacks when climbing, was priceless!

 

[Benotti69]

dont forget cecchini.
he had basso aka birillo, and der keiser ullrich

and Wiggins/Froome/Porte had Leinders

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

yeah. greg. not o2 vectors.

but cant help thinking, if he did not find some small help, inferior to others of his era like badger. no cortisone, no nothing even after his bro in law filled him with buck shot.

dont bother me that much, really. it was the last of the era before o2 infected the sport and heavyweights like mig and barney are winning the tour and setting records up climbs. that i know is. NOT NORMAL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qgmEDkIrDfM#t=2875s

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily
#Tour 1990, Luz Ardiden (13.30 km, 7.44 %, 989 m). Greg LeMond: 39 min 46 sec, 20.07 Kph, VAM 1492 m/h, ~5.40-5.50 W/kg.

Rigo Uran in 2011: 38.35
But he is Colombian of course.

 

[Tinman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qgmEDkIrDfM#t=2875s

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily
#Tour 1990, Luz Ardiden (13.30 km, 7.44 %, 989 m). Greg LeMond: 39 min 46 sec, 20.07 Kph, VAM 1492 m/h, ~5.40-5.50 W/kg.

Rigo Uran in 2011: 38.35
But he is Colombian of course.

And presumably a fair bit lighter. Not sure what W/kg that would be but can only guess. And with a clean team.

 

[blackcat]

leinders aint the preparatore par excellence tho

 

[blackcat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qgmEDkIrDfM#t=2875s

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily
#Tour 1990, Luz Ardiden (13.30 km, 7.44 %, 989 m). Greg LeMond: 39 min 46 sec, 20.07 Kph, VAM 1492 m/h, ~5.40-5.50 W/kg.

Rigo Uran in 2011: 38.35
But he is Colombian of course.

transfusions and epo similars... changed the game.

 

[taiwan]

leinders aint the preparatore par excellence tho

So who did Wiggins / and/or Froome? That is the question. I know thehog says Ferrari.

 

[thehog]

So who did Wiggins / and/or Froome? That is the question. I know thehog says Ferrari.

Ferrari is the Don. Son Stefino is ready to take over the empire and extend the dynasty.

Kerrison has made a name for himself in other circles. But he's exclusive at the moment. He will need to go freelance soon and move to Switzerland.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

And presumably a fair bit lighter. Not sure what W/kg that would be but can only guess. And with a clean team.

Vetoo puts LeMond at 5.4/5.5w/k for that climb. Lets take a 5% margin, that would put him at 5.8w/k or 5.25 w/k. Give or take. It is more likely he was at 5.8 wouldnt you say?

In my years of watching cycling I never saw someone doing what LeMond did on Luz Ardiden in 1990. Mind you, he had to make up more than two minutes on Capuccino. Not even mentioning the ease wich Indurain/Eporain rode away from him without coming out of the saddle with 250 metres to go.

Go watch Vetoo's site, take a 5% margin, downside and upside, compare it with Luz Ardiden 1990 and then conclude the state cycling is in.

Uran a better climber than Parra/Herrera/fill in any other Colombian of that time, uh uh. Mind you, he improved quite a bit this year.

Ellingworht is the Don.

Corrected that there for your pleasure hog. Hope I am not libel for it.

 

[airstream]

Oh, guys. I fear you have a lot of work in the thread in the future years. Nothing can save us from Sky GT expansion

 

[ToreBear]

indeed, that is a great potential aphorism. i'm gunna play jarize

Thanks, and go ahead, plagiarism is the highest form of flattery.

Ashenden has demonstrated that the biopassport is beatable with EPO.

just mainline microdoses and you can beat it.

I'm not so sure, a lot of things can and do go wrong when moving between a controlled environment and real life. It could be that Di Luca discovered this to his detriment. Also the effect you get from such a regime would IMHO be much smaller than in the 90s and early 00. Had Di Luca had a 90s program, I think he would be a few minutes ahead in the giro GC by the time he was kicked out, while all he did now was a few unsuccessful attacks.

 

[ToreBear]

Watching those older races, where folks had to hit the brakes on switchbacks when climbing, was priceless!

At least the motos could still keep their distance uphill.

If things had carried on in a linear fashion, that might have been an issue today, and the motos would need huge engines!