Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[ChewbaccaD]

I know one thing for sure...Cuddles isn't doping this year...

 

[red_flanders]

Yes, but they were one man trains with names like Merckx and Hinault, who would win 7 or 8 stages, including prologues, mountain stages, and sprint stages, and roll into Paris (where they'd also usually win the final stage) with big leads as much as 17 minutes. No need for trains with 70+ km team time trials and leaders who could solo off the front most of the day.

In 1986 Hinault and Lemond dropped the entire field and soloed up Alpe D'huez with such a large lead that they spent it talking out their differences....

Sky has dominated BMC, who have never put together good mountain support for Evans and Liquigas, who besides Basso, has Canuti, Koren, Nerz, Oss, Vanotti! Maybe not such a monumental domination in the history of the Tour.

12 months ago I'd have looked at the Sky roster and thought, "Gee, they have no one to support Wiggo in the mountains. And he's a second-rate climber at best, he's going to need it".

Things sure change.

 

[User Guide]

12 months ago I'd have looked at the Sky roster and thought, "Gee, they have no one to support Wiggo in the mountains. And he's a second-rate climber at best, he's going to need it".

Things sure change.

Yep times up mountains for 1

 

[wattage]

Wigans is the new Lance
Sky is the new USPS
Brailsford is the new Bruyneel

I guess more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[issoisso]

Anybody else notice the "moment of the day" videos on the official tour de france youtube account?

Specifically the music.

Every day, the moment is shown, accompanied by sad music if it's a mass crash or a major name seeing their hopes go down in flames, or uplifting music if it's a fine performance to win a stage (Froome, Vockler, Cancellara).

The stage 9 moment is Wiggins winning the TT. They chose the sad music

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Wigans is the new Lance
Sky is the new USPS
Brailsford is the new Bruyneel

I guess more things change, the more they stay the same.

From The catcher in the rye

"Certain things, they should stay the way they are. You ought to be able to stick them in one of those big glass cases and just leave them alone"

 

[Normandy]

From those in the know, can anyone tell me if there is any 'journalist' in addition to Kimmage who is not a fully paid up member of the Sky fan club? I am fed up with reading bigoted drivel in the British media.

Which cycling journalists are embedded or should I say in-bedded with Team Sky at the race?

 

[BroDeal]

Uh-oh.

Froome's girlfriend:
?@michellecound
Beyond disappointed…

@michellecound
"Don’t think there are many other pro-riders who’s partners know more about cycling than Chris’s" precisely & I know what happened just then

?@michellecound
If you want loyalty, get a Froome … a quality I value… although being taken advantage of by others!

Wiggo's wife:
Catherine wiggins ?@Cathwiggins1981
See Mick Rogers and Richie Porte for examples of genuine, selfless effort and true professionalism.

 

[taiwan]

Froome was also protected until the last climb and his acceleration was matched by everyone in his group except Wiggins.

you should watch it again. Everyone except Wiggins reacts. Pinot is immediately on Froome's wheel, Nibali is closing the gap when Froome shuts it down. Pinot jumps as soon as Froome slows and gets a gap.

Look, Nibali gets gapped and doesn't shut the attack down until Froome sits up. He's out of the saddle chasing when they cut to Wiggins, and when they cut back the gap is much the same.

*ignore*

 

[thehog]

Uh-oh.

Froome's girlfriend:
?@michellecound
Beyond disappointed…

@michellecound
"Don’t think there are many other pro-riders who’s partners know more about cycling than Chris’s" precisely & I know what happened just then

?@michellecound
If you want loyalty, get a Froome … a quality I value… although being taken advantage of by others!

Wiggo's wife:
Catherine wiggins ?@Cathwiggins1981
See Mick Rogers and Richie Porte for examples of genuine, selfless effort and true professionalism.

Ooooooo a bit of drama!

The girls are fighting!

 

[Fergoose]

Froome showing he is yet again far stronger than the team leader. Sky again showing that they strongly favour Wiggins at all costs. I’d love to see someone try to square that circle in terms of the logic of “systematic doping at Sky”. I’m still very much suspecting a lone doper in Froome, or at the very least, that he has a different supply to everyone else.

Today once again confirmed that Wiggins would be extremely vulnerable without Froome to pace him up the mountains. Vulnerable even to “merely” very good climbers like Nibali. Imagine what an elite climber like a fit Schleck would have done on todays stage – and this on a climb whose relatively shallow ascent should have suited Wiggins.

Rogers (multi times World TT champ & Tour of California Winner) and Porte (GT top 10 and white jersey winner at age of 25 years) are being described as average riders by those of a certain persuasion here. Half the peloton would give their eye teeth for such modest career success! Maybe there are no climbs in California and Italy?

And for those suggesting Sky make Porte & Rogers peel off for appearances sake, did you not see how that made Wiggins vulnerable?

I’m also glad to see the Wiggins getting gapped on the final climb by a French lad who just turned 22 (and has already put in an effort for a stage win) hasn’t thrown our diligent Clinic bloodhounds off the scent, eh lads?

 

[gthx_gthx_]

Froome showing he is yet again far stronger than the team leader. Sky again showing that they strongly favour Wiggins at all costs. I’d love to see someone try to square that circle in terms of the logic of “systematic doping at Sky”. I’m still very much suspecting a lone doper in Froome, or at the very least, that he has a different supply to everyone else.

Today once again confirmed that Wiggins would be extremely vulnerable without Froome to pace him up the mountains. Vulnerable even to “merely” very good climbers like Nibali. Imagine what an elite climber like a fit Schleck would have done on todays stage – and this on a climb whose relatively shallow ascent should have suited Wiggins.

Rogers (multi times World TT champ & Tour of California Winner) and Porte (GT top 10 and white jersey winner at age of 25 years) are being described as average riders by those of a certain persuasion here. Half the peloton would give their eye teeth for such modest career success! Maybe there are no climbs in California and Italy?

And for those suggesting Sky make Porte & Rogers peel off for appearances sake, did you not see how that made Wiggins vulnerable?

I’m also glad to see the Wiggins getting gapped on the final climb by a French lad who just turned 22 (and has already put in an effort for a stage win) hasn’t thrown our diligent Clinic bloodhounds off the scent, eh lads?

IMO Roger who's not so young and Porte have never been that strong , we are not talking calfornia or giro top 10 because of breakaway , we're talking about destroying the field whenever they want in the Tour de France.

 

[Benotti69]

From those in the know, can anyone tell me if there is any 'journalist' in addition to Kimmage who is not a fully paid up member of the Sky fan club? I am fed up with reading bigoted drivel in the British media.

Which cycling journalists are embedded or should I say in-bedded with Team Sky at the race?

Barry Glendenning who does the 'minute by minute' on the guardian is calling something similar to Kimmage in his reports.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jul/12/tour-de-france-stage-11-live

I'm not saying Sky cheat and I certainly don't think Wiggins does, but I do think Sky and he could do more to condemn those who do, rather than ... say, promising to be incredibly, totally open and accountable, then reneging on that promise. Or ..., say, promising to only employ doctors from outside the sport, then hiring a physician with a background in - what do you know? - cycling, whose reputation is murky to say the least.

I didn't say or even suggest or hint that Sky are guilty of anything beyond failing to keep promises they made three or four years ago, Matt. As they've broken lots of those, why on earth would I believe anything else they say? If they're so committed to anti-doping, why did they hire a doctor who worked for Rabobank when a couple of their riders tested positive?

I also think more cynical people than I are entitled to ask questions of them without being labelled '****ers' by Bradley Wiggins, considering his team's history of broken promises when it comes to transparency.

some examples of his

 

[Galic Ho]

I'll try and find it, there was some dudes blog examining what Wiggo's been doing differently this season. He's been concentrating on his high intensity stuff very early in the season and sticking a good number of quality blocks at altitude in.

The guy goes..Meanwhile here's what Frank and Andy were doing.. (photo of the bro's in a swimming pool playing with a dolphin). Cracked me up!

Ahhh. The old dolphin. If the guy you were listening to was paying attention, he could have dropped the other photos. You know, the 'other' photos. Alberto Contador was in some...on their joint holiday AFTER the 2009 Tour de France.

How about a mod reminds the troll to not play in the serious threads. That's what you are doing. You have no excuse, you've been a member here since 2009. Oh snap, the post count is down. Let me guess, we'd check and find majority have been made this season when Wigans (reverting back to this spelling because he deserves zero respect) was racing. If you'd paid attention around here in 2009, you'd have realised where the pictures were from and where. Check the hair for starters. Different hair cuts. You'd also realise the biggest Andy Schleck fan used the picture for most of 2010 as his avatar pic.

What you've done is try and perpetuate another lie on behalf of team Sky. The lie LA used, that the opposition are lazy and out of form. Yeah, because Nibali, Evans and every other major GC rider, is so out of form, they have been half-@rsing it this season. Deliberate trolling just like team SkyPED is deliberately doping. Go back to the pro forum, or one of the UK forums and stay with your ilk.

Oh and I would ask all the people here who seriously want to talk about doping to COMPLETELY ignore the blatant clowns who have come here to troll, who offer no rational argument and no answers to the questions posed. Just excuses and hammering of the team SkyPED deceitful PR blabber. Majority are new to the forum, the rest are blind fanboys, like Gloin22, Waterloo, someone with a tag beginning with F (there are 2, one is pro the other is anti SkyPED) etc. They belong in the pro forum, and ironically ONLY post in anything to do with Sky. That's because they are trolling fanboys. Do make a distinction for those who appear to be curious, like SaxonUK. Why? 100+ pages in three days and at least 50% of it is disruptive garbage. The posting synonymous with what Arbiter/BPC, Polish and ChrisE have done in the past and we all know the effect that had. Ignore them and they will post less frequently. They are taking advantage of the mods leniency.

 

[BroDeal]

Froome should go from far out on a climb. With the complete randomness of performances from year to year, who knows if he ever have another chance to win.

 

[Galic Ho]

I’ve changed my mind. It won’t be Cav who breaks and spills the beans.

It will be Porte. The guy actually has ambition himself but I believe his ambition is not to do it this way. I get the feeling he’s getting embarrassed even by his own performances. I predict he’ll be the one to start saying things which indicate the first sign of organized doping.

Maybe. But I doubt it. Has always had a smug look on his face hog. Plus he is from Tasmania...not exactly the most glowing section of Australia. For example, the tree hugging, latte sipping, cousin lovers of Tasmania (joking mods) elected the most loathed and hated member of Federal politics EVER. Bob Brown. Tool and muppet. Porte is from the area. I place less faith in him, even less in Rogers, than I do in Cav. Cav I can make an argument for being decent. Not Porte. Especially not Rogers.

Unless of course you are suggesting Porte left Saxo for Sky because he was embarassed about Riis and Contador? I don't think so. I think his ambition and desire is so great, he looked for the one team who he knew were doing better. It's no shock then that Sky was chosen. Someone said here the other week, might even have been you, that when looking for a new team, one looks at the medical program firstly. I think Porte knew exactly what he was doing.

I have a feeling Froome is higher on the suspicion list of the British fans than any other Sky rider. Even Wigans. That IMO, is kind of true and what I think, but I have known for a long time Wigans was super suspect. If anyone pops, it'll be him. He is the one who has been told to slow down, repeatedly. He's the one technically, being told he can't win, even though he is the strongest. Stupid really. Jealousy is a nasty little thing to deal with. He gets popped, or caught doing anything wrong, he'll crack. Then I suspect he'll squeal. Sky would have to turn on him, hence why I think he'd squeal. Wigans would deny till the cows come home. Not Froome. He's the one to apply pressure to.

 

[badboygolf16v]

I’m still very much suspecting a lone doper in Froome, or at the very least, that he has a different supply to everyone else.

How do you square that with his membership of Club Teide?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Rogers (multi times World TT champ & Tour of California Winner) and Porte (GT top 10 and white jersey winner at age of 25 years) are being described as average riders by those of a certain persuasion here. Half the peloton would give their eye teeth for such modest career success! Maybe there are no climbs in California and Italy?

Multiple World TT championships are irrelevant to shelling GC contenders on HC climbs. If Fabian Cancellara or Tony Martin did it, alarm bells would ring, notwithstanding that Rogers won those jerseys while racing for T-Mobile. California is certainly full of climbs, but in the 2010 edition the only relevant one was Bonny Doon; the other 'big climb' was the farcical Big Bear. It doesn't really matter what mountain range you can look at while you cycle down a flat road, winning the 2010 Tour of California is as much an indication of the ability to mow down the field in the Tour de France as a win on the cobbled climb of Gouveia in the Volta a Portugal is an indication of the ability to win the Ronde van Vlaanderen.

Richie Porte had no results to speak of before Romandie 2010 and very few to speak of between June 2010 and Algarve this year (though he had had some impressive shows in between, notably the Clasica San Sebastián in 2010). 2011 was more or less a write-off for him, which is why it's a bit of a shock for him to be as good as he is at this race.

But Porte is probably the least suspicious of the 4. It at least fits the template of building on his showings even if he did come from nowhere in 2010, it was coming from nowhere with a big slice of luck on his side. Froome's progress could have been considered consistent and unsuspicious only if we erase everything from August 2008 to August 2011 and replace it with much more convincing results.

 

[Darryl Webster]

What utter tosh...a quick Google would have told him this :"Brailsford revealed that Team Sky are investigating Leinders' past and acknowledged that there may be a "reputational risk".
And then this: "Brailsford and Team Sky reconsidered their medical policy – initially no practitioners with a background in cycling were to be hired – after the death of the carer Txema González following a bacterial infection contracted during the 2010 Vuelta a España, citing the need for specialist knowledge to put the riders first."

Txema was NOT a rider but support staff and this is just downright insulting to even bring up let alone use to justify the hiring of Leinders.
Brailfords clutching at straws here and taking the **** out of anyone who knows the game.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jul/11/dave-brailsford-team-sky?newsfeed=true

And then he tells us Gert ISNT at the tour!..go figure.
PS... I,d bet a large part of my insignificant fortune( that Gert was at the Tennerife training camp. Wonder if any one could confirm or was it total media lock down?

 

[thehog]

Someone said here the other week, might even have been you, that when looking for a new team, one looks at the medical program firstly. I think Porte knew exactly what he was doing.

That was me who said this.

All riders want to know about “enablement”.

It’s a package deal. Salary is generally a given but they want to know about what other “support” they’ll get in terms of medical staff and product selection. Porte would have had offers from several teams. He wanted to leave Saxo at the end of 2010. You’re right he choose Sky because he’d get the benefit of the “full package” and seeing how far he could push his talent. He’ll go shopping again end of 2013 and make sure he gets the same entitlements – exspect him to join GreenEdge with Matt “Del Morel” White making sure he gets the package deal.

If it was only about salary riders would join FDJ on 3 million euros and ride. The reason they go to Sky is they get 1.5million and the full back room deal.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Still on

Michelle Cound ‏@michellecound
Anybody else spot the rope-a-dope today or was it that convincing?? ))

Michelle Cound ‏@michellecound
for clarity rope-a-dope: strategies in which one party purposely puts itself in what appears to be a losing position

 

[Fergoose]

IMO Roger who's not so young and Porte have never been that strong , we are not talking calfornia or giro top 10 because of breakaway , we're talking about destroying the field whenever they want in the Tour de France.

We are talking about above average riders using the bulk of their daily energy supply on narrow windows on selected stages, and then facing the consequences on others stages.

- Stage 7 – big effort by Porte & Rogers (aged 32 - hardly Methusala)
- Stage 8 - both Rogers & Porte were AWOL
- Stage 10 - Porte gradually pulled back a Nibali who admitted he never put himself into the red once he saw the attack wasn't developing well. Rogers was largely rested on this stage.
- Stage 11 - Today Rogers ripped the peloton for maybe 10 minutes (?) going after an out of form Evans, but again it wasn't an otherworldly effort and on the entirity of the climb he'd roughly made up 45 seconds on the breakaway riders. Catching Cadel wasn't too difficult, as suggested by the returning breakaway riders who managed to keep up with his attack. Rogers' effort on the climb was arguably no more than TJVG’s for example. He was hardly busting a gut on the descent as others continued to re-attach themselves to the Wiggins group. Porte did well to hang in with Rogers today but had nothing to offer on the final climb. A slow stage that overran its time.

Does this prove Sky is clean? - no.
Are these performances at the top end of Porte & Rogers abilities? - yes.
Are they strong indications of a teamwide doping programme? - for me, no.

If Rogers and Porte had done a Stage 7 up the final climb today I'd have likely been jumping sides in this debate.

 

[mastersracer]

Ahhh.
.

This would carry more weight if those condemning Sky relentlessly in fast proliferating threads on this site offered any evidence for their view, attempted to contextualize Sky's performance in this year's field, and offered any way to square their views with the power data thread.

In other words, Sky are dominating a weak field, weakened by the fact that the top 2 contenders are absent, other teams have lost their GC riders due to crashes, and even a route that was intentionally designed not to give climbers an advantage. Froome is climbing well by pre-EPO standards, but markedly slower than 90s standards. So, the claim is that they are doping but with some agents that appear not to have much effect on performance. So, the claim is then that they are average riders who need this agent to perform at pre-EPO standards. Froome, Porte, Rogers - no palmares there!

In other words, their performance is not distinguishable from the null hypothesis that they are not doping or at least not using anything that isn't widely available to the rest of the peloton.

As for Froome's attack today, Pinot jumped on it - he's the youngest rider in the Tour, and he beat Froom at the line. Does he get a pass? That attack put Wiggins into trouble (he can thank the organizers for not including an HC finish this year). Think what Contador or A. Schleck would have done to Wiggins today. Look at the GC after this stage - riders like Zubeldia whose recent finishes were 45th, 27th and 16th is in 6th.

Finally, consider what Di Gregorio is charged with - injecting ozone. If anything, that shows that riders are getting desperate to find doping agents. The list of candidate agents Sky is supposedly using (gene therapy) is pure conspiracy theory. Doping agents have always had a random distribution in the peloton - no one team has had access to some secret agent, so how exactly is Sky dominating (albeit with a diluted agent that only makes you a good pro)?

 

[Benotti69]

How do you square that with his membership of Club Teide?

You cant. This GT team has been training and racing together for how long now? Since La Vuelta last year? If Froome was working with someone else Sky would know about it.

Maybe Froome and Rogers have responded the best to the 'training' and 'marginal gains', but what Leinders is doing is working very well.

I bet we see the same transparency from Sky as we do from UCI if they win this and are called out on it by someone with clout in the media, L'Equipe or a big German paper and the Guardian picks up on it in the UK.

 

[Galic Ho]

That's it for me.

Although this move was always doomed we owe Cadel for confirming beyond any doubt whatsoever that Sky is as dirty as all get out.

100% no doubt anymore. Hopefully this will convince the more conservative of cycling fans that they are being lied to.

I was too tired to watch last nights stage and couldn't care really. Already knew what was going to happen.

So, were Rogers and Porte there when Cadel dropped? That's the major tell. Everyone involved with pro cycling has known for a LONG time that Rogers has nothing on Evans. No one iota of talent over Cadel. If Rogers is there and Cadel was dropped, something is wrong. HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE. That's because their figures when young, like 20, have been known by many sports scientists Down Under. Evans is always the one they praise. He's the freak. The one with the genetic talent.

But it gets better. Froome puts Wigans into trouble. Yeah, this is going to end badly. Hope Nibali keeps pushing Wigans buttons. Milk that team SkyPED tension for all it is worth. Get Wigans to blow a gasket. Have him try and push hard on a descent. Might end it really quickly and save the race the disgrace.

The sad thing is, you remove the ITT times of Froome and Wigans and the time sheet looked relatively normal from Monday. Tejay's time was really high and odd, but he is a ITT specialist. All the specialists did well. Wigans time blows his older times out of the water. Way too fast. Way too strong. Froome...give me a break. The excuses dumped here by the apologists and fanboys are ludicrous. They're not trying. They're out of form. Really, Nibali improves per Evans and every major GC rival bar Sky, and he's out of form? The defending champ is out of form? Chavanel, stronger than ever with a new OPQS doctor is out of form? Cancellara, in an Olympic year with more prep time than Froome is out of form? Nah, reality is clear. Sky are doping on an entirely different level than everyone else.

Why? They cannot win without it. Wigans never had it talent wise. Granted, every pro rider is at the fine end of the bell curve, but he was NEVER amazing. Even in 2009, obvious doping on Garmin with Alan Lim, he was smoked. Couldn't keep up on the climbs that were raced. He was toyed with. So what does he do when at Sky? Tries to replicate. Knows he needs that level of power, the ability to toy with another rider whenever you want, if he is going to win the Tour. It's been detailed how the doctors changed after 2010. What was the crap year? 2010. 2011, the plan was to trial the program, ala, USPS in 1998 at the Vuelta. Worked. Working here. This is no shock to them. Maybe to a lot of us because we had given too much faith to Sky. Too much knowledge on how strong Wigans is clean. He never had it as a GC rider. Just like LA. Track is not 3 weeks on the road with high mountains and recuperation. Not even close. So this amazing unbelievable form has taken a lot by surprise. Put simply, we granted Wigans too much faith. He's actually had it soft. People should have been shouting louder a lot earlier because Sky are defying modern science and instinct right now. It's just not legit.

This is no shock to Sky. Neither is Froome. They've got something dangling over him to keep him in line. Probably the truth about brazharia or whatever his bogus blood disease is. I say it's mostly made up. Just like Emma O'Reilly revealed about LA, USPS and everyone on the team KNEW LA was going to win before the Tour started. They'd done the hard yards. The power numbers were so high, they knew at threshold, he was pushing 6.7W/kg easy and comparatively knew the opposition couldn't do it. They'd had Ferrari run the numbers based on climbs that year. Sky have known for a long time this was in the bag. The doctors guaranteed it.

Makes the truth worse. They've been lying with no remorse all season. Anyone there at SkyPED have a conscious? Any guilt or remorse? Nope, most are like Wiggins. Froome is hooked on his ability. Typically junkie doper mentality. Cannot just hold back. Has to try the power out. Wigans is mentally compromised by it, with a Napoleonic size ego to boot. Typically egocentric display of character. No remorse. No conscience and no moral conviction. Truth to people like him is that his desires matter above all else. No person can compare, no ideal, no belief. He is OWED this. It's his right. The rules don't matter. No method or avenue to achieve his self serving desire is ever left unturned. He really is the lowest common denominator. He goes down, call the suicide line and put him on watch. He's a coward. He either wins or goes out in a blaze of glory.